Texas Secessionists Push for Referendum on State Becoming Independent

[TomC]

That's not all that happened, though...

And the reason you know more about this than I do is what..?

Don't you live somewhere that up is down and summer is winter?
I'm pretty sure you do.
Tom

 

[ZiprHead]

That's not all that happened, though...

And the reason you know more about this than I do is what..?

Don't you live somewhere that up is down and summer is winter?
I'm pretty sure you do.
Tom

Strange. I don't remember history changing depending on which hemisphere you live in.

 

[bilby]

And the reason you know more about this than I do is what..?

Presumably because I am better educated than you.

 

[TomC]

And the reason you know more about this than I do is what..?

Presumably because I am better educated than you.

How Christian of you.
Tom

 

[pood]

Your rapidly wandering goalpost is noted,

"rapidly wandering goalpost"?

I keep pointing out that the Confederate States were invaded by the northerners.

That's what happened.
Tom

To hear you tell it, one might think that the United States and the so-called Confederate States were always two separate countries and one day the U.S.A. just upped and decided to invade and conquer the C.S.A.

 

[pood]

And yet oddly Fort Sumter, attacked by the Confederates, was a United States fort.

Odd, that.

 

[TomC]

Your rapidly wandering goalpost is noted,

"rapidly wandering goalpost"?

I keep pointing out that the Confederate States were invaded by the northerners.

That's what happened.
Tom

To hear you tell it, one might think that the United States and the so-called Confederate States were always two separate countries and one day the U.S.A. just upped and decided to invade and conquer the C.S.A.

I'm sure you think that.

It isn't true. But I'm sure you really, truly, believe that I did.

Oh well. It's what I've come to expect from history revisionists.
Tom

 

[pood]

Oh, and then there is this, from the Articles of Confederation, which predated the Constitution:

And the Articles of this confederation shall be inviolably observed by every state, and the union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them, unless such alteration be agreed to in a congress of the united states, and be afterwards con-firmed by the legislatures of every state.

Bold by me.

So let’s please drop this nonsense that the North warred on the South. The Confederates warred on the United States, full stop.

 

[pood]

Your rapidly wandering goalpost is noted,

"rapidly wandering goalpost"?

I keep pointing out that the Confederate States were invaded by the northerners.

That's what happened.
Tom

To hear you tell it, one might think that the United States and the so-called Confederate States were always two separate countries and one day the U.S.A. just upped and decided to invade and conquer the C.S.A.

I'm sure you think that.

It isn't true. But I'm sure you really, truly, believe that I did.

Oh well. It's what I've come to expect from history revisionists.
Tom

What do I think that isn’t true? Be specific. It’s not true that you imply that the North and the South were always separate countries? I think you do imply that. If you did not mean to imply that, then by logic you must agree with me that the so-called Confederates States made war on their own country, which was the United States of America. I refer you to the Articles of Confederation, quoted aboe. Please note the PERPETUAL UNION part.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

It's what I've come to expect from history revisionists.

Projecting much?

 

[pood]

Moreover, Lincoln adhered to the exact letter and spirit of the founding documents, which was: No state or states could get out of the union, absent the consent of all the other states. He likened it to a contract. One side cannot legally break the contract, but both sides could consent to dissolve it. The North did not consent to break the contract. Hence, the South were the aggressors. QED.

 

[Oleg]

Oh, and then there is this, from the Articles of Confederation, which predated the Constitution:

And the Articles of this confederation shall be inviolably observed by every state, and the union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them, unless such alteration be agreed to in a congress of the united states, and be afterwards con-firmed by the legislatures of every state.

Bold by me.

So let’s please drop this nonsense that the North warred on the South. The Confederates warred on the United States, full stop.

Eh, the reason none of the Confederates were charged with treason is because the Constitution had no prohibition on states leaving.

 

[pood]

Oh, and then there is this, from the Articles of Confederation, which predated the Constitution:

And the Articles of this confederation shall be inviolably observed by every state, and the union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them, unless such alteration be agreed to in a congress of the united states, and be afterwards con-firmed by the legislatures of every state.

Bold by me.

So let’s please drop this nonsense that the North warred on the South. The Confederates warred on the United States, full stop.

Eh, the reason none of the Confederates were charged with treason is because the Constitution had no prohibition on states leaving.

The Union, as Lincoln pointed out, is older than the Constituion, and the Articles clearly forbade secession. The Constitution only strengthened the Union, by federalizing it. The founding documents are plain, both explicitly and implicitly: breaking up the union can only occur on the consent of all the states bound to the union’s compact. Hece the Confederates were never attacked by anyone, but waged war on the United States

 

[marc]

I keep pointing out that the Confederate States were invaded by the northerners.

That's what happened.

Yes, exactly.

Just like how Russia was invaded by Ukraine when Ukrainians attacked the lands that Russia had declared to be theirs a year ago.

 

[laughing dog]

Oh, and then there is this, from the Articles of Confederation, which predated the Constitution:

And the Articles of this confederation shall be inviolably observed by every state, and the union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them, unless such alteration be agreed to in a congress of the united states, and be afterwards con-firmed by the legislatures of every state.

Bold by me.

So let’s please drop this nonsense that the North warred on the South. The Confederates warred on the United States, full stop.

Eh, the reason none of the Confederates were charged with treason is because the Constitution had no prohibition on states leaving.

That is simply incorrect. President Lincoln pardoned a number of notable confederate leaders. President Andrew Johnson gave unconditional pardons to all confederates.

It seems to me that this side discussion is evidence for this thread -
The failure of American public schools to teach children the truth regarding our history

 

[Oleg]

That is simply incorrect. President Lincoln pardoned a number of notable confederate leaders. President Andrew Johnson gave unconditional pardons to all confederates.

Of course he did. It was far too risky to take any of them trial because the Consititution didn't forbid a state from leaving. If any of them had prevailed, the Confederate cause would be deemed legitimate.

The Trial of the Century That Wasn't

The case against Jefferson Davis, the president of the Confederacy, would have been a legal showdown of the ages

www.smithsonianmag.com

In 1867, he was prepared to argue that he did not betray the country because once Mississippi left it, he was no longer a U.S. citizen. “Everybody thought it was going to be the test case on the legality of secession,” says Cynthia Nicoletti, a University of Virginia legal scholar whose book Secession on Trial is due out in August. Serious people believed he had a chance of winning.

President Andrew Johnson took no chances. On Christmas Day 1868, he pardoned former Confederates from the crime of treason, thwarting vengeful Northerners, Lost Cause Southerners and headline writers all over the country.

 

[Bomb#20]

The northern army invaded the Confederacy because U.S. was far more about States than United.

Yeah, having a fort attacked had nothing to do with it.

You mean
A fort in the midst of Charleston Harbor?

We're talking here about the fort South Carolina owned, that South Carolina voluntarily donated to the federal government back in 1836, because South Carolina didn't want to pay for maintenance any more? How do you figure taking it back wasn't plain theft?

What do you think that the invaders were doing there?

Sitting on their asses. So how do you figure sitting on your ass the same place you've been all along magically makes you an "invader" whenever some politician draws a line on a map and declares your chair to be in a different country from the country it was in five minutes ago? To be an "invader" you have to invade. To invade, you have to cross a border. Having a border cross you is not invading.

Having a picnic?

If Jefferson Davis had been smarter that's exactly what they would have been defined to be doing. Instead of firing on them, the wise strategy would have been to invite the federal troops to stay in the fort as the honored guests of South Carolina, and bring them all the food they needed for their extended picnic. (But block resupply from the north.) Eventually the feds would have evacuated their men. But southern hospitality went up against southern pride, and hospitality lost. Expensive mistake.

 

[Bomb#20]

The Union, as Lincoln pointed out, is older than the Constituion, and the Articles clearly forbade secession. The Constitution only strengthened the Union, by federalizing it. The founding documents are plain, both explicitly and implicitly: breaking up the union can only occur on the consent of all the states bound to the union’s compact.

The Articles are no longer law of the land. The Constitution not only strengthened the Union by federalizing it but also by getting rid of its unanimity requirements. (Poland got partitioned out of existence because its unanimity requirements weakened it so much.) It's not clear how many states would need to consent in order for Texas to get to leave, but surely 3/4 would be enough.

 

[laughing dog]

That is simply incorrect. President Lincoln pardoned a number of notable confederate leaders. President Andrew Johnson gave unconditional pardons to all confederates.

Of course he did. It was far too risky to take any of them trial because the Consititution didn't forbid a state from leaving. If any of them had prevailed, the Confederate cause would be deemed legitimate….

Treason includes taking arms against your country. Treason is mentioned in the Constitution.

Anyone can make a legal argument. Davis’s argument is ridiculous because if taken seriously means anyone could declare their piece of land a country which makes them not a citizen and that current US laws don’t apply.

Pardons were given to help heal the country and because it was impractical to try every confederate soldier.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Asking when did a Southern soldier invade a Northern home, but then expressing incredulity by framing things in terms of state entities that were either north or south and acting at a state level is a bit of a false dichotomy, but also looking at the wrong level of entity for the claim. Between the most Northern states and most Southern were border states where there was chaos and violence. The Southern strategy was also initial aggression followed by defense, but there were exceptions.

West Virginia and Kentucky

Recall West Virginia separated itself from Virginia and officially took a pro-Union position, but a full 1/3 of its citizens were either pro-slavery or pro-Confederate. Nearby Kentucky was more pro-Union. Recall level of violence from Hatfield and McCoy feud...More on Kentucky...

Wiki

Kentucky, being a border state, was among the chief places where the "Brother against brother" scenario was prevalent. Southern sympathizers in Kentucky had already seceded[2] and joined the Confederacy,[3] but had been unable to enforce their rule over the state's territory. Kentucky officially declared its neutrality at the beginning of the war, but after Confederate General Leonidas Polk unwisely decided to occupy Columbus in 1861, the legislature petitioned the Union Army for assistance. After early 1862 Kentucky came largely under Union control. But Kentucky also had a star on the Confederate flag, and seats in the Confederate Congress.

There would have been all kinds of violence in border states, within states, anger, ...

Fort Sumter

Fort Sumter already mentioned as a Confederate aggression.

The southern strategy was to seize federal forts and defend because they had a slave economy, not a manufacturing economy.

Washington, D.C.

Wiki

The strenuous effort failed, and the war started in April 1861.

At first, it looked as if neighboring Virginia would remain in the Union. When it unexpectedly voted for secession, there was a serious danger that the divided state of Maryland would do the same, which would totally surround the capital with enemy states. President Abraham Lincoln’s act in jailing Maryland's pro-slavery leaders without trial saved the capital from that fate.

Faced with an open rebellion that had turned hostile, Lincoln began organizing a military force to protect Washington. The Confederates desired to occupy Washington and massed to take it. On April 10 forces began to trickle into the city. On April 19, the Baltimore riot threatened the arrival of further reinforcements. Andrew Carnegie led the building of a railroad that circumvented Baltimore, allowing soldiers to arrive on April 25, thereby saving the capital.

The capital became well-defended. Later in the war...

The capital's defenses, for the most part, deterred the Confederate Army from attacking. One notable exception was during the Battle of Fort Stevens on July 11–12, 1864 in which Union soldiers repelled troops under the command of Confederate Lieutenant General Jubal A. Early. That battle was the first time since the War of 1812 that a U.S. president came under enemy fire in wartime when Lincoln visited the fort to observe the fighting.

Maryland and Pennsylvania

Maryland was a fairly pro-slavery state but stayed with Union. The Confederacy invaded Maryland fought bloodiest battle of the war, Antietam.

The South wanted foreign help because of their resource problem. They thought a big win in Pennsylvania would convince Frenchies to assist. That is one reason why Gettysburg was invaded by the Confederacy. Another reason was to make the North lose morale.

During this further Confederate aggression, they forced white Union civilians to give up property and livestock, reimbursing with unwanted Confederate money. Black Union civilians, on the other hand,--free people--were sent South to become property. More rape and murder.

That's aggression against the North, including civilians, isn't it?