Syed's Mega-Thread

[Gila Guerilla]

So can "God do anything that he wants to ?
Are there any exceptions, (what can "God" NOT do) ?

does god have to respect the rules of logic?

YES indeed

god is a ENGINEER not a magician

god can not make human to live on the sun

if god want a creature to live on the sun, he have to create a non biological creature who could survived on the sun

god can not create a biological human without brain or heart

Is "God" omniscient? ..... (ie. Is "God" all knowing?)

god knows every single detail what is beneath the earth and over the earth and EVERY thing over our head and he also knows i am chatting with you RIGHT NOW but god does NOT know that i will kill some one or not because he gave me free-will to exercise

So "God is NOT omniscient ???

yes, as explain above

The Christian god is said to be omniscient. I would like to know, in your Muslim belief, just how much foreknowledge "God", as you understand "him", has.
As you are 57 years old, imagine back 100 hundred years, (ie. before you were born). Did "God" at that time know when in the future, you would be born ?
Further to that, does "God" now know when you will die, and how, (maybe of old age, cancer, heart failure or whatever else) ?

NO

i will explain about human death later

human death is VERY interesting in islam

Is "God" omnipresent? ... (ie. Is "God" everywhere?)

god is NOT everywhere BUT he have knowledge everything we do in our lives ( in the quran god said he is closer then our jugular vein )

Where could I go, (in theory), where "God" is NOT to be found ???

that place does not exist

I can't make sense of that, Syed. Everywhere means all the places that there are, wherever they are. If "God" is not everywhere, (ie. "God" is not in all the places that there are), there have to be some places where "God" is NOT.
I'm asking where is that ?
If the place that "God" is NOT to be found, does not exist, then surely "God" is everywhere.
You have told me that the place where "God" is NOT to be found, doesn't exist, and so, (different to what you've said), "he" IS omnipresent.
Can you please clarify, Syed ?

when we say that god is EVERYWHERE we mean that god has KNOWLEDGE of EVERYWHERE

we believe that god created EVERY THING that mean he have knowledge of everything

If "God" created the universe, and before "he" created it, there was nothing, then that is NOT engineering - it is surely magic?

And of course "God" cannot make a human to live on the sun, but I see no reason why a god could not make some kind of living thing that could live on the sun - I'm assuming that "God" is a better engineer than any human.

"God" also could not make a human to live at the bottom of the Pacific Ocean, it wouldn't be a human if it could live there; (I'm excluding humans that use engineered under-sea equipment to keep them alive). Also "God" cannot make a human able to fly - such a thing would be something else, like a bird or a bat, OR (dare I say it?), an angel.

If I make a picture, (maybe by painting it), it is not true to say that I know it - it can be stolen, sold, on-sold, altered by another painter etc.
Therefore being the creator of something does not necessarily mean that its creator has knowledge of it: T/F ? ( <== ie. Is what is say True or False?)

If "God" has to respect the rules of logic, then "he" is subject to those rules, and is not the most supreme, but is lesser than the rules of logic - yes?
I still don't know where "God" is present, if anywhere, except closer to each of us than our jugular veins.

In your belief, does it mean that "God" is looking about and seeing our jugular veins etc., so watch out, you can't have secrets from "him"?

I don't understand why, if what is meant is that: {"God" has knowledge so complete that he can see everything, even things as intimate as our jugular veins, and even more inmate}, you don't just say so, instead of that "he" is closer than the jugular vein.
I live in Australia, so I am closer to Sydney N.S.W., than you are, but that is all about where I am located, and not about what I can see or have knowledge about. I have less knowledge of Sydney than a professor of Geography in New York, but I am much closer to Sydney than (s)he is. Close or closer tells us about where something is!


"God" he does not know in advance about anything we do of our free will - as you said earlier.
I am still very keen to get to understand your position on "God's" omniscience. I get it that "God" can move every grain of sand, as you say, but does "God" know where all of the grains of sand will be at all times in the future?
If "he" doesn't know where all the grains of sand, (and all the atoms) are in advance, I presume that means that before moving any of them, he'll have to have a look at where they are, much like having a look at our jugular veins, (and everywhere else in the universe).

You still haven' explained fully what "God" does NOT know". OK - freewill, I got that, but what else does "God" NOT know, ie. what are the limits of "God's" knowledge? To say that "God" knows every single detail of what is beneath the earth and over the earth and EVERY thing over our head and he also knows I am chatting with you RIGHT NOW, only tells me some of the things that "God" does know. I'm after the limits, what does "God" NOT KNOW. To say that
"God" does NOT know that you will kill some one or not because you gave me free-will to exercise, only tells me one kind of thing that "God" does NOT know - I'm after the limits - ie. what else does "God NOT KNOW, (or is the freewill part the only thing that "God" does not know - that will define the limits) ?

Did "God" at that time know when in the future, you would be born ?
You spoke of death, but what of birth -as you are 57 years old, imagine back 100 hundred years, (ie. before you were born).
I'm after the limits, what does "God" NOT KNOW. Did "God" at that time know when in the future, you would be born ?

Yes please do tell me about human death in Islam.
And by the way, your English is good enough for me, and if I'm unsure of things you write, I'll surely ask for you to clarify.
Thanks, Syed.

 

[Brian63]

That is right. Also, that logic applies to not just the brain and heart, but to sooooooo many other things. So really, we can say:

if god can make human without [blank] its make no sense he gave us [blank].

For example then:

if god can make human without [diseases] its make no sense he gave us [diseases].

if god can make human without [pain and suffering] its make no sense he gave us [pain and suffering].

if god can make human without [stage IV cancer] its make no sense he gave us [stage IV cancer].

The list can go on and on much longer, besides just those examples. Your logic applies to not just the example you used though (brain and heart).

Brian

the purpose of human suffering and pain in this world is to make human a self learning creature as i understood

every science we developed because of to ease our suffering

If that was the case, then we should be appreciative for any suffering we endure, and we should not be trying to reduce it or eliminate it.

We need to suffer, in order for us to learn. There is no way for us to learn, unless our suffering is also included in the process.

Does not sound like an omnipotent god there, but rather a weak version of a god.

Brian

 

[Syed]

the purpose of human suffering and pain in this world is to make human a self learning creature as i understood

every science we developed because of to ease our suffering

If that was the case, then we should be appreciative for any suffering we endure, and we should not be trying to reduce it or eliminate it.

We need to suffer, in order for us to learn. There is no way for us to learn, unless our suffering is also included in the process.

Does not sound like an omnipotent god there, but rather a weak version of a god.

Brian

just imagine 10000 or 20000 years ago how much our ancestors suffered, trying to find food, safe place sleep, pain of sickness

today we know how to grow food, we can built safe home and we can cured MOST disease

now today we are built trains, ships, cars, planes, rockets, phone, computers, hospitals, schools, university, roads, satellites, internet and many more because of god made human a LEARNING creature and you preferred happy robotic human our self learning human

 

[Brian63]

Syed, you have a very massive misunderstanding of my actual point. You state, for instance, that:

now today we are built trains, ships, cars, planes, rockets, phone, computers, hospitals, schools, university, roads, satellites, internet and many more because of god made human a LEARNING creature and you preferred happy robotic human our self learning human

That is entirely wrong. I do not prefer "happy robotic human our self learning human" (though am guessing you meant to say "over" instead of "our" in that quote). What I am saying is that YOU CAN LEARN WITHOUT SUFFERING. Is is not that I prefer not learning....again, it is that YOU CAN LEARN WITHOUT SUFFERING. It is important that you try to understand this appropriately, if you want to understand us atheists better here.

Brian

 

[Syed]

Syed, you have a very massive misunderstanding of my actual point. You state, for instance, that:

now today we are built trains, ships, cars, planes, rockets, phone, computers, hospitals, schools, university, roads, satellites, internet and many more because of god made human a LEARNING creature and you preferred happy robotic human our self learning human

That is entirely wrong. I do not prefer "happy robotic human our self learning human" (though am guessing you meant to say "over" instead of "our" in that quote). What I am saying is that YOU CAN LEARN WITHOUT SUFFERING. Is is not that I prefer not learning....again, it is that YOU CAN LEARN WITHOUT SUFFERING. It is important that you try to understand this appropriately, if you want to understand us atheists better here.

Brian

tell me why would human learn about medicine when we dont have pain in our body?

 

[Juma]

Syed, you have a very massive misunderstanding of my actual point. You state, for instance, that:



That is entirely wrong. I do not prefer "happy robotic human our self learning human" (though am guessing you meant to say "over" instead of "our" in that quote). What I am saying is that YOU CAN LEARN WITHOUT SUFFERING. Is is not that I prefer not learning....again, it is that YOU CAN LEARN WITHOUT SUFFERING. It is important that you try to understand this appropriately, if you want to understand us atheists better here.

Brian

tell me why would human learn about medicine when we dont have pain in our body?

To undersrand how the body works.
We do a lot if research about the stars even though we dont "feel pain in the stars".

 

[barbos]

Could someone convince me that Syed is not somebody's cruel experiment in AI bot?

 

[DBT]

tell me why would human learn about medicine when we dont have pain in our body?

Do you need to experience being shot in order to understand that getting shot is not a good thing?

 

[bilby]

Could someone convince me that Syed is not somebody's cruel experiment in AI bot?

I'm pretty sure that there's very little reason for anyone to attempt to develop Artificial Stupidity.

 

[Brian63]

Syed, you have a very massive misunderstanding of my actual point. You state, for instance, that:



That is entirely wrong. I do not prefer "happy robotic human our self learning human" (though am guessing you meant to say "over" instead of "our" in that quote). What I am saying is that YOU CAN LEARN WITHOUT SUFFERING. Is is not that I prefer not learning....again, it is that YOU CAN LEARN WITHOUT SUFFERING. It is important that you try to understand this appropriately, if you want to understand us atheists better here.

Brian

tell me why would human learn about medicine when we dont have pain in our body?

Because we enjoy learning about the world that we live in.

If what you are saying here is correct though, then we should be grateful to god whenever we experience pain. Whenever a person describes how good their god is because their god relieved some pain they were experiencing, we know they are wrong. A good god inflicts pain on us instead.

Thanks for the clarification.

Brian

 

[Methinx]

A good god inflicts pain on us instead. Brian

To ready us for when God inflicts more pain...

 

[Syed]

syed
when we say that god is EVERYWHERE we mean that god has KNOWLEDGE of EVERYWHERE

we believe that god created EVERY THING that mean he have knowledge of everything

Originally Posted by Gila Guerilla
If "God" created the universe, and before "he" created it, there was nothing, then that is NOT engineering - it is surely magic?

NO
according to the quran BEFORE planets, sun, moon, stars, galaxies etc etc there was smokes in the space and god turned that smoke into physical universe

And of course "God" cannot make a human to live on the sun, but I see no reason why a god could not make some kind of living thing that could live on the sun - I'm assuming that "God" is a better engineer than any human.

yes he can but not biological creature made of blood and bone you know we need food,air and land to walk

will continue

 

[DBT]

tell me why would human learn about medicine when we dont have pain in our body?

Do you need to experience being shot in order to understand that getting shot is not a good thing?

Syed...no reply to this?

 

[Syed]

tell me why would human learn about medicine when we dont have pain in our body?

Do you need to experience being shot in order to understand that getting shot is not a good thing?

no because shot could kill you and cause painful death we experience from watching other people

 

[Syed]

Originally Posted by Gila Guerilla
If I make a picture, (maybe by painting it), it is not true to say that I know it - it can be stolen, sold, on-sold, altered by another painter etc.
Therefore being the creator of something does not necessarily mean that its creator has knowledge of it: T/F ? ( <== ie. Is what is say True or False?)

i dont know how does evolution work. but god is ALL knowing that mean god knows how does elements behave or react so god does not create based on trial and error like human engineer do

If "God" has to respect the rules of logic, then "he" is subject to those rules, and is not the most supreme, but is lesser than the rules of logic - yes?

i dont understand the question

I still don't know where "God" is present, if anywhere, except closer to each of us than our jugular veins.

that is another subject i will explain later

will continue

 

[Syed]

Originally Posted by Gila Guerilla
"God" he does not know in advance about anything we do of our free will - as you said earlier.
I am still very keen to get to understand your position on "God's" omniscience. I get it that "God" can move every grain of sand, as you say, but does "God" know where all of the grains of sand will be at all times in the future?

i dont thing that god care to know every single grain where are they

You still haven' explained fully what "God" does NOT know". OK - freewill, I got that, but what else does "God" NOT know, ie. what are the limits of "God's" knowledge?

god only does not know is SINGLE INDIVIDUAL future action ( free will)

I'm after the limits - ie. what else does "God NOT KNOW, (or is the freewill part the only thing that "God" does not know - that will define the limits) ?

god knows EVERY THING there is to know except SINGLE INDIVIDUAL future action ( free will)

Did "God" at that time know when in the future, you would be born ?

i dont think so

Yes please do tell me about human death in Islam.

yes i will its a big subject

 

[Gila Guerilla]

i dont thing that god care to know every single grain where are they

You still haven' explained fully what "God" does NOT know". OK - freewill, I got that, but what else does "God" NOT know, ie. what are the limits of "God's" knowledge?

god only does not know is SINGLE INDIVIDUAL future action ( free will)

Whether "God" cares about where every grain of sand is or not, does not come into it. I know lots of things that I don't really care about, but I still know them.

If "God" has the power to move things, (eg. when they are in the form of a mountain, or the moon or anything else), then "he" has to know where they are.
Therefore, it is important to me to understand in what way he knows where they all are. I see at least two possibilities:-

1. "he" knows where they were/are/will be at all times in the past, present and future, (due to omniscience);
2. "he" must scan the universe to locate them, whenever he wants to move some*.

* If "God" makes a plan to move some grains of sand - metaphor for mountain, moon, tree, elephant - "he" has to know where to find those grains - maybe atoms/molecules.

Of interest is whether possibility 1. or possibility 2. applies, or some other possibilty; which is it ?

I'm after the limits - ie. what else does "God NOT KNOW, (or is the freewill part the only thing that "God" does not know - that will define the limits) ?

god knows EVERY THING there is to know except SINGLE INDIVIDUAL future action ( free will).

If as you say: {god knows EVERY THING there is to know except SINGLE INDIVIDUAL future action}, then the only future thing which "God" does NOT KNOW is: SINGLE INDIVIDUAL action, (freewill).

Therefore "God" knows every other thing about the future, and that includes the location of every grain of sand, and every molecule and atom.

Whether "God" cares to know where every single grain or atom or molecule is located, from now and into the future, is not what I am asking.

The question is does "God" have that knowledge, (about the future)? Your answer tells me that "he" does, (freewill actions excluded).

Did "God" at that time know when in the future, you would be born ?
I dont think so.

Why not?

Yes please do tell me about human death in Islam.
yes i will its a big subject

Well try to keep it as short and simple as you can, thanks Syed.

 

[Syed]

i dont thing that god care to know every single grain where are they
god only does not know is SINGLE INDIVIDUAL future action ( free will)

Whether "God" cares about where every grain of sand is or not, does not come into it. I know lots of things that I don't really care about, but I still know them.

If "God" has the power to move things, (eg. when they are in the form of a mountain, or the moon or anything else), then "he" has to know where they are.
Therefore, it is important to me to understand in what way he knows where they all are. I see at least two possibilities:-

1. "he" knows where they were/are/will be at all times in the past, present and future, (due to omniscience);
2. "he" must scan the universe to locate them, whenever he wants to move some*.

* If "God" makes a plan to move some grains of sand - metaphor for mountain, moon, tree, elephant - "he" has to know where to find those grains - maybe atoms/molecules.

Of interest is whether possibility 1. or possibility 2. applies, or some other possibilty; which is it ?

I'm after the limits - ie. what else does "God NOT KNOW, (or is the freewill part the only thing that "God" does not know - that will define the limits) ?

god knows EVERY THING there is to know except SINGLE INDIVIDUAL future action ( free will).

If as you say: {god knows EVERY THING there is to know except SINGLE INDIVIDUAL future action}, then the only future thing which "God" does NOT KNOW is: SINGLE INDIVIDUAL action, (freewill).

Therefore "God" knows every other thing about the future, and that includes the location of every grain of sand, and every molecule and atom.

Whether "God" cares to know where every single grain or atom or molecule is located, from now and into the future, is not what I am asking.

The question is does "God" have that knowledge, (about the future)? Your answer tells me that "he" does, (freewill actions excluded).

Did "God" at that time know when in the future, you would be born ?
I dont think so.

Why not?

Yes please do tell me about human death in Islam.
yes i will its a big subject

Well try to keep it as short and simple as you can, thanks Syed.

i have nothing more to say above your questions

i will move on to human death in islam

 

[DBT]

Do you need to experience being shot in order to understand that getting shot is not a good thing?

no because shot could kill you and cause painful death we experience from watching other people

OK, so we don't need to experience something in order to understand and learn about what the experience means and its implications. Pain and suffering being entirely unnecessary for learning.

 

[Syed]

no because shot could kill you and cause painful death we experience from watching other people

OK, so we don't need to experience something in order to understand and learn about what the experience means and its implications. Pain and suffering being entirely unnecessary for learning.

we invented MRI and all medical and chemical industries worth 1000s of trillions dollars to stop suffering not for knowledge