The for-profit college industry: An education in moral depravity

[Axulus]

Axulus, but they are not serving poor, not at 2:1 marketing to teaching ratio.
Poor with good grades could and should get to regular university. They are serving themselves taking money from the stupid poor.

They have helped 0 people who otherwise would not or could not attend a traditional college - do you have evidence for that? I'm not saying they can't be improved upon, but claiming they have done nothing whatsoever is something else entirely.

 

[lpetrich]

Yep. Screw those marginal or non-traditional students who are bypassed by traditional colleges. Relegate their useless asses to unemployment or make them bow down and kiss ass to manage a "living wage" job should they be one of the lucky ones.

Boo hoo hoo hoo hoo.

It always amazes me how much the comfortable middle-class left wants to simply ban businesses that serve the poor, the group which they feign sympathy for, leaving them hanging high and dry.

Boo hoo hoo hoo hoo.

They have helped 0 people who otherwise would not or could not attend a traditional college - do you have evidence for that? I'm not saying they can't be improved upon, but claiming they have done nothing whatsoever is something else entirely.

Boo hoo hoo hoo hoo.

So we ought to revive Jonathan Swift's Modest Proposal?

 

[RavenSky]

The DeVry commercial just came on...

I shudder to think what they must be charging in tuition if they are currently offering a $20,000 "scholarship" to attract new suckers.

I think, rather than trying to regulate the word "university", the government should simply regulate universities. No "for-profit" universities at all. Private non-profits or state-run universities and trade schools only; and the loans should be made directly from the government at a very low interest rate - no middle-man lenders.

Frankly, many civilized countries don't charge anything for university, and that would be my first choice for the USA too

Yep. Screw those marginal or non-traditional students who are bypassed by traditional colleges. Relegate their useless asses to unemployment or make them bow down and kiss ass to manage a "living wage" job should they be one of the lucky ones.

What part of my post gave you any indication whatsoever that I would agree with yours?

 

[RavenSky]

The DeVry commercial just came on...

I shudder to think what they must be charging in tuition if they are currently offering a $20,000 "scholarship" to attract new suckers.

I think, rather than trying to regulate the word "university", the government should simply regulate universities. No "for-profit" universities at all. Private non-profits or state-run universities and trade schools only; and the loans should be made directly from the government at a very low interest rate - no middle-man lenders.

Frankly, many civilized countries don't charge anything for university, and that would be my first choice for the USA too

In principle I agree. But I still think that line between profit and not profit is blurry.
Suppose I have developed math course which is fully off-line and involves no actual human teachers. Just an artificial intelligence holo-teacher, then what? I am not an university but if I (as a private for profit company) offer holo-teachers to university, then what would that be?

I imagine we could get to a place where it gets blurry (most things do) but I would think the hypothetical you present would be similar to text book suppliers, etc.

 

[RavenSky]

How do you twist that out of what RavenSky is saying?

Dumb solutions like "we just need to eliminate profit" really piss me off. It shows an utter lack of understanding of unintended consequences. Her solution leads to these kind of consequences (if the non profits were doing such a stellar job of serving these students, there wouldn't be a need for these other kinds of educational institutions).

It always amazes me how much the comfortable middle-class left wants to simply ban businesses that serve the poor, the group which they feign sympathy for, leaving them hanging high and dry.

Oh, now I get it. Your response was just a knee-jerk ideological rant kicked off by the mere sight of a trigger word, without any attempt or ability on your part to actually read or understand what I really wrote.

P.S. I never wrote "we just need to eliminate profit" so who are you quoting?

 

[Playball40]

They are accredited.

But they should not be.

Why? Have you taken any of their classes? Do you know the course content?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

How do you twist that out of what RavenSky is saying?

Dumb solutions like "we just need to eliminate profit" really piss me off. It shows an utter lack of understanding of unintended consequences. Her solution leads to these kind of consequences (if the non profits were doing such a stellar job of serving these students, there wouldn't be a need for these other kinds of educational institutions).

It always amazes me how much the comfortable middle-class left wants to simply ban businesses that serve fuck over the poor, the group which they feign sympathy for, leaving them hanging high and dry.

FIFY.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Axulus, but they are not serving poor, not at 2:1 marketing to teaching ratio.
Poor with good grades could and should get to regular university. They are serving themselves taking money from the stupid poor.

They have helped 0 people who otherwise would not or could not attend a traditional college - do you have evidence for that? I'm not saying they can't be improved upon, but claiming they have done nothing whatsoever is something else entirely.

Is there nothing you can't defend?

 

[barbos]

But they should not be.

Why? Have you taken any of their classes? Do you know the course content?

I saw their TV ads.

 

[braces_for_impact]

These "Universities" that have popped up have become big business and often offer people little in the way of an education, and a lot in the way of debt. A lot of their "courses" are next to useless in the real world. Examples include "Certified Electronics technician" which prepares you for the exciting world of being the guy at Best buy that comes to install your TV - and for only $18,000! "Pharmacy Technician", when most pharmacies in most states either don't require certification or send you themselves. You too can spend $12,000 to make that big $12.00/hr paycheck. They play up the CSI type commercials and offer courses in Criminal Justice, which doesn't exactly get you on crime scenes and in labs like on TV. Now, some of these degrees can be useful, but you have to do the research and resist the salesmen who only want you to get your loan and get your ass in the seat for a few days. Then they have your money and your debt.

I myself went to a computer school to become an Microsoft Certified Systems Analyst, or IT guy. It was very high pressure sales situation, but it was something I wanted to do. The school seemed to check out, and I signed the dotted line for about $26,000.00. Three weeks into the course, my son (whom has severe mental issues) had a breakdown, and I had to leave school for awhile to attend to him. I called the school to let them know what was going on. No problem they said, just resume your courses whenever you're ready they said. The next year I called to resume. They said I couldn't. They also said they would refund NOTHING. I went higher and higher up the chain. Nothing. I called the Better Business Bureau, and anyone else I could think of, even my congressman, no help. I went to school for three weeks and got $26,000 in debt for nothing. So, yeah, I'm a little bitter. I'm also not paying it. I cannot afford it and even if I could, fuck them.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Here's a thought

High School Early College

But not just for a small group but for any student interested and not just for college transfer, but for complete vocational training as well.

Then there won't be such an easy target, I mean, Market for the diploma mills to exploit.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Here's a thought

High School Early College

But not just for a small group but for any student interested and not just for college transfer, but for complete vocational training as well.

Then there won't be such an easy target, I mean, Market for the diploma mills to exploit.

So when Charters do it, it's evil, but when it's that its okay. However what we really need is more schools to focus on the skills that is necessary for the kids that don't need higher ed, but need the vocational training, which we are failing.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Here's a thought

High School Early College

But not just for a small group but for any student interested and not just for college transfer, but for complete vocational training as well.

Then there won't be such an easy target, I mean, Market for the diploma mills to exploit.

So when Charters do it, it's evil, but when it's that its okay.

No you *removed text*. When a charter does it, it implies that Charter School actually has an education model that is admirable and appropriate. Its the Charter Schools who aren't paying their teachers or are running a third world school that are fucked up.

However what we really need is more schools to focus on the skills that is necessary for the kids that don't need higher ed, but need the vocational training, which we are failing.

Not where I went to High School. Schools do need to accelerate their programs and offer more advanced training, both educational and vocational. You could easily take a year out of getting an Engineering or Science degree, by offering more AP level courses.

 

[Axulus]

Yep. Screw those marginal or non-traditional students who are bypassed by traditional colleges. Relegate their useless asses to unemployment or make them bow down and kiss ass to manage a "living wage" job should they be one of the lucky ones.

What part of my post gave you any indication whatsoever that I would agree with yours?

When you carelessly tossed out the phrase "No "for-profit" universities at all."

- - - Updated - - -

Dumb solutions like "we just need to eliminate profit" really piss me off. It shows an utter lack of understanding of unintended consequences. Her solution leads to these kind of consequences (if the non profits were doing such a stellar job of serving these students, there wouldn't be a need for these other kinds of educational institutions).

It always amazes me how much the comfortable middle-class left wants to simply ban businesses that serve the poor, the group which they feign sympathy for, leaving them hanging high and dry.

Oh, now I get it. Your response was just a knee-jerk ideological rant kicked off by the mere sight of a trigger word, without any attempt or ability on your part to actually read or understand what I really wrote.

P.S. I never wrote "we just need to eliminate profit" so who are you quoting?

Did you not say "No "for-profit" universities at all.". That is pretty much a knee-jerk ideological solution typical of the left, deserving of no better than the response you got.

 

[Axulus]

Boo hoo hoo hoo hoo.

It always amazes me how much the comfortable middle-class left wants to simply ban businesses that serve the poor, the group which they feign sympathy for, leaving them hanging high and dry.

Boo hoo hoo hoo hoo.

They have helped 0 people who otherwise would not or could not attend a traditional college - do you have evidence for that? I'm not saying they can't be improved upon, but claiming they have done nothing whatsoever is something else entirely.

Boo hoo hoo hoo hoo.

So we ought to revive Jonathan Swift's Modest Proposal?

Exhibit A of the comfortable middle class left who really doesn't give a damn about actually helping people but would rather punish their deemed enemies or ban things that offend their leftist sensibilities.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Here's a thought

High School Early College

But not just for a small group but for any student interested and not just for college transfer, but for complete vocational training as well.

Then there won't be such an easy target, I mean, Market for the diploma mills to exploit.

So when Charters do it, it's evil, but when it's that its okay.

Charters, if left to being teacher run and not for profit and not constrained within the straight-jacket of high stakes testing,

Are a fine idea.

But that's not were the money is. And it's the money that's the problem.

However what we really need is more schools to focus on the skills that is necessary for the kids that don't need higher ed, but need the vocational training, which we are failing.

Which is what I just said.

 

[Toni]

Boo hoo hoo hoo hoo.


Boo hoo hoo hoo hoo.

They have helped 0 people who otherwise would not or could not attend a traditional college - do you have evidence for that? I'm not saying they can't be improved upon, but claiming they have done nothing whatsoever is something else entirely.

Boo hoo hoo hoo hoo.

So we ought to revive Jonathan Swift's Modest Proposal?

Exhibit A of the comfortable middle class left who really doesn't give a damn about actually helping people but would rather punish their deemed enemies or ban things that offend their leftist sensibilities.

Oh bullshit. I am more than comfortable middle class and I find the profit 'universities' to be an obscenity which preys particularly hard on the poor.

Here's one reason why:

http://www.salon.com/2014/01/25/inside_story_of_a_for_profit_college_nightmare/

Here's another:

http://www.salon.com/2013/06/09/you...t_colleges_prey_on_african_american_ambition/

These so called institutions of higher learning don't help anyone and they are far more expensive that community colleges or tech schools which truly do help students become prepared for the job market and often for a traditional 4 year university at a fraction of the cost of for profit 'schools.'

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Exhibit A of the comfortable middle class left who really doesn't give a damn about actually helping people but would rather punish their deemed enemies or ban things that offend their leftist sensibilities.

Oh noes! Pathological altruism strikes again!

 

[doubtingt]

Axulus, but they are not serving poor, not at 2:1 marketing to teaching ratio.
Poor with good grades could and should get to regular university. They are serving themselves taking money from the stupid poor.

They have helped 0 people who otherwise would not or could not attend a traditional college - do you have evidence for that? I'm not saying they can't be improved upon, but claiming they have done nothing whatsoever is something else entirely.

Have they unintentionally enable a small % of their students to improve their employment options enough to offset the $40,000 in loan debt?
Sure, but for each one of those, there are 10 students who gained nothing from the school but massive debt they live under for decades.
The positive outcomes are rare and unintended because these schools deliberately spend as little as possible on educating their students so they can spend more on conning suckers to leverage away their future via manipulative marketing and recruiting.

Yep. Screw those marginal or non-traditional students who are bypassed by traditional colleges. Relegate their useless asses to unemployment or make them bow down and kiss ass to manage a "living wage" job should they be one of the lucky ones.

Nope. Non-tradictional students are served by the community colleges that provide superior education at a fraction of the cost to the students (around $1,500 per year for full time enrollment). Most community colleges provide the kind of occupationally and skills focuses programs and courses that for profit trade schools claim to provide, from accounting, graphic design, nursing, and other health occupations to apprenticeship training in electrical and construction specialties.
Students are not choosing for-profit schools because they actually provide something not otherwise available. It is because these schools spend so much $ on marketing and recruiting, whereas community colleges spend their money on instructors and facilities. None of the additional $18,500 in tuition (about 13 times the cost) that they pay is not going toward their education but in the pockets of shareholders and a portion into the marketing.

BTW, I don't support banning these schools, just eliminating grants and gov subsidized loans to students who attend them. If these schools actually provided the training they claim and such a unique service available nowhere else as you claim, then the schools can just subsidize the loans themselves by not making tuition payments due until after the student leaves school and gets that high paying career.

 

[Toni]

Here's a thought

High School Early College

But not just for a small group but for any student interested and not just for college transfer, but for complete vocational training as well.

Then there won't be such an easy target, I mean, Market for the diploma mills to exploit.

I live in am area where there are many PSEO courses: opportunities for high school students to take coursework at colleges and tech schools tuition free.

Here are the issues I see, based on how this works locally:

1. Local school districts receive funding based upon student count. If students are spending time at other sites, schools lose funding. Also local schools who are increasingly judged and funded based upon student test scores so losing top performing students to these programs costs them finding this way.

2. Many of these "college level" classes are taught by high school teachers ( to avoid cost in #1 above) calling into question whether the classes really are college level. In my experience, they are not.

3. Should 16 year olds be on a university campus with college students? I have concerns. Intellectually: sure. Socially? Maybe not.

I have no doubt that schools should be much more rigorous and do a better job preparing students for the next step of their lives.