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The Case For Christ - A defence of Lee Strobel's 1998 apologetic book

Except that, you are forgetting Matthew 22: 34-40:



Can you spot the two revealing things with that section? Here's a hint: the fact that it mentions Sadducees and Pharisees, who were--wait for it--two different sects of Judaism, each with their own version of what was, to them, the "true" Judaism. And yet, not only did they not try to collude with Pilate to have the Romans kill the other sect off, they actually sat together on the SH! Oh my goodness me! How is it possible that one Jew could tolerate another Jew having a different interpretation of Judaism without colluding with the Romans to have them all killed lest it diminish their power!!???

( A bit tired to go through previous posts at the moment after late job)

I'll just answer these questions for the moment. I did mention there was rivalry between the two, some posts back, that part about the politics. I haven't forgotten.

I am glad you are delving into the bible, trying to prove your point , which is a good thing for any discussion .

Did you know (obviously not) that the council is derived from different sects i.e. Saccudees AND the Pharisees? This council (law court not Judaism) is otherwise known as the Sanhedrin!

Oh, and the other revelation hint: He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.

Pretty sure "Jesus replied" means he wasn't silent as a sheep before its shearers and did in fact open his mouth.

Oops.

But when you say opened His mouth, do you propose He asked them to not to do, what they were about to do? What was His reply ? In my opinion I still think it means; He didn't complain.

Matthew 23:2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
and so on.

You forgot the "seven woes," which is the best part! So, we'll try this again. Do you think the Supreme Court justices would give a shit if some homeless guy on a street corner in Washington DC was saying to anyone that might be listening, “Woe to you, keeper of the law, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to." Or the like?

Although different characters , Jesus was getting popular as Trump. Implications ..enormous.
 
I'll answer these questions first ( A bit tired to go through previous posts at the moment after late job).

No worries.

Did you know that the council is derived from different sects i.e. Saccudees AND the Pharisees?

Um, yes, I did and in fact pointed that out as an example of how there were many thousands of people (in high and low places) in Jerusalem at that time that held and taught all kinds of different ideas/interpretations/beliefs about Judaism, so the notion that some homeless carpenter could preach anything that would somehow threaten the SH's political power base is ludicrous.

But when you say opened His mouth, do you propose He asked them to not to do, what they were about to do?

What? Here, this is what Isaiah said in I 53:

He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.

There is nothing mysterious in that description. He didn't speak is what Isaiah is very clearly saying. So if you apply any of that to Jesus' life in general, not applicable. Jesus opened his mouth a LOT. If specific to when he was "led like a lamb to the slaughter" and brought either before the SH or before Pilate (ie., as a sheep before its shearers), likewise, he did not remain silent. He spoke to the SH, he spoke to Pilate he even spoke on the cross.

In my opinion I still think it means; He didn't complain.

How? How do you get from "he did not open his mouth" and "is silent" to "he didn't complain?" Not to mention the fact that, once again, he DID complain multiple times as I pointed out before. He (supposedly) literally threw himself to the ground three times[/b] and begged his dad to stop the madness and take this "cup" from him. Three times.

Face plant. Dad, please, don't let me be tortured and killed! Face plant. Dad, please, don't let me be tortured and killed! Face plant. Dad, please, don't let me be tortured and killed!

I'd argue that's not remaining silent; that's opening his mouth; that's complaining. He is literally throwing himself on the ground and begging his dad--who is supposedly himself--to change his fate. If you don't consider that "complaining" (let alone opening his mouth and NOT remaining silent) then you're hopeless.

You forgot the "seven woes," which is the best part! So, we'll try this again. Do you think the Supreme Court justices would give a shit if some homeless guy on a street corner in Washington DC was saying to anyone that might be listening, “Woe to you, keeper of the law, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to." Or the like?

Although different characters , Jesus was getting popular as Trump.

Yeah, so, again, that would contradict Isaiah 53. And it STILL would not have any effect on the power of the existing SH. Trump has no power over any individual Supreme Court Justice. He only has the power to appoint new Judges.

So, again, are you suggesting that Jesus had some 50-60% (i.e., over the majority) of Jews--some 40,000 to 50,000 men--who did NOT despise him or hold him in low esteem?
 
Our resident theists continue to sidestep the fundamental issue. The gospels are in no way eyewitness accounts.
 
But not as popular as Barabas.

After the ressurection Jesus became popular to practically everyone in the world. Who talks about Barabas now (apart from you ;) )?

Irony. Completely lost. Do you know what "Bar Abbas" means? "Son of the Father." Sound familiar?

Do you know why he was imprisoned? He was supposedly the leader of an insurrectionist movement of Jews against the Roman occupation who had murdered Romans. A Zealot, iow, or the "fourth sect" and boy did THEY hate the SH.

So, do you actually believe that the Roman Prefect (Pilate, a notorious murderer of Jews) would just let a seditionist/murderer of Romans go free because he wanted the Jews he was there to oppress be "happy" during Passover?

Let's put that into terms you haven't been programmed to believe. Do you think Hitler would have asked the Jews at Auschwitz which Jew who had just murdered a dozen Nazi soldiers he should let go free, because Hitler wanted to do something special for the Jews for Yom Kippur?

Too extreme? How about a warden asking the prisoners which one of the serial killers on death row he should let free in honor of Arbor day?

Does that make any sense to you? Of course it does. It has to, or else the passion narrative as you know it can't be true.

How quickly do you think a warden who set a serial killer free because he wanted to please the prisoners would have lost his job? How quickly do you think that a Roman Prefect would have had his head cut off if he EVER even thought of letting the leader of an anti-Roman seditionist movement (who had murdered Roman citizens no less) go free because he wanted to please a bunch of Jews?

And, no, it wasn't for fear of rioting. Pilate was well known to place undercover operatives among any crowd of Jews to prevent any kind of riot. He had just brutally prevented tens of thousands of Jews from rioting in exactly that way over the Aqueduct and it's a sure bet that he would have had hundreds (if not thousands) of Roman soldiers all over the place during Passover.
 
Our resident theists continue to sidestep the fundamental issue. The gospels are in no way eyewitness accounts.

Yeah, it's always a desperate spin. The weird thing here is that Lion initiated it and just keeps pathetically avoiding it.
 
Our resident theists continue to sidestep the fundamental issue. The gospels are in no way eyewitness accounts.

Yeah, it's always a desperate spin. The weird thing here is that Lion initiated it and just keeps pathetically avoiding it.

I have to say, both your memories don't seem to be that much more than the memories of fish. Lion has continually said in several posts on several threads, that "these writings are witness acounts. :rolleyes:
 
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Our resident theists continue to sidestep the fundamental issue. The gospels are in no way eyewitness accounts.

Yeah, it's always a desperate spin. The weird thing here is that Lion initiated it and just keeps pathetically avoiding it.

Where is the defense of "A Case For Christ" that the OP wanted to address?

CCCQ-No-163-Loftus-How-might-gospel-writers-objectively-know-Jesus-was-born-of-a-virgin.jpg

90 years ago, Martin Luther King Jr. was born. Please demonstrate how someone could verify that his mother was a virgin when she gave birth? How would one prove that claim?
 
No, I'm presenting a fundamental contradiction. It has nothing to do with me or my opinion. Someone cannot both be held in low esteem at the same time they are held in high esteem; detested by mankind while at the same time beloved by mankind. That has nothing to do with anyone's opinion.

In my opinion , your conceptual context is a little off.


My opinion agrees with the Messianic Jews,in regards to Is 53

What exactly is that opinion? Can you quote and link to it please?

Do you know who "Messianic Jews" are, btw? The more common name for them is "Jews for Jesus." Do you know who they are? Hint, it's a trick question.

Apart from my friend of 15 plus years (former colleague , former Jew)He's a messianic Jew. He's not a member of the Jews for Jesus. (He believes Christ is the Son of God and not Christ is God )

I gave this link previously in post # 89

https://jewsforjesus.org/publication...-at-isaiah-53/

(I have to sleep apologies)
 
90 years ago, Martin Luther King Jr. was born. Please demonstrate how someone could verify that his mother was a virgin when she gave birth? How would one prove that claim?

Fred said that he heard Marth’s aunt say she went to a wedding where a guy had this unlimited bottle of wine and everyone was saying his mom was a virgin.

I swear!
 
Didn't members of the Sanhedrin accuse Jesus of healing on the Sabbath? *snip*

What did any of that evasive drivel have to do with whether or not 71 members of the Supreme Court of Jerusalem would in any way fear a homeless carpenter Rabbi preaching among thousands of others whatever version of Judaism he wanted to preach or the fact that Isaiah could not have been describing Jesus?

Still waiting on your argument that hearsay on top of hearsay on top of hearsay for thousands of years could possibly constitute evidence of anything other than someone once told someone else a story. I guess we all know you were full of shit on that one and never will address it. No big surprise.

You keep on asserting that it's all hearsay.
When you can prove it, let me know.
Then we'll talk.

Start by getting me the real names and ages and birth places of the authors of the Gospels.
Surely you must have that info.
How else can you claim certainty that they weren't there at the time.
 
Didn't members of the Sanhedrin accuse Jesus of healing on the Sabbath? *snip*

What did any of that evasive drivel have to do with whether or not 71 members of the Supreme Court of Jerusalem would in any way fear a homeless carpenter Rabbi preaching among thousands of others whatever version of Judaism he wanted to preach or the fact that Isaiah could not have been describing Jesus?

Still waiting on your argument that hearsay on top of hearsay on top of hearsay for thousands of years could possibly constitute evidence of anything other than someone once told someone else a story. I guess we all know you were full of shit on that one and never will address it. No big surprise.

You keep on asserting that it's all hearsay.
When you can prove it, let me know.
Then we'll talk.

Start by getting me the real names and ages and birth places of the authors of the Gospels.
Surely you must have that info.
How else can you claim certainty that they weren't there at the time.

The same way that you can be 100% certain that I didn't witness the signing of the Treaty of Versailles.

Despite not knowing anything about me other than my pseudonym and the stuff I have written (much of which you would doubtless dispute as inaccurate or wrong).
 
Didn't members of the Sanhedrin accuse Jesus of healing on the Sabbath? *snip*

What did any of that evasive drivel have to do with whether or not 71 members of the Supreme Court of Jerusalem would in any way fear a homeless carpenter Rabbi preaching among thousands of others whatever version of Judaism he wanted to preach or the fact that Isaiah could not have been describing Jesus?

Still waiting on your argument that hearsay on top of hearsay on top of hearsay for thousands of years could possibly constitute evidence of anything other than someone once told someone else a story. I guess we all know you were full of shit on that one and never will address it. No big surprise.

You keep on asserting that it's all hearsay.

Because, that's what it is when you have someone telling you what someone else told them that they experienced.

When you can prove it, let me know.

Oh, gee, ok. Um. Well, that would be right now....

Start by getting me the real names and ages and birth places of the authors of the Gospels.

The fact that we do not know the real names or ages/birth places of the authors of the Gospels proves that it is hearsay by definition alone (hearsay: information received from other people that one cannot adequately substantiate).

How else can you claim certainty that they weren't there at the time.

Name the (alleged) disciples of Jesus. Do you see a "Mark" in there anywhere? Better yet, let's just end this vapidness directly. Throw a dart! Here's one:

Mark 14:1: Now the Passover and the Festival of Unleavened Bread were only two days away, and the chief priests and the teachers of the law were scheming to arrest Jesus secretly and kill him. 2 “But not during the festival,” they said, “or the people may riot.”

Unless "Mark" (whoever that was) was a member of the Sanhedrin, how could he have possibly witnessed the Sanhedrin "scheming to arrest Jesus secretly and kill him" in order to provide us with an actual quote?

Matthew 14:1: At that time Herod the tetrarch heard the reports about Jesus, 2 and he said to his attendants, “This is John the Baptist; he has risen from the dead! That is why miraculous powers are at work in him.”

Unless "Matthew" was one of Herod's attendants, he could not possibly have known what Herod actually said in order to quote him like that.

Matthew 14:6 On Herod’s birthday the daughter of Herodias danced for the guests and pleased Herod so much 7 that he promised with an oath to give her whatever she asked. 8 Prompted by her mother, she said, “Give me here on a platter the head of John the Baptist.” 9 The king was distressed, but because of his oaths and his dinner guests, he ordered that her request be granted 10 and had John beheaded in the prison. 11 His head was brought in on a platter and given to the girl, who carried it to her mother. 12 John’s disciples came and took his body and buried it.

Again, unless "Matthew" was a member of Herod's guests, he could not possibly have witnessed Herodias' dance or Herod's "oath" or what the daughter said in order to quote her verbatim as he does, or the head on a platter, etc.

How about Luke? This should be fun:

So Joseph also went up from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to Bethlehem the town of David, because he belonged to the house and line of David. 5 He went there to register with Mary, who was pledged to be married to him and was expecting a child.

Cool! So it was Joseph, Mary and Luke all going to Bethlehem together. Remarkable.

6 While they were there, the time came for the baby to be born, 7 and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no guest room available for them.

WOW! GLuke is generally thought to be dated to around 100-110 CE and Jesus is generally thought to have been born in the year "0" (hence our calendar), so that would necessarily have to mean for the author of GLuke to have been an eyewitness to Jesus' birth--right there with him and Joseph and Mary--120 years old? And then he waited another century before he wrote what he personally witnessed down? Amazing.

Want to keep going or do you now finally understand what hearsay is? In this case, it is the author relating a story that somebody else told them about, but that the author did not directly witness themselves.

And when you factor in that we don't know who the authors were or who told them the stories or how many times those stories were repeated over the years and embellished over the years before these anonymous authors wrote them down AND the fact that these books have been copied hundreds of times over the centuries by additional unknown scribes AND the fact they have been changed in several different ways by later priests and Kings AND the fact that even as they stand there is no one coherent, contiguous storyline between the synoptics on exactly what happened in the passion narrative, then we have hearsay on top of hearsay on top of hearsay...etc.

So, what's it going to be Lion? Are you going to double-down on a 120 year old Luke who was actually with Joseph and Mary at the manager in Bethlehem to personally witness Mary wrapping the newborn Jesus before placing him in a manger that all four of them evidently slept in together?
 
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I said;
You keep on asserting that it's all hearsay.
 
Even the 'Jesus Seminar' accepts that at least 20% of what we have about Jesus' sayings is authentic. We couldn't conclude this if there were no eye witnesses.
 
The Jesus Seminar thinks parts of Matthew Chapter 5 are authentic sayings of Jesus.

"Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, and he began to teach them"

That's exactly how I would describe it if I saw the same thing.
 
The Jesus Seminar thinks parts of Matthew Chapter 5 are authentic sayings of Jesus.

That is NOT the same thing as affirming that whoever wrote Matthew was an eyewitness to any of the events.

"Now when Jesus saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, and he began to teach them"

That's exactly how I would describe it if I saw the same thing.

Uh huh. And Chapter 4?

Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

So Matthew was with Jesus in the wilderness in order to witness "The Devil" tempting him and saying, direct quote, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread"?

Or witnessed:

5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[c]”

7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’[d]”

8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’[e]”

11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

The author of GMatthew personally witnessed all of that too?

How about:

Jesus Calls His First Disciples

8 As Jesus was walking beside the Sea of Galilee, he saw two brothers, Simon called Peter and his brother Andrew.

:consternation1: But NOT Matthew? I thought Matthew was a disciple too, right? So if Matthew, the Disciple was there to witness Jesus walking beside the Sea of Galilee meeting--for the first time--Peter and Andrew, why didn't Jesus also see Matthew there?

Maybe it specifies it in the next few verses:

They were casting a net into the lake, for they were fishermen. 19 “Come, follow me,” Jesus said, “and I will send you out to fish for people.” 20 At once they left their nets and followed him.

21 Going on from there, he saw two other brothers, James son of Zebedee and his brother John. They were in a boat with their father Zebedee, preparing their nets. Jesus called them, 22 and immediately they left the boat and their father and followed him.

Well, wow, that's mighty strange! So, Matthew is there--as an eyewitness--to see Jesus first meeting Peter and Andrew and then James and John, but STILL Jesus has not also met Matthew??? Is Matthew a ghost at this point?

We'll never know, because that's all the author of GMatthew has to say about how he somehow was right there to witness it all, but Jesus never met him.

But let's go all the way back to the beginning of GMatthew.

Matthew 1:1 This is the genealogy of Jesus the Messiah the son of David, the son of Abraham:
2 Abraham was the father of Isaac,
Isaac the father of Jacob,
Jacob the father of Judah and his brothers,
3 Judah the father of Perez and Zerah, whose mother was Tamar,
Perez the father of Hezron,
Hezron the father of Ram,
4 Ram the father of Amminadab,
Amminadab the father of Nahshon,
Nahshon the father of Salmon,
5 Salmon the father of Boaz, whose mother was Rahab,
Boaz the father of Obed, whose mother was Ruth,
Obed the father of Jesse,
6 and Jesse the father of King David.

David was the father of Solomon, whose mother had been Uriah’s wife,
7 Solomon the father of Rehoboam,
Rehoboam the father of Abijah,
Abijah the father of Asa,
8 Asa the father of Jehoshaphat,
Jehoshaphat the father of Jehoram,
Jehoram the father of Uzziah,
9 Uzziah the father of Jotham,
Jotham the father of Ahaz,
Ahaz the father of Hezekiah,
10 Hezekiah the father of Manasseh,
Manasseh the father of Amon,
Amon the father of Josiah,
11 and Josiah the father of Jeconiah[c] and his brothers at the time of the exile to Babylon.
12 After the exile to Babylon:
Jeconiah was the father of Shealtiel,
Shealtiel the father of Zerubbabel,
13 Zerubbabel the father of Abihud,
Abihud the father of Eliakim,
Eliakim the father of Azor,
14 Azor the father of Zadok,
Zadok the father of Akim,
Akim the father of Elihud,
15 Elihud the father of Eleazar,
Eleazar the father of Matthan,
Matthan the father of Jacob,
16 and Jacob the father of Joseph, the husband of Mary, and Mary was the mother of Jesus who is called the Messiah.

17 Thus there were fourteen generations in all from Abraham to David, fourteen from David to the exile to Babylon, and fourteen from the exile to the Messiah.

HOLY SHIT! You mean the author of GMatthew was there at every single one of those births to eyewitness all of that? Or everything that followed in 2 and 3 as well as 4 and 5 and 6? Because there sure as shit is NO indication that the author is merely relating information he heard from others in 1,2,3,and 4 and then just when it comes to 5,6,7 etc., it's his firsthand eyewitness account.
 
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