Syria bombings.

[whichphilosophy]

ISIS was bound to happen as long as Iran and Saudi Arabia kept fiddling as the Arab world burned. America and the west, Russia and China in the east, and neutral industrial nations are at the mercy of these players as long as petro energy dominates supplies. Without going to war ourselves we can't control events in the ME. We are bringing it to a boil with our polluting the atmosphere and increasing temperatures there beyond tolerable limits.

It come down to do we want to dominate or do we want to survive. I expect most want to survive and dominate, but, that isn't possible. So until we choose survive we're at risk of being reduced to the stone age by our fiddling around. ... and now the west has Trump and Brexit nationalism, or tribalism, dominating just like Russia has it in their master model. Stand by kids. you're gonna see some real fireworks.

Happy Thanksgiving all.

What you are stating is the 'justification' used to invade these countries. The objection was to fair trade where Libya started the ball rolling by nationalizing foreign oil companies. The other followed suit, but still cooperated with these countries. The US funded Saddam to invade Iran which was a perceived danger.

ISIS and its earlier allies were only bound to happen when the allies removed the repressive regimes that kept them down (Libya, Iraq and Syria). Where the armies of these countries were removed, ISIS quickly filled the void.

The US violated historical lessons by sacking Saddam's whole army, thus throwing the country into chaos as Al Qaeda and earlier groups took over. The Syrian regime is hated by the extremists because it separated church from state tolerate minority religions and women have a certain amount of human rights. Of course several people were imprisoned in that country and is quite oppressive for those who disagree with the government.

Libya had free healthcare, education, electricity, 0% loans for citizens home loans and almost eliminated poverty and provided fresh drinking water to the population. Polygamy was discouraged where a married couple were given a grant of US$50,000.00. It had a form of democracy through people's committees but without political parties. It was not an ideal nation but our intervention left this country worse off.

I think that the US has to appreciate that Russia moved the missiles from Cuba around 53 years ago and it would be beneficial for the US allies and Russia have international terrorism to deal with. As for these dictatorships nothing was achieved by creating something worse than it was, but allowing the extremists to fill the void.

What you are describing is the Stone age mentality of survival. We've already seen a lot of fireworks thanks to the US arms shipments and bombing support.

 

[Will Wiley]

Almost 24 hours after the fact and still no comment here about the bombing?

Why?

No one has any opinion?

This Forum too anti-Obama to praise his actions?

People too scared to say what they think, remembering the debacle of Bush's "Mission Accomplished"?

Here goes then.

Well done Obama and the USA. High time to do what you are doing. Keep it up.

Which bombing are you referring to?

 

[Jayjay]

Almost 24 hours after the fact and still no comment here about the bombing?

Why?

No one has any opinion?

This Forum too anti-Obama to praise his actions?

People too scared to say what they think, remembering the debacle of Bush's "Mission Accomplished"?

Here goes then.

Well done Obama and the USA. High time to do what you are doing. Keep it up.

Which bombing are you referring to?

Presumably this one: http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/22/world/meast/u-s-airstrikes-isis-syria/

 

[Will Wiley]

Which bombing are you referring to?

Presumably this one: http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/22/world/meast/u-s-airstrikes-isis-syria/

Thank you Jayjay...hope all is well with you.

 

[Will Wiley]

Almost 24 hours after the fact and still no comment here about the bombing?

Why?

No one has any opinion?

.[/B]

I looked on google news and saw nothing about this when I searched. The US's strategy in Syria seems impossible to make sense of if they really were against ISIS. Who are the people who have been actively stopping this happening before? It's not ordinary Americans who are appalled by ISIS.
It's fuckwits ,like Hillary Clinton. America has been very publicly embarrassed on this issue by Russia. I meet a lot of ordinary Americans.

America has been punished with 4 years of Donald Trump. Hopefully by the end of it they wont want another Hillary as President.

 

[skepticalbip]

Almost 24 hours after the fact and still no comment here about the bombing?

Why?

No one has any opinion?

This Forum too anti-Obama to praise his actions?

People too scared to say what they think, remembering the debacle of Bush's "Mission Accomplished"?

Here goes then.

Well done Obama and the USA. High time to do what you are doing. Keep it up.

I'm still trying to figure out what the administration's position is now, what their new long term plan is. Up until a few days ago, the administration was threatening to declare a no-fly-zone to keep the Russians and Syrians from bombing the insurgents which the generals tried, seeming unsuccessfully at the time, to explain to them would be equivalent to declaring war with both Russia and Syria.

Personally, I would prefer to just let Russia and Syria take care of the problem. They are capable except that the US was busy blocking them and neither of those countries wanted a war with the US. Does this administration change of heart mean that we are now allied with Russia in eliminating ISIS? I think that could be a good move.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I dare say, I think the obsession with removing Assad was something Clinton and some of her allies were pushing for most. Her defeat in the election and the fact that she won't be taking office any time soon probably gave Obama more room to maneuver. I would guess he figured out that an Assad victory is preferable to the chaotic situation that would emerge if he was defeated, or even preferable in some ways to an FSA victory that doesn't also leave the door open for an ISIS resurgence. So refocussing on crushing ISIS and leaving Assad alone is... well, the least wrong choice other than "stay out of it."

To quote one of my favorite books: "You don't have a 'right thing.' You've got a whole bucket of 'less wrong.'"

 

[J842P]

I dare say, I think the obsession with removing Assad was something Clinton and some of her allies were pushing for most. Her defeat in the election and the fact that she won't be taking office any time soon probably gave Obama more room to maneuver. I would guess he figured out that an Assad victory is preferable to the chaotic situation that would emerge if he was defeated, or even preferable in some ways to an FSA victory that doesn't also leave the door open for an ISIS resurgence. So refocussing on crushing ISIS and leaving Assad alone is... well, the least wrong choice other than "stay out of it."

To quote one of my favorite books: "You don't have a 'right thing.' You've got a whole bucket of 'less wrong.'"

Yes. I too agree it was the Clinton faction that was pushing to topple Assad. Given the pressure on his own side, I can only commend Obama for how he has handled the situation.

 

[whichphilosophy]

Almost 24 hours after the fact and still no comment here about the bombing?

Why?

No one has any opinion?

This Forum too anti-Obama to praise his actions?

People too scared to say what they think, remembering the debacle of Bush's "Mission Accomplished"?

Here goes then.

Well done Obama and the USA. High time to do what you are doing. Keep it up.

I'm still trying to figure out what the administration's position is now, what their new long term plan is. Up until a few days ago, the administration was threatening to declare a no-fly-zone to keep the Russians and Syrians from bombing the insurgents which the generals tried, seeming unsuccessfully at the time, to explain to them would be equivalent to declaring war with both Russia and Syria.

Personally, I would prefer to just let Russia and Syria take care of the problem. They are capable except that the US was busy blocking them and neither of those countries wanted a war with the US. Does this administration change of heart mean that we are now allied with Russia in eliminating ISIS? I think that could be a good move.

They should be allied against ISIS which filled the vacuum in areas which the Government lost control but the US is more committed to removing Assad. Better still it would have been easier if this war was not started in the first place.

 

[barbos]

No-Fly zone "idea" was WTF moment for me. If I am not mistaken it was not just Clinton, some generals mentioned it too. I still can't wrap my mind around it.

 

[skepticalbip]

No-Fly zone "idea" was WTF moment for me. If I am not mistaken it was not just Clinton, some generals mentioned it too. I still can't wrap my mind around it.

It was a WTF moment for me too.

You aren't mistaken because, by Clinton, people mean the Clinton faction. Clinton was one of the leaders of the faction that continued to push for a confrontational stance against Russia but the faction included at least one general and several Senators and Representatives. Unfortunately, that faction seems to have had way too much influence in administration policy. They seem to have also had undue influence in media bias and NATO.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

No-Fly zone "idea" was WTF moment for me. If I am not mistaken it was not just Clinton, some generals mentioned it too. I still can't wrap my mind around it.

It was a WTF moment for me too.

You aren't mistaken because, by Clinton, people mean the Clinton faction. Clinton was one of the leaders of the faction that continued to push for a confrontational stance against Russia but the faction included at least one general and several Senators and Representatives. Unfortunately, that faction seems to have had way too much influence in administration policy. They seem to have also had undue influence in media bias and NATO.

That was a MAJOR problem I had with Clinton, to be honest. She was closely aligned with some of the hawkish military adventurers who were constantly running their cute little wargame scenarios for "What will we do when we have to go to war with Russia and/or China?" The same crowd that pushed for the F-22 more then a decade after we no longer needed it and then pushed the F-35 more than TWO decades after we stopped needing it, all because we need the "next generation" weapon system to compete with fucking China for some reason. The same faction that floods the media with messages about how war with China is totally going to be a thing some day, how Russia is still the enemy, how Ukraine/Crimea is the worst thing that's ever happened and totally involves us, and how we should all be really pissed off at Russia for messing with some country none of us give a shit about over a claim to some natural resources we were never really going to exploit.

If literally ANYONE but Donald Trump had been running against her, I wouldn't have bothered voting at all (well, except maybe David Duke but still)

 

[barbos]

Looks like Aleppo could be free of terrorists in a matter of days now. And Kerry is desperate to stop it by offering a deal where US agrees to finally separate Al-Qaeda from "moderate opposition" whatever it is. Germans threaten Russia with new sanctions. This world is insane.

I think US is more interested in preventing Russia from claiming some kind of success in ME than anything else. US just can't have Putin getting any kind of credit for anything and if never ending Syrian civil war and US support of Al-Qaeda is a price for that then US would gladly pay it.

 

[Will Wiley]

Looks like Aleppo could be free of terrorists in a matter of days now. And Kerry is desperate to stop it by offering a deal where US agrees to finally separate Al-Qaeda from "moderate opposition" whatever it is. Germans threaten Russia with new sanctions. This world is insane.

I think US is more interested in preventing Russia from claiming some kind of success in ME than anything else. US just can't have Putin getting any kind of credit for anything and if never ending Syrian civil war and US support of Al-Qaeda is a price for that then US would gladly pay it.

I doubt it is even a concern about giving Putin credit. They have had an obsession about removing Assad for a long time. I don't even know if anyone knows why. There have been many theories as to why.
John Kerry may not even know why. He, as an example wants to do it but lacks the conviction of someone who knows why. America has been determined to some degree but in the end have been unable to muster the conviction or will to actually do it.
They hope that they can threaten and bluster and that Russia and others will fall into line. But the threat to Russia is too great if that area descends into chaos. Russia is committed, America finds that it doesn't really have any conviction about why it causes so much death and destruction in the middle east

 

[barbos]

Looks like Aleppo could be free of terrorists in a matter of days now. And Kerry is desperate to stop it by offering a deal where US agrees to finally separate Al-Qaeda from "moderate opposition" whatever it is. Germans threaten Russia with new sanctions. This world is insane.

I think US is more interested in preventing Russia from claiming some kind of success in ME than anything else. US just can't have Putin getting any kind of credit for anything and if never ending Syrian civil war and US support of Al-Qaeda is a price for that then US would gladly pay it.

I doubt it is even a concern about giving Putin credit. They have had an obsession about removing Assad for a long time. I don't even know if anyone knows why. There have been many theories as to why.
John Kerry may not even know why. He, as an example wants to do it but lacks the conviction of someone who knows why. America has been determined to some degree but in the end have been unable to muster the conviction or will to actually do it.
They hope that they can threaten and bluster and that Russia and others will fall into line. But the threat to Russia is too great if that area descends into chaos. Russia is committed, America finds that it doesn't really have any conviction about why it causes so much death and destruction in the middle east

I think it's bigger than simple obsession with Assad. It's about Russia now.
As for giving credit to Putin they would have little choice, when civilians in Aleppo start thanking Putin and Assad.

 

[Jayjay]

I doubt it is even a concern about giving Putin credit. They have had an obsession about removing Assad for a long time. I don't even know if anyone knows why. There have been many theories as to why.
John Kerry may not even know why. He, as an example wants to do it but lacks the conviction of someone who knows why. America has been determined to some degree but in the end have been unable to muster the conviction or will to actually do it.
They hope that they can threaten and bluster and that Russia and others will fall into line. But the threat to Russia is too great if that area descends into chaos. Russia is committed, America finds that it doesn't really have any conviction about why it causes so much death and destruction in the middle east

I think it's bigger than simple obsession with Assad. It's about Russia now.
As for giving credit to Putin they would have little choice, when civilians in Aleppo start thanking Putin and Assad.

Sure that's going to happen any minute now. Just like the people of London could not wait to thank Germany for the Blitz.

 

[barbos]

I think it's bigger than simple obsession with Assad. It's about Russia now.
As for giving credit to Putin they would have little choice, when civilians in Aleppo start thanking Putin and Assad.

Sure that's going to happen any minute now. Just like the people of London could not wait to thank Germany for the Blitz.

I understand that is very unpleasant to lose to someone like Putin, but this is what is happening with regards to Syria. US approach not only completely failed but russians won. Desperate attempts from Kerry is nothing but admission.

 

[Jayjay]

Sure that's going to happen any minute now. Just like the people of London could not wait to thank Germany for the Blitz.

I understand that is very unpleasant to lose to someone like Putin, but this is what is happening with regards to Syria. US approach not only completely failed but but russians won. Desperate attempts from Kerry is nothing but admission.

The Russians did win, I'm not denying that. But that's a far cry from the people of Aleppo thanking Russia and Assad for bombing their city to rubble.

 

[barbos]

I understand that is very unpleasant to lose to someone like Putin, but this is what is happening with regards to Syria. US approach not only completely failed but but russians won. Desperate attempts from Kerry is nothing but admission.

The Russians did win, I'm not denying that. But that's a far cry from the people of Aleppo thanking Russia and Assad for bombing their city to rubble.

You honestly believe that people who survived living under terrorists will complain about that? I suspect they will blame it on terrorists.
And what do you think Kerry is desperately trying to accomplish now?

 

[Jayjay]

The Russians did win, I'm not denying that. But that's a far cry from the people of Aleppo thanking Russia and Assad for bombing their city to rubble.

You honestly believe that people who survived living under terrorists will complain about that? I suspect they will blame it on terrorists.
And what do you think Kerry is desperately trying to accomplish now?

Kerry is not going to be on the job that long so my guess is nothing besides rhetoric. But if you think people that have been living under constant bombing will blame the people who fight the ones bombing them, you are deluded. That has never happened happened before, and will not happen now.