The failure of American public schools to teach children the truth regarding our history

[Politesse]

Translation in American Terms: White people experienced centuries' worth of change in just a few decades because of slavery. When slaves were freed some people became angry and afraid. They reacted by turning to radical ideas in an attempt to hold on to their traditional way of life. For example voting a big fat orange democrat from New York City into the oval office.

Was that accurate?

Edit: I meant to translate the Arab worlds experience with and reaction to change into Modern American politics.

Yup. Radical Islam is behaving much like the Christian White Nationalists here, except the Christians don't really have lost lands to try to reclaim.

I dunno about that. Technically plenty of Christians were forced to flee Europe over the years for various reasons. They could reclaim those lands as "lost".

They should not, though I suspect that eventually they're going to try it.

Is that not what all these ultra-nationalist groups are doing already? Trying to "take back" land that has from their perspective been invaded by Semitic peoples? Nativist political movements all use pretty similar rhetoric at the end of the day.

 

[Playball40]

That's how I learned to do math and physics, including when I took courses late in life: partial credit if you showed your work. I grew up under the ethos that if you got the answer right but did not show your work, the answer was wrong.

My husband teaches at a university and gives partial credit for answers, including mathematical ones, provided work is shown.

The problem comes from teachers with unreasonable standards for showing your work. Every teacher I had that required showing work expected too much--I ended up dropping one class because I expected to flunk out because of this. By far the hardest part of the class was figuring out how to show enough "work" to make his TAs happy--there's no "work" left when I look at what's left and simply know the answer.

It was ingrained in me in…8th grade.

It was a good habit to get into. At a certain point in time, I didn’t always know the answer by looking at the problem.

Hated "showing my work". If I knew the answer because my brain calculated it, why do I have to 'show it'. I did not always know what 'to show'.

 

[Toni]

That's how I learned to do math and physics, including when I took courses late in life: partial credit if you showed your work. I grew up under the ethos that if you got the answer right but did not show your work, the answer was wrong.

My husband teaches at a university and gives partial credit for answers, including mathematical ones, provided work is shown.

The problem comes from teachers with unreasonable standards for showing your work. Every teacher I had that required showing work expected too much--I ended up dropping one class because I expected to flunk out because of this. By far the hardest part of the class was figuring out how to show enough "work" to make his TAs happy--there's no "work" left when I look at what's left and simply know the answer.

It was ingrained in me in…8th grade.

It was a good habit to get into. At a certain point in time, I didn’t always know the answer by looking at the problem.

Hated "showing my work". If I knew the answer because my brain calculated it, why do I have to 'show it'. I did not always know what 'to show'.

The way I understood it there were two big reasons to show your work:

1. To prove you were not cheating.
2. To get any partial credit if you just didn't do the arithmetic part correctly (for math, physics).

But a big part of it really is because a lot of people see/know the answer but not how to get the answer. And the point of the problem is to learn HOW to get the answer. Making someone go back and write out the steps helps solidify and clarify the process and also shows both the problem solver and the person grading the problem any weak or misunderstood or missing parts of the understanding.

I would never have really 'gotten' that part if I hadn't had to insist one of my kids write out the steps to solve the problem. Like many smart people, the answer was 'obvious' but he didn't really always understand or understand as well as he thought he did WHY that was the correct answer. And if you don't know the whys and hows and all the steps, the more complex problems will be more difficult to solve. A lot of smart people get somewhere into college before reaching that point but if you do get to college without ever having had to study or work to know what the answer is, eventually, you WILL get there and you will lack the skills and confidence to solve the problem efficiently and correctly. If not college, then grad school or real life. So far, I haven't met anyone who hasn't hit the wall at some point, including some exceptionally bright people.

 

[bilby]

Getting the right answer isn't always evidence that someone has understood how to solve the general case of a problem.

Take simplifying fractions, for example:

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Translation in American Terms: White people experienced centuries' worth of change in just a few decades because of slavery. When slaves were freed some people became angry and afraid. They reacted by turning to radical ideas in an attempt to hold on to their traditional way of life. For example voting a big fat orange democrat from New York City into the oval office.

Was that accurate?

Edit: I meant to translate the Arab worlds experience with and reaction to change into Modern American politics.

Yup. Radical Islam is behaving much like the Christian White Nationalists here, except the Christians don't really have lost lands to try to reclaim.

I dunno about that. Technically plenty of Christians were forced to flee Europe over the years for various reasons. They could reclaim those lands as "lost".

They should not, though I suspect that eventually they're going to try it.

What lands in Europe were Christian but now aren't?

 

[Oleg]

What lands in Europe were Christian but now aren't?

 

[Gospel]

Translation in American Terms: White people experienced centuries' worth of change in just a few decades because of slavery. When slaves were freed some people became angry and afraid. They reacted by turning to radical ideas in an attempt to hold on to their traditional way of life. For example voting a big fat orange democrat from New York City into the oval office.

Was that accurate?

Edit: I meant to translate the Arab worlds experience with and reaction to change into Modern American politics.

Yup. Radical Islam is behaving much like the Christian White Nationalists here, except the Christians don't really have lost lands to try to reclaim.

I dunno about that. Technically plenty of Christians were forced to flee Europe over the years for various reasons. They could reclaim those lands as "lost".

They should not, though I suspect that eventually they're going to try it.

What lands in Europe were Christian but now aren't?

Would territories in Europe that were once under Muslim rule and later reclaimed be considered in this context?

 

[TomC]

What lands in Europe were Christian but now aren't?

I don't think that is what @Jarhyn was referring to, exactly.
Lots of Christians were forced to flee Europe by Christians.

My ancestors were among them.
Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Hated "showing my work". If I knew the answer because my brain calculated it, why do I have to 'show it'. I did not always know what 'to show'.

The way I understood it there were two big reasons to show your work:

1. To prove you were not cheating.
2. To get any partial credit if you just didn't do the arithmetic part correctly (for math, physics).

But a big part of it really is because a lot of people see/know the answer but not how to get the answer. And the point of the problem is to learn HOW to get the answer. Making someone go back and write out the steps helps solidify and clarify the process and also shows both the problem solver and the person grading the problem any weak or misunderstood or missing parts of the understanding.

I would never have really 'gotten' that part if I hadn't had to insist one of my kids write out the steps to solve the problem. Like many smart people, the answer was 'obvious' but he didn't really always understand or understand as well as he thought he did WHY that was the correct answer. And if you don't know the whys and hows and all the steps, the more complex problems will be more difficult to solve. A lot of smart people get somewhere into college before reaching that point but if you do get to college without ever having had to study or work to know what the answer is, eventually, you WILL get there and you will lack the skills and confidence to solve the problem efficiently and correctly. If not college, then grad school or real life. So far, I haven't met anyone who hasn't hit the wall at some point, including some exceptionally bright people.

I don't think you're getting it about the problem that Playball40 and I had: It's not a matter of the concept of showing work, but with just how much work is expected to be shown. I don't recall much by now but I do recall things like having reduced it to a simple quadratic equation that I simply knew the answer to. Note that this was in a class that required calculus II as a prerequisite--nobody in there didn't know how to factor a quadratic equation. As I see it, you work through it on paper until it's been reduced to the point that you don't need the paper anymore. Should I show the carry when I hit 16 + 16?

I universally found teachers with show requirements expected unreasonable levels of detail. (Although I had one that was honest--we had a requirement to turn in notes. I turned in maybe 1/3 of what everyone else did--because mine were typed up rather than handwritten. He admitted it bugged him that I had far fewer pages but wasn't omitting things.)

 

[bilby]

Translation in American Terms: White people experienced centuries' worth of change in just a few decades because of slavery. When slaves were freed some people became angry and afraid. They reacted by turning to radical ideas in an attempt to hold on to their traditional way of life. For example voting a big fat orange democrat from New York City into the oval office.

Was that accurate?

Edit: I meant to translate the Arab worlds experience with and reaction to change into Modern American politics.

Yup. Radical Islam is behaving much like the Christian White Nationalists here, except the Christians don't really have lost lands to try to reclaim.

I dunno about that. Technically plenty of Christians were forced to flee Europe over the years for various reasons. They could reclaim those lands as "lost".

They should not, though I suspect that eventually they're going to try it.

What lands in Europe were Christian but now aren't?

Pretty much all of them West of the former Warsaw Pact and north of the Alps/Pyrenees

 

[Toni]

Hated "showing my work". If I knew the answer because my brain calculated it, why do I have to 'show it'. I did not always know what 'to show'.

The way I understood it there were two big reasons to show your work:

1. To prove you were not cheating.
2. To get any partial credit if you just didn't do the arithmetic part correctly (for math, physics).

But a big part of it really is because a lot of people see/know the answer but not how to get the answer. And the point of the problem is to learn HOW to get the answer. Making someone go back and write out the steps helps solidify and clarify the process and also shows both the problem solver and the person grading the problem any weak or misunderstood or missing parts of the understanding.

I would never have really 'gotten' that part if I hadn't had to insist one of my kids write out the steps to solve the problem. Like many smart people, the answer was 'obvious' but he didn't really always understand or understand as well as he thought he did WHY that was the correct answer. And if you don't know the whys and hows and all the steps, the more complex problems will be more difficult to solve. A lot of smart people get somewhere into college before reaching that point but if you do get to college without ever having had to study or work to know what the answer is, eventually, you WILL get there and you will lack the skills and confidence to solve the problem efficiently and correctly. If not college, then grad school or real life. So far, I haven't met anyone who hasn't hit the wall at some point, including some exceptionally bright people.

I don't think you're getting it about the problem that Playball40 and I had: It's not a matter of the concept of showing work, but with just how much work is expected to be shown. I don't recall much by now but I do recall things like having reduced it to a simple quadratic equation that I simply knew the answer to. Note that this was in a class that required calculus II as a prerequisite--nobody in there didn't know how to factor a quadratic equation. As I see it, you work through it on paper until it's been reduced to the point that you don't need the paper anymore. Should I show the carry when I hit 16 + 16?

I universally found teachers with show requirements expected unreasonable levels of detail. (Although I had one that was honest--we had a requirement to turn in notes. I turned in maybe 1/3 of what everyone else did--because mine were typed up rather than handwritten. He admitted it bugged him that I had far fewer pages but wasn't omitting things.)

Actually, I did not have that issue: teachers wanted the usual steps for the course level.

Where I found it a bit confusing was in a theoretical calculus class where we mostly studied proofs. Their idea of QED was not the same as mine and so I struggled. Also struggled because I was misled about being ready for this class. I wasn’t.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Translation in American Terms: White people experienced centuries' worth of change in just a few decades because of slavery. When slaves were freed some people became angry and afraid. They reacted by turning to radical ideas in an attempt to hold on to their traditional way of life. For example voting a big fat orange democrat from New York City into the oval office.

Was that accurate?

Edit: I meant to translate the Arab worlds experience with and reaction to change into Modern American politics.

Yup. Radical Islam is behaving much like the Christian White Nationalists here, except the Christians don't really have lost lands to try to reclaim.

I dunno about that. Technically plenty of Christians were forced to flee Europe over the years for various reasons. They could reclaim those lands as "lost".

They should not, though I suspect that eventually they're going to try it.

What lands in Europe were Christian but now aren't?

Pretty much all of them West of the former Warsaw Pact and north of the Alps/Pyrenees

Huh? Religion has become less and less important but no other religion has taken over. Radical Islam goes nuts over lands that are now Jewish or Christian.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I don't think you're getting it about the problem that Playball40 and I had: It's not a matter of the concept of showing work, but with just how much work is expected to be shown. I don't recall much by now but I do recall things like having reduced it to a simple quadratic equation that I simply knew the answer to. Note that this was in a class that required calculus II as a prerequisite--nobody in there didn't know how to factor a quadratic equation. As I see it, you work through it on paper until it's been reduced to the point that you don't need the paper anymore. Should I show the carry when I hit 16 + 16?

I universally found teachers with show requirements expected unreasonable levels of detail. (Although I had one that was honest--we had a requirement to turn in notes. I turned in maybe 1/3 of what everyone else did--because mine were typed up rather than handwritten. He admitted it bugged him that I had far fewer pages but wasn't omitting things.)

Actually, I did not have that issue: teachers wanted the usual steps for the course level.

Where I found it a bit confusing was in a theoretical calculus class where we mostly studied proofs. Their idea of QED was not the same as mine and so I struggled. Also struggled because I was misled about being ready for this class. I wasn’t.

The problem I had was with the ones that required showing work. Most classes didn't make that an explicit requirement but you would only get partial credit for the parts you had right.

 

[Toni]

I don't think you're getting it about the problem that Playball40 and I had: It's not a matter of the concept of showing work, but with just how much work is expected to be shown. I don't recall much by now but I do recall things like having reduced it to a simple quadratic equation that I simply knew the answer to. Note that this was in a class that required calculus II as a prerequisite--nobody in there didn't know how to factor a quadratic equation. As I see it, you work through it on paper until it's been reduced to the point that you don't need the paper anymore. Should I show the carry when I hit 16 + 16?

I universally found teachers with show requirements expected unreasonable levels of detail. (Although I had one that was honest--we had a requirement to turn in notes. I turned in maybe 1/3 of what everyone else did--because mine were typed up rather than handwritten. He admitted it bugged him that I had far fewer pages but wasn't omitting things.)

Actually, I did not have that issue: teachers wanted the usual steps for the course level.

Where I found it a bit confusing was in a theoretical calculus class where we mostly studied proofs. Their idea of QED was not the same as mine and so I struggled. Also struggled because I was misled about being ready for this class. I wasn’t.

The problem I had was with the ones that required showing work. Most classes didn't make that an explicit requirement but you would only get partial credit for the parts you had right.

No, I understood. I had courses that REQUIRED that we show our work for full credit. I didn’t necessarily like that requirement but I didn’t have a problem fulfilling that requirement. To me it was stupid to miss points because I didn’t like the requirement.

 

[Shadowy Man]

The only class I ever taught was physics. Showing your work was required. Getting the numerical answer correct was a very small fraction of any problem’s points.

 

[bilby]

Translation in American Terms: White people experienced centuries' worth of change in just a few decades because of slavery. When slaves were freed some people became angry and afraid. They reacted by turning to radical ideas in an attempt to hold on to their traditional way of life. For example voting a big fat orange democrat from New York City into the oval office.

Was that accurate?

Edit: I meant to translate the Arab worlds experience with and reaction to change into Modern American politics.

Yup. Radical Islam is behaving much like the Christian White Nationalists here, except the Christians don't really have lost lands to try to reclaim.

I dunno about that. Technically plenty of Christians were forced to flee Europe over the years for various reasons. They could reclaim those lands as "lost".

They should not, though I suspect that eventually they're going to try it.

What lands in Europe were Christian but now aren't?

Pretty much all of them West of the former Warsaw Pact and north of the Alps/Pyrenees

Huh? Religion has become less and less important but no other religion has taken over. Radical Islam goes nuts over lands that are now Jewish or Christian.

The question was:

What lands in Europe were Christian but now aren't?

My answer isn't even addressed by your attempted goalpost move, and remains correct.

"No other religion" has, as you correctly observe, taken over.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Translation in American Terms: White people experienced centuries' worth of change in just a few decades because of slavery. When slaves were freed some people became angry and afraid. They reacted by turning to radical ideas in an attempt to hold on to their traditional way of life. For example voting a big fat orange democrat from New York City into the oval office.

Was that accurate?

Edit: I meant to translate the Arab worlds experience with and reaction to change into Modern American politics.

Yup. Radical Islam is behaving much like the Christian White Nationalists here, except the Christians don't really have lost lands to try to reclaim.

I dunno about that. Technically plenty of Christians were forced to flee Europe over the years for various reasons. They could reclaim those lands as "lost".

They should not, though I suspect that eventually they're going to try it.

What lands in Europe were Christian but now aren't?

Pretty much all of them West of the former Warsaw Pact and north of the Alps/Pyrenees

Huh? Religion has become less and less important but no other religion has taken over. Radical Islam goes nuts over lands that are now Jewish or Christian.

The question was:

What lands in Europe were Christian but now aren't?

My answer isn't even addressed by your attempted goalpost move, and remains correct.

"No other religion" has, as you correctly observe, taken over.

That's just an absence of faith, not an enemy faith.

 

[Toni]

Getting the right answer isn't always evidence that someone has understood how to solve the general case of a problem.

Take simplifying fractions, for example:

View attachment 42708

As weird as this is to you, I was never taught that technique.

 

[bigfield]

That's how I learned to do math and physics, including when I took courses late in life: partial credit if you showed your work. I grew up under the ethos that if you got the answer right but did not show your work, the answer was wrong.

My husband teaches at a university and gives partial credit for answers, including mathematical ones, provided work is shown.

The problem comes from teachers with unreasonable standards for showing your work. Every teacher I had that required showing work expected too much--I ended up dropping one class because I expected to flunk out because of this. By far the hardest part of the class was figuring out how to show enough "work" to make his TAs happy--there's no "work" left when I look at what's left and simply know the answer.

It was ingrained in me in…8th grade.

It was a good habit to get into. At a certain point in time, I didn’t always know the answer by looking at the problem.

Hated "showing my work". If I knew the answer because my brain calculated it, why do I have to 'show it'. I did not always know what 'to show'.

The way I understood it there were two big reasons to show your work:

1. To prove you were not cheating.
2. To get any partial credit if you just didn't do the arithmetic part correctly (for math, physics).

But a big part of it really is because a lot of people see/know the answer but not how to get the answer. And the point of the problem is to learn HOW to get the answer. Making someone go back and write out the steps helps solidify and clarify the process and also shows both the problem solver and the person grading the problem any weak or misunderstood or missing parts of the understanding.

I would never have really 'gotten' that part if I hadn't had to insist one of my kids write out the steps to solve the problem. Like many smart people, the answer was 'obvious' but he didn't really always understand or understand as well as he thought he did WHY that was the correct answer. And if you don't know the whys and hows and all the steps, the more complex problems will be more difficult to solve. A lot of smart people get somewhere into college before reaching that point but if you do get to college without ever having had to study or work to know what the answer is, eventually, you WILL get there and you will lack the skills and confidence to solve the problem efficiently and correctly. If not college, then grad school or real life. So far, I haven't met anyone who hasn't hit the wall at some point, including some exceptionally bright people.

And once people leave school, they may face problems that they were never shown in school, which require a systematic approach to solve.

 

[bilby]

That's just an absence of faith, not an enemy faith.

An absence of faith is a bigger enemy to any faith than a different faith could ever be.