The Civil War of 2025

[bilby]

Franco was in power until 1975, so I guess that depends what you consider 'short-term'.

On the historical scale.

On the historical scale, nobody lives long enough to matter.

Including (perhaps especially) the victims of evil political ideologies.

If Trumpism turns the USA into a totalitarian hellhole, there's little comfort (at least for anyone alive today) in the idea that the grandchildren of today's citizens might see the collapse of the regime.

 

[Politesse]

Franco was in power until 1975, so I guess that depends what you consider 'short-term'.

On the historical scale.

On the historical scale, nobody lives long enough to matter.

Including (perhaps especially) the victims of evil political ideologies.

If Trumpism turns the USA into a totalitarian hellhole, there's little comfort (at least for anyone alive today) in the idea that the grandchildren of today's citizens might see the collapse of the regime.

Perhaps. But personally, I take some solace in knowing that they are, on a fundamental level wrong about their claims of superiority, that the utopian visions they spin to justify their deeds will always prove to be moonshine and spittle in the end. It gives me hope that we can someday grow beyond all this. Or even if not, I still wouldn't care to live in a world where their type of behavior would actually create some sort of paradise for them that their moral conduct has not earned, so I am comforted by the knowledge that we do not. I would not describe either Hitler or Mussolini as having lived particularly happy lives, and that's good. They shouldn't.

 

[bilby]

Franco was in power until 1975, so I guess that depends what you consider 'short-term'.

On the historical scale.

On the historical scale, nobody lives long enough to matter.

Including (perhaps especially) the victims of evil political ideologies.

If Trumpism turns the USA into a totalitarian hellhole, there's little comfort (at least for anyone alive today) in the idea that the grandchildren of today's citizens might see the collapse of the regime.

Perhaps. But personally, I take some solace in knowing that they are, on a fundamental level wrong about their claims of superiority, that the utopian visions they spin to justify their deeds will always prove to be moonshine and spittle in the end. It gives me hope that we can someday grow beyond all this. Or even if not, I still wouldn't care to live in a world where their type of behavior would actually create some sort of paradise for them that their moral conduct has not earned, so I am comforted by the knowledge that we do not. I would not describe either Hitler or Mussolini as having lived particularly happy lives, and that's good. They shouldn't.

I can't argue with that.

But I certainly wouldn't want to live through yet another such failed attempt to build their supposed paradise, and nor would I wish it upon anyone else.

The fascists deserve the misery they create, but their victims are invariably both more numerous and more miserable. It's time for humanity to learn not to repeat their mistakes once again.

 

[Swammerdami]

Consider the Tulsa Massacre of 1921, where white lynch mobs operated with the help of city officials. Do you think such a thing cannot happen again?

Yes I do think that such a thing cannot happen again. The deep state libr’ruls are not concentrated in one part of one town like the objects of the Tulsa massacre, they have cleverly intermingled themselves with Murkin patriots. You can’t just burn ‘em out and hang the stragglers. Sure, some are given away by their skin color, but you can’t often get enough of ‘em at once to make a real difference.

Asked and answered.

But the Trumpist mobs will mostly target blacks and obvious "foreigners", e.g. Muslims. Not only will these victims be easy to identify — and overwhelmingly vote for "Bidenist Fascism" — but white Bidenists will offer less resistance if they are not personally targeted.

Prominent white liberals will get death threats, as well as FBI agents, etc. whose names Trump maliciously leaks to his soldiers. Anyone with Biden bumper-stickers or who is otherwise an obvious "liberal" will be in fear. But the majority of violence will be directed at blacks and certain immigrant groups. The Trumpists won't seek large-scale genocide; they'll be satisfied with the certainty of political hegemony. Don't forget that if ONLY whites could vote, the Trumpists would win every election in a landslide.

I HOPE I'm wrong about all this, but the danger is very real. Hatred, ignorance and lying have been common throughout history, but the amplification of hatred and lies by social media and malicious magnates like Rupert Murdoch is something new. The future will be very bleak even if civil war is averted.

 

[Ford]

Franco was in power until 1975, so I guess that depends what you consider 'short-term'.

On the historical scale.

On the historical scale, nobody lives long enough to matter.

Including (perhaps especially) the victims of evil political ideologies.

If Trumpism turns the USA into a totalitarian hellhole, there's little comfort (at least for anyone alive today) in the idea that the grandchildren of today's citizens might see the collapse of the regime.

I don't know that I'd be as worried about that outcome happening as a result of a civil war. I wouldn't be surprised if there was violence (a repeat of January 6th or an attempt to pull off another Oklahoma City type attack), but we also have to take into account the abilities and dedication - or lack thereof - among the Trumpists. The mob that attacked the Capitol had some militia elements, but mostly it was an unruly incompetent group who only achieved what they did through sheer numbers overwhelming the defenses. Add to that the fact that Trump deliberately hamstrung the response and you've got the outcome we all watched unfold on video.

At the same time, the idiots were filming themselves, posting their crimes on social media, and when the FBI finally dragged hundreds of them in, they whined, stomped their feet, and for the most part knuckled under and turned on each other in an effort to save their own asses. Derisive nicknames like "MEAL Team Six" or "Y'all Qaeda" seem to fit a lot of these people. Incompetent louts caught up in the moment.

The militia types (Oath Keepers, Proud Boys, etc) are more organized and dedicated, but much smaller in number. They can cause mayhem, but civil war? I think we're not so far gone as a country that if they were to cause a mass casualty event like Oklahoma City or some other serious attack on a federal building, I doubt they'd be cheered on by the general public. When the picture of that fireman carrying a bloodied child out of the wreckage of the Murrah Building, the nation recoiled in horror, and what had been a budding right wing movement lost steam pretty quickly. Would Fox News cheer on such an event? I doubt it. Would your average "Trump is a buffoon, but I like his policies" voter support a bunch of Post Office employees (or other folks) being murdered by a violent mob?

I'd like to think the "civil war" types would lose all but fringe support pretty quickly, and most people would support whatever actions the government took to fight them.

I'm much more concerned with the GOP taking over Congress, rewriting state laws to give election authority to their GOP run legislatures, and install Trump or DeSantis as El Presidente For Life.

 

[Elixir]

If your enemies aren't concentrated enough yet, you concentrate them, in neighbourhoods, then in ghettos, then in concentration camps

Maybe that worked for rounding up Jews in Germany, but waddya gonna do? Nuke California and New York, and hope the rest of the libs concentrate themselves in Nevada so you can round them up??
Not gonna happen.
Even on a micro scale - is Alabama going to line up the entire population of Huntsville (a very Dem area) and shoot them? That would probably disable the infrastructure of the entire state. (That area probably ha 20% of their population and 80% of their brainpower)

I just don’t see it. Esp without the full assent and cooperation of the military.

 

[Jarhyn]

If your enemies aren't concentrated enough yet, you concentrate them, in neighbourhoods, then in ghettos, then in concentration camps

Maybe that worked for rounding up Jews in Germany, but waddya gonna do? Nuke California and New York, and hope the rest of the libs concentrate themselves in Nevada so you can round them up??
Not gonna happen.

Or, what happens when initial attempts to concentrate the victims into neighborhoods and ghettos results rather in those people using Telegram and Slack and whatever other interpersonal networking to track the vandals back to their house, drag them out into the street, and beat them each within an inch of their life the very next day because FUCK FASCISTS?

 

[Elixir]

If your enemies aren't concentrated enough yet, you concentrate them, in neighbourhoods, then in ghettos, then in concentration camps

Maybe that worked for rounding up Jews in Germany, but waddya gonna do? Nuke California and New York, and hope the rest of the libs concentrate themselves in Nevada so you can round them up??
Not gonna happen.

Or, what happens when initial attempts to concentrate the victims into neighborhoods and ghettos results rather in those people using Telegram and Slack and whatever other interpersonal networking to track the vandals back to their house, drag them out into the street, and beat them each within an inch of their life the very next day because FUCK FASCISTS?

Well… first of all, within an inch of their life is insufficient if they’re still able to go get their AR15 and come back to stalk Telegram users.

 

[Jarhyn]

If your enemies aren't concentrated enough yet, you concentrate them, in neighbourhoods, then in ghettos, then in concentration camps

Maybe that worked for rounding up Jews in Germany, but waddya gonna do? Nuke California and New York, and hope the rest of the libs concentrate themselves in Nevada so you can round them up??
Not gonna happen.

Or, what happens when initial attempts to concentrate the victims into neighborhoods and ghettos results rather in those people using Telegram and Slack and whatever other interpersonal networking to track the vandals back to their house, drag them out into the street, and beat them each within an inch of their life the very next day because FUCK FASCISTS?

Well… first of all, within an inch of their life is insufficient if they’re still able to go get their AR15 and come back to stalk Telegram users.

So take that from them too. It's not hard to disable an AR-15 permanently as long as it's not stored absolutely inaccessible, such as as a safe. Which they didn't buy. Or which will be "broken shut".

And good luck stalking a telegram group. LOL.

At best you can stalk people and start a merry shooting war. Better dying on one's feet putting bullets towards those who would exterminate and subjugate you than dying from their bullets in your bed.

 

[Elixir]

Hitler and Franco had the full support of their respective public majorities, even if much of that support was under threats and coercion.
American fascists don’t have nearly that kind of foundation.

 

[Elixir]

good luck stalking a telegram group. LOL.

Yeah, that’s kinda my point.

 

[Politesse]

Hitler and Franco had the full support of their respective public majorities

This is not accurate.

 

[ZiprHead]

I find I'm agreeing with Ford that there will be no civil war. I think some of these right-wingers will do some terroristic attacks which will only marginalize their movement even further.

 

[Elixir]

Hitler and Franco had the full support of their respective public majorities

This is not accurate.

To what extent?
My paternal gf was a German Jew. He immigrated to Alabama in the mid 1800s.
The story I am told is that even then, the Jewish population was segregating itself… due to general persecution.

 

[AdamWho]

When I hear about this Civil War fantasy it is mostly from people on the right.

Who do they think they will be fighting and where will this fighting happen?

Will they be knocking on doors unimpeded asking for people's voting records?

Will they be attacking government buildings?

Exactly what do they imagine will be going on?

 

[Elixir]

Exactly what do they imagine will be going on?

I think they are vastly deluded - which can already be assumed if they are trumpsuckers. They envision themselves invited to the Imperial Palace where they will be seated on the right hand of their orange idol, drinking the blood of vanquished lib’ruls and enjoying their rightful place as billionaire oligarchs.

 

[Bullmoose Too]

Republicans can't actually fight for crap if the Jan 6 affair was any indication, so we should be okay, if down a few geriatric neighbors.

The only way for the Republicans, or any political party for that matter, to stage a successful coup is to have the military on their side.

Right wingers pretending to be in a militia or just rioting and saying that they are enforcing the will of the people are not going to do much. Even if they did do something that the federal government viewed as threat that warrants a strong response, the federal government would send in the military. Which would end poorly for the coup plotters.

I wrote this quickly in my phone at work on my break so it may not be worded or thought out well.

 

[TV and credit cards]

I find I'm agreeing with Ford that there will be no civil war. I think some of these right-wingers will do some terroristic attacks which will only marginalize their movement even further.

There is also the "nothing left to lose" aspect which needs to be and is not present. Many of these yahoos have families and jobs which thanks to Jan 6th they can see as being at risk. Sadly, it just wasn't something they were capable of foreseeing.

 

[Elixir]

Sadly, it just wasn't something they were capable of foreseeing.

There seems to be very little that the average MAGAt is capable of foreseeing.

 

[TV and credit cards]

If your enemies aren't concentrated enough yet, you concentrate them, in neighbourhoods, then in ghettos, then in concentration camps

Maybe that worked for rounding up Jews in Germany, but waddya gonna do? Nuke California and New York, and hope the rest of the libs concentrate themselves in Nevada so you can round them up??
Not gonna happen.
Even on a micro scale - is Alabama going to line up the entire population of Huntsville (a very Dem area) and shoot them? That would probably disable the infrastructure of the entire state. (That area probably ha 20% of their population and 80% of their brainpower)

I just don’t see it. Esp without the full assent and cooperation of the military.

First they came after the Prius drivers...

In the end, they'll just round folks up by political affiliation.