The Bible And Slavery

[DBT]

Perhaps a fundraising drive to buy Steve a tablet?

If one of you knows how to reach him, I think they would be a good idea. Why don't one of you start a thread in the lounge, check out how much money would be needed to buy him a tablet etc. Do any of you know how to reach him in the place where he lives?

It would be great to do, but I only know what rousseau said. Perhaps somebody here knows him personally.

 

[Jarhyn]

Yes. But he has a good mind. I want to see him come back, personally ._.

No, there's been a mistake. I'm still here!

Sorry, who were you talking about?

An older poster, steve. The quality of many of his posts was only exceeded by the number of errors therein, owing
mostly to his wizened state, IIRC.

Of course I may be remembering him over fondly?

 

[Bomb#20]

Is it theft/stealing if a person sells themself into slavery - servitude?

Nope. It's not the sale or the service that's stealing; it's the compulsion that's stealing.

Well, in that case governments all over the world 'condone' slavery. (Compulsory work.)

Work or starve. Work or go to jail, Work or find somewhere else to sleep at night.

Um, so when caveman Thag goes out to hunt and gather, and caveman Zog sleeps in and goofs off all day, and Thag eats the food he found, and Zog says "Gimme some.", and Thag says "Go hunt and gather your own damn food.", and Zog says "Work or starve! That's what you're telling me! You're a slave-driver! Help, help, I'm being repressed!", your theory is that Zog is right? The only way for Zog not to qualify as a slave is for Thag to have to work for Zog for nothing?

 

[Jarhyn]

Well, in that case governments all over the world 'condone' slavery. (Compulsory work.)

Work or starve. Work or go to jail, Work or find somewhere else to sleep at night.

Um, so when caveman Thag goes out to hunt and gather, and caveman Zog sleeps in and goofs off all day, and Thag eats the food he found, and Zog says "Gimme some.", and Thag says "Go hunt and gather your own damn food.", and Zog says "Work or starve! That's what you're telling me! You're a slave-driver! Help, help, I'm being repressed!", your theory is that Zog is right? The only way for Zog not to qualify as a slave is for Thag to have to work for Zog for nothing?

He's mad because humans haven't fully mitigated the need for work, if that's the case. God is the one who made the work compulsory, and by that measure that would make god the ultimate slaver.

But I don't buy it. The difference between a slave and a free man is that a free man is fully free to decide upon his own goals, even to not work and starve and die without pain or punishment beyond what they incur as natural consequence's.

That is not a slave. Certainly, the person who does no work and dies is an idiot, but they are not the slave of anyone but themselves and their own goals and principles. They can pick up a book. They WILL get exposed to the standard body of "useful information" in schools. They will be shown the models for critical thinking. Apparently they don't all sink in though, which is a real shame.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Don't christians want to be enslaved by their god? Isn't this their perfect existence? Do they really want free time away from their god? Why would they want that?

It's just dopey to see their religion any way other than their simply preferring enslavement by their god. Then everything is perfect for them.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Well, in that case governments all over the world 'condone' slavery. (Compulsory work.)

Work or starve. Work or go to jail, Work or find somewhere else to sleep at night.

Um, so when caveman Thag goes out to hunt and gather, and caveman Zog sleeps in and goofs off all day, and Thag eats the food he found, and Zog says "Gimme some.", and Thag says "Go hunt and gather your own damn food.", and Zog says "Work or starve! That's what you're telling me! You're a slave-driver! Help, help, I'm being repressed!", your theory is that Zog is right? The only way for Zog not to qualify as a slave is for Thag to have to work for Zog for nothing?

He's mad because humans haven't fully mitigated the need for work, if that's the case. God is the one who made the work compulsory, and by that measure that would make god the ultimate slaver.

Well duh. Man was created to work in the Garden. When man and woman err'd in a fruit eating incident, God punished man by making farming a massive pain in the ass.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Biblical wars are, in every case, started by humans and God's intervention is always to hasten the end of that war.

Yeah, could have used some of that in the Crusades and the World Wars of the 20th Century.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Biblical wars are, in every case, started by humans and God's intervention is always to hasten the end of that war.

Did you skip Joshua, chapter one, where God speaks directly to Joshua, telling him to take the Israelites across the Jordan to the land he has promised them? Land already settled, populated, with city after city that he directs them to war on? In chapter 6, God yaps again, in person, to Joshua, telling him exactly how to break into Jericho. Just before the walls fall, Joshua tells his followers, "Shout, for God has given you this city." Then they kill every single Jericho-ite, even the babies, kids, mall brats, oldsters, donkeys, all at sword point. Followed by even bloodier and more depraved events in the remaining 18 chapters. God directs his chosen people to commit acts which would debauch any human being from any time in history. (They do let a prostitute and her family live, because they were traitors to Jericho. So there's that.)
Great story, great faith, something to teach the kids at Sunday school.

 

[Learner]

Similar to what Lion points out. God REACTS to those who go against God & His people - they start it first, as the storyline reads & storyline should follow.

So... What's the difference between a prisoner-of-war and a slave in the bible who were captured during war? There isn't really (obviously the acronym POW wasn't used back then),...

...POW's , prisoners, Bond-servants, house servants and the usual slaves normally dipicted by their bad treatment and atrocious suffering. ALL come under the SLAVERY catagory term. Interesting nevertheless, seeing those slavery arguments with the one-line fits ALL context.



(Same here wondering. All the best to steve bank!)

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Biblical wars are, in every case, started by humans and God's intervention is always to hasten the end of that war.

Yeah, could have used some of that in the Crusades and the World Wars of the 20th Century.

The first war was in heaven between the slave angels and the angels that didn't want to be slaves.

 

[Lion IRC]

Biblical wars are, in every case, started by humans and God's intervention is always to hasten the end of that war.

Did you skip Joshua, chapter one, where God speaks directly to Joshua, telling him to take the Israelites across the Jordan to the land he has promised them? Land already settled, populated, with city after city that he directs them to war on? In chapter 6, God yaps again, in person, to Joshua, telling him exactly how to break into Jericho. Just before the walls fall, Joshua tells his followers, "Shout, for God has given you this city." Then they kill every single Jericho-ite, even the babies, kids, mall brats, oldsters, donkeys, all at sword point. Followed by even bloodier and more depraved events in the remaining 18 chapters. God directs his chosen people to commit acts which would debauch any human being from any time in history. (They do let a prostitute and her family live, because they were traitors to Jericho. So there's that.)
Great story, great faith, something to teach the kids at Sunday school.

Typical anti-bible polemics. Youre conflating the existence of horrible events in the bible with an unfounded assumption that God positively, approvingly, desires such events.

The Israelites were peaceful settlers who had no intention to invade or make war with the Canaanites. But they were met with hostility that was escalated by their enemy to the point that God intervened - decisively.

 

[ruby sparks]

It's a good job god changed allegiances and now supports non-Jewish white people in America. How could he have made such a mistake at first? Too bad for the first lot that the switch happened before the holocaust.

 

[DBT]

Biblical wars are, in every case, started by humans and God's intervention is always to hasten the end of that war.

Did you skip Joshua, chapter one, where God speaks directly to Joshua, telling him to take the Israelites across the Jordan to the land he has promised them? Land already settled, populated, with city after city that he directs them to war on? In chapter 6, God yaps again, in person, to Joshua, telling him exactly how to break into Jericho. Just before the walls fall, Joshua tells his followers, "Shout, for God has given you this city." Then they kill every single Jericho-ite, even the babies, kids, mall brats, oldsters, donkeys, all at sword point. Followed by even bloodier and more depraved events in the remaining 18 chapters. God directs his chosen people to commit acts which would debauch any human being from any time in history. (They do let a prostitute and her family live, because they were traitors to Jericho. So there's that.)
Great story, great faith, something to teach the kids at Sunday school.

Typical anti-bible polemics. Youre conflating the existence of horrible events in the bible with an unfounded assumption that God positively, approvingly, desires such events.

The Israelites were peaceful settlers who had no intention to invade or make war with the Canaanites. But they were met with hostility that was escalated by their enemy to the point that God intervened - decisively.

Where does it say 'peaceful settlers?"

 

[Atheos]

Lion's creative interpretation of the OT god doesn't match very well with the text, but that's nothing new. Cafeteria Christians have been doing that for centuries.

According to the text of the Old Testament "Peaceful Settlers who had no intention to invade" is the opposite of what was described.

Deuteronomy 6:10-11

And it shall be, when the LORD thy God shall have brought thee into the land which he sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give thee great and goodly cities, which thou buildedst not, and houses full of all good things, which thou filledst not, and wells digged, which thou diggedst not, vineyards and olive trees, which thou plantedst not; when thou shalt have eaten and be full;

Feel free to read the rest, mostly just a threat about what's going to happen if they forget to keep kissing the ring of the Mafia Boss who made all this possible.

"Peaceful settlers with no intention to invade" my ass. This is full scale invasion with a side order of genocide and gratuitous spoils of war if ever such was described. All done in compliance the premeditated plans of Yahweh the tribal war god.

 

[skepticalbip]

Never mind. Atheos, like me, has read Deuteronomy (unlike Lion) and has already corrected lion's assertions.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Here's more Lion meat.

Deuteronomy 20:1 (Moses is speaking to the people, but as he asserts way back in chapter 10, he is conveying to them what God has personally commanded):
When you have taken the cities in the land your God has promised you, kill everyone. You shall exterminate the Hittites, the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites, as the Lord ordered you to do.

I know, I know, this is just typical anti-Bible polemic. I didn't go back to the Hebrew. I conflated man's terrible behavior with God's approval. The Bible God isn't racist, and he certainly doesn't order genocide.
Except that he did, and he also committed it himself. Poor me -- I just don't see with the eyes of faith.

 

[bilby]

Biblical wars are, in every case, started by humans and God's intervention is always to hasten the end of that war.

Did you skip Joshua, chapter one, where God speaks directly to Joshua, telling him to take the Israelites across the Jordan to the land he has promised them? Land already settled, populated, with city after city that he directs them to war on? In chapter 6, God yaps again, in person, to Joshua, telling him exactly how to break into Jericho. Just before the walls fall, Joshua tells his followers, "Shout, for God has given you this city." Then they kill every single Jericho-ite, even the babies, kids, mall brats, oldsters, donkeys, all at sword point. Followed by even bloodier and more depraved events in the remaining 18 chapters. God directs his chosen people to commit acts which would debauch any human being from any time in history. (They do let a prostitute and her family live, because they were traitors to Jericho. So there's that.)
Great story, great faith, something to teach the kids at Sunday school.

Typical anti-bible polemics. Youre conflating the existence of horrible events in the bible with an unfounded assumption that God positively, approvingly, desires such events.

Yes, he might just be impotent to prevent them; Or unaware that they are happening.

The Israelites were peaceful settlers who had no intention to invade or make war with the Canaanites. But they were met with hostility that was escalated by their enemy to the point that God intervened - decisively.

Enlighten me; How can you settle an already occupied territory, without invading it?

 

[Lion IRC]

Typical anti-bible polemics. Youre conflating the existence of horrible events in the bible with an unfounded assumption that God positively, approvingly, desires such events.

The Israelites were peaceful settlers who had no intention to invade or make war with the Canaanites. But they were met with hostility that was escalated by their enemy to the point that God intervened - decisively.

Where does it say 'peaceful settlers?"

Deuteronomy 2:26.

I'm surprised so many atheist bible 'experts' here are unaware that the wandering Israelites wanted to avoid hostilities - unlike their numerous enemies.

 

[DBT]

Typical anti-bible polemics. Youre conflating the existence of horrible events in the bible with an unfounded assumption that God positively, approvingly, desires such events.

The Israelites were peaceful settlers who had no intention to invade or make war with the Canaanites. But they were met with hostility that was escalated by their enemy to the point that God intervened - decisively.

Where does it say 'peaceful settlers?"

Deuteronomy 2:26.

I'm surprised so many atheist bible 'experts' here are unaware that the wandering Israelites wanted to avoid hostilities - unlike their numerous enemies.

And what does verse 30 say? Something about the Lord God hardening hearts?

 

[ideologyhunter]

God seemed to do that hardening of hearts thing a lot in Bible legend -- always a set-up for mass death. The opposite, I would think, of mercy, justice, respect for free will, and especially, loving all his created beings.