The dead "children" of Gaza

[Loren Pechtel]

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middl...er-seige-naming-dead-2014710105846549528.html

(This is a listing of the dead, from Hamas.)

309. Ibrahim Jamal Kamal Naser, 13, male

A bad thing?

Here's his shahid poster:

Does he look 13? And they don't make those posters for civilians. He's Hamas.

Obviously, it's possible there was really a 13 year old with exactly the same name and they didn't admit to the death of the Hamas member but how likely do you think that is???

 

[Tom Sawyer]

WTF, dude?

I mean ... seriously?

 

[Rhea]

309. Ibrahim Jamal Kamal Naser, 13, male

A bad thing?

Most deaths of 13 yos are sad to me.

Here's his shahid poster:

How did you come to "know" it was his?

Does he look 13?

The person in that poster does not look 13 to me

And they don't make those posters for civilians. He's Hamas.

"He" who? the one in the poster or the 13yo listed? You haven't provided any information to lead anyone besides yourself to believe they are the same person. How does anyone here (including you) know that the person in the poster is even named Ibrahim? Can you read arabic?

Obviously, it's possible there was really a 13 year old with exactly the same name

Obviously. Quite possible.

and they didn't admit to the death of the Hamas member

relevance?

but how likely do you think that is???

Given the dearth of evidence that they are same person, I guess I'd say, "Quite likely".

 

[Jayjay]

The number of children or civilians killed may be inflated, but so what? No doubt civilians and children have been killed in great numbers. At some point, moral outrage curve is going to flatten out. 500 or 700 or 1000 innocent casualties is really all the same to me.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Alright:

Number of actual dead childen = Number of reported dead children - 1

 

[untermensche]

That guy looks old enough to have a 13 year old son.

 

[Bronzeage]

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middl...er-seige-naming-dead-2014710105846549528.html

(This is a listing of the dead, from Hamas.)

309. Ibrahim Jamal Kamal Naser, 13, male

A bad thing?

Here's his shahid poster:

Does he look 13? And they don't make those posters for civilians. He's Hamas.

Obviously, it's possible there was really a 13 year old with exactly the same name and they didn't admit to the death of the Hamas member but how likely do you think that is???

Did you check to see if any of these people have a poster?

447. Sulaiman Ahmed Sulaiman Abujaamei, 20, male
448. Unidentified from Abujaamei house, male
449. Unidentified from Abujaamei house, male
450. Unidentified from Abujaamei house, male
451. Unidentified from Abujaamei house, male
452. Fatima Riyab Abdelrahman Abujaamei, 25, female
453. Anjoud Tayseer Mohamed Abujaamei, 1, female
454. Sabah Tawfeeq Mohamed Abujaamei, 39, female
455. Jawdat Tawfeeq Ahmed Abujaamei, 13, male
456. Tawfeeq Tawfeeq Ahmed Abujaamei, 5, male
457. Hayfaa Tawfeeq Ahmed Abujaamei, 9, female
458. Yasmeen Ahmed Salameh Abujaamei, 25, female
459. Shahnaaz Waleed Mohamed Abujaamei, 28, female
460. Saheelah Bassam Ahmed Abujaamei, 2, female
461. Yasser Ahmed Mohamed Abujaamei, 27, male
462. Fatima Tayseer Ahmed Abujaamei, 8, female

 

[Sabine Grant]

What is your point Loren? Are you expecting members of this board reading your OP to conclude that children of all ages in the Gaza are not wounded or killed as the result of Israeli fire? Are we expected to adopt a detached and indifferent attitude towards all those victims because you dug up info about a 13 year old who appears to have been a Jihadist? Is that why you composed your title while placing in quotes the word children? What is your actual contention here Loren?

Why do you think this Convention

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Rights_of_the_Child

affords rights to persons under the age of 18 or as noted "unless the age of majority is attained earlier under a state's own domestic legislation"? Would you somehow be an exception who considers that a 13 year old does not fall under the category of child? Somehow believing that a 13 year old has equal mental and emotional development to an adult? That no matter how much of a Jihadist he would have been, he was an adolescent and certainly not to be expected to process thoughts the way an adult would.

So, what is the meaning of placing the word children in quotes, please clarify :

1) Are you attempting to make a point that a 13 year old Jihadist should not be counted as a child?

2) Are you attempting to make the point that when a casualty count is given including children, 13 years old should not be included?

3) That being a Jihadist, he cannot be included as a child?

4) That when Hamas includes a 13 year old in their casualty count of children, they are lying?

5) That when Hamas includes a 13 year old Jihadist in their casualty count of children, he should not be included in that count under the category children because he was a Jihadist and further Hamas is lying while including him in that casualty count?

6) That somehow, I am to discount the fact he was an adolescent and certainly to be included under the casualty count of children because he was a Jihadist and I should adopt a detached and indifference attitude towards a dead 13 year old caught in a bloody conflict?

 

[Jayjay]

What is your point Loren? Are you expecting members of this board reading your OP to conclude that children of all ages in the Gaza are not wounded or killed as the result of Israeli fire? Are we expected to adopt a detached and indifferent attitude towards all those victims because you dug up info about a 13 year old who appears to have been a Jihadist? Is that why you composed your title while placing in quotes the word children? What is your actual contention here Loren?

Why do you think this Convention

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Rights_of_the_Child

affords rights to persons under the age of 18 or as noted "unless the age of majority is attained earlier under a state's own domestic legislation"? Would you somehow be an exception who considers that a 13 year old does not fall under the category of child? Somehow believing that a 13 year old has equal mental and emotional development to an adult? That no matter how much of a Jihadist he would have been, he was an adolescent and certainly not to be expected to process thoughts the way an adult would.

So, what is the meaning of placing the word children in quotes, please clarify :

1) Are you attempting to make a point that a 13 year old Jihadist should not be counted as a child?

2) Are you attempting to make the point that when a casualty count is given including children, 13 years old should not be included?

3) That being a Jihadist, he cannot be included as a child?

4) That when Hamas includes a 13 year old in their casualty count of children, they are lying?

5) That when Hamas includes a 13 year old Jihadist in their casualty count of children, he should not be included in that count under the category children because he was a Jihadist and further Hamas is lying while including him in that casualty count?

6) That somehow, I am to discount the fact he was an adolescent and certainly to be included under the casualty count of children because he was a Jihadist and I should adopt a detached and indifference attitude towards a dead 13 year old caught in a bloody conflict?

I think what he's saying is that Hamas was lying about the victim being 13.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Alright:

Number of actual dead childen = Number of reported dead children - 1

1) You think they lied only once??

2) I didn't link the less clear picture that had 9 shahids--3 of them "children".

 

[Loren Pechtel]

What is your point Loren? Are you expecting members of this board reading your OP to conclude that children of all ages in the Gaza are not wounded or killed as the result of Israeli fire? Are we expected to adopt a detached and indifferent attitude towards all those victims because you dug up info about a 13 year old who appears to have been a Jihadist? Is that why you composed your title while placing in quotes the word children? What is your actual contention here Loren?

The point is you guys blindly believe Hamas. I'm showing they fake data.

Why do you think this Convention

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Rights_of_the_Child

affords rights to persons under the age of 18 or as noted "unless the age of majority is attained earlier under a state's own domestic legislation"? Would you somehow be an exception who considers that a 13 year old does not fall under the category of child? Somehow believing that a 13 year old has equal mental and emotional development to an adult? That no matter how much of a Jihadist he would have been, he was an adolescent and certainly not to be expected to process thoughts the way an adult would.

The point seems to have gone past you. Look at that picture--he's not 13. It's bad data.

4) That when Hamas includes a 13 year old in their casualty count of children, they are lying?

5) That when Hamas includes a 13 year old Jihadist in their casualty count of children, he should not be included in that count under the category children because he was a Jihadist and further Hamas is lying while including him in that casualty count?

6) That somehow, I am to discount the fact he was an adolescent and certainly to be included under the casualty count of children because he was a Jihadist and I should adopt a detached and indifference attitude towards a dead 13 year old caught in a bloody conflict?

The point is that he's really a Hamas member, not a civilian and he's certainly not 13.

- - - Updated - - -

I think what he's saying is that Hamas was lying about the victim being 13.

I'm glad someone gets it, although that's only half of it. The other half is that he's Hamas, not a civilian.

 

[Rhea]

The point is you guys blindly believe Hamas. I'm showing they fake data.


The point seems to have gone past you. Look at that picture--he's not 13. It's bad data.


The point is that he's really a Hamas member, not a civilian and he's certainly not 13.

I think what he's saying is that Hamas was lying about the victim being 13.

I'm glad someone gets it, although that's only half of it. The other half is that he's Hamas, not a civilian.

I'm waiting for you to show some reason anyone should believe that the person in the poster is the same on as the child on the list.
Why on earth should anyone believe that?
Do you read arabic? I don't. I have no reason to believe that poster has any relation to that list.
Except you said that you believed it. I don't ewven know how YOU came to believe it.
And I know from experience that things you believe are not always terribly convincing objectively.


So, we're sitting at a red light here that flashes [citation needed]

 

[RavenSky]

The point is you guys blindly believe Hamas. I'm showing they fake data..

No... you didn't show that at all

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

So maybe the number of dead kids is exagerated. Is that your whole point? I am pretty sure the number of Jews who died in the Holocaust is exagerated too. Does that somehow make it not bad?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Alright:

Number of actual dead childen = Number of reported dead children - 1

1) You think they lied only once??

2) I didn't link the less clear picture that had 9 shahids--3 of them "children".

Oh my...

So you've read my previous posts. Replied to them and you actually think that my stance is that Hamas has only exaggerated by one. Jebus fucking Christ Loren.

As you've already read, even if Hamas was bloating the deaths by a full magnitude, then number of dead Palestinian civilians verses Israeli civilians is heavily tilted. But don't worry about responding to that part. Ignore it, as you have with all the other posts and continue to whip that "Hamas can't be trusted, so look the other way" dead horse.

 

[Ford]

So maybe the number of dead kids is exagerated. Is that your whole point?

In order to understand his point you have to understand where he's coming from regarding the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Based upon his posts on the topic here and at the previous board, it seems to boil down to a couple basic premises:

1. The State of Israel can do no wrong when it is acting in "self defense." Ever.

2. The "Palestinians" are inherently evil, and nothing will ever change that fact.


That's pretty much it, really. Filter everything through these and you can see how questioning the Israeli side = "blindly following Hamas."

You might say "hey, we're not buying everything Hamas says but clearly Israeli airstrikes have killed civilians, many of them children."

Apply the filter. Children become "children." Wink wink, nudge nudge. All Palestinian "children" are really genocidal terrorists and as such are fair targets for airstrikes. And you are an apologist for those who would destroy Israel and drive her people into the sea.

Lather, rinse, and repeat.

 

[Angry Floof]

Alternative guess as to Loren's point: Don't feel sorry for the dead Palestinian children because they were not actually children but terrorists. WAKE UP, SHEEPLE!!!

 

[Sabine Grant]

The point is you guys blindly believe Hamas. I'm showing they fake data.

And the number of times I have clearly communicated my being aware of the tactics used by Hamas which result in harming the Gaza population have escaped you? I do NOT "blindly believe Hamas". However, contrary to you, I do not adopt the extreme to systematically dismiss any information issued by humanitarian organizations based on the claim that they have used Palestinian sources and therefore it cannot be true. In such fashion you had audaciously dismissed data from WHO and the International Committee for the Red Cross (it is duly documented in another thread), data which reflected the state of limited food resources in the Gaza.

Why do you think this Convention

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_the_Rights_of_the_Child

affords rights to persons under the age of 18 or as noted "unless the age of majority is attained earlier under a state's own domestic legislation"? Would you somehow be an exception who considers that a 13 year old does not fall under the category of child? Somehow believing that a 13 year old has equal mental and emotional development to an adult? That no matter how much of a Jihadist he would have been, he was an adolescent and certainly not to be expected to process thoughts the way an adult would.

The point seems to have gone past you. Look at that picture--he's not 13. It's bad data.

I am clearly seeing that the individual portrayed in this non sourced poster is not a 13 year old. However, I am certainly not clearly seeing that the individual portrayed in the same non sourced poster can *ONLY* be the 13 year old included in the list of casualties. Correct data on your part would be :

1) Provide the source of the poster.(a link would be helpful). I am not sure why you would expect everyone here to agree with your conclusion since it is based on a non sourced picture/poster.

2) To support your conclusion, you would have to demonstrate that 2 individuals carrying the same name is impossible. While some of us familiar with Arab culture are aware of the common occurrence of sons carrying the same name as their fathers.

4) That when Hamas includes a 13 year old in their casualty count of children, they are lying?

5) That when Hamas includes a 13 year old Jihadist in their casualty count of children, he should not be included in that count under the category children because he was a Jihadist and further Hamas is lying while including him in that casualty count?

6) That somehow, I am to discount the fact he was an adolescent and certainly to be included under the casualty count of children because he was a Jihadist and I should adopt a detached and indifference attitude towards a dead 13 year old caught in a bloody conflict?

The point is that he's really a Hamas member, not a civilian and he's certainly not 13.

But you have NOT made that point with any credible and sourced data. You posted a non sourced picture of an individual of the same identity as a listed dead 13 year old. Which, by the way, regarding the identity, how did you become aware of the printed identity on the picture since it is in Arabic?

- - - Updated - - -

I think what he's saying is that Hamas was lying about the victim being 13.

I'm glad someone gets it, although that's only half of it. The other half is that he's Hamas, not a civilian.

The individual in the picture/poster is indeed portrayed as a Hamas militant member. However, you have failed to :

1) Provide a link to the source of the poster.

2) Support your conclusion by demonstrating that the listed by name 13 year old in the casualty list can ONLY be the Hamas militant member portrayed in the picture/poster.

 

[laughing dog]

The OP is rather pointless for a number of reasons. First, the OP poster admits that his example does not show his claim that Hamas lies. Second, there is little evidence that anyone on this board takes Hamas literally. Third, the logical fact that Hamas may have lied about this person does not mean the reported dead child is not a child. Fourth, Hamas is not the only reporter of casualties in Gaza. Finally, the OP ignores the reality any number of dead children of any nationality, ethnicity, race and/or religion is a tragedy.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The point is you guys blindly believe Hamas. I'm showing they fake data.


The point seems to have gone past you. Look at that picture--he's not 13. It's bad data.


The point is that he's really a Hamas member, not a civilian and he's certainly not 13.





I'm glad someone gets it, although that's only half of it. The other half is that he's Hamas, not a civilian.

I'm waiting for you to show some reason anyone should believe that the person in the poster is the same on as the child on the list.
Why on earth should anyone believe that?
Do you read arabic? I don't. I have no reason to believe that poster has any relation to that list.
Except you said that you believed it. I don't ewven know how YOU came to believe it.
And I know from experience that things you believe are not always terribly convincing objectively.


So, we're sitting at a red light here that flashes [citation needed]

I don't read Arabic either, but the person who found that does. I have no way of independently confirming it but neither do I have any reason to think they're lying.