The Force Awakens.

[CJW]

I just hope the word "midichlorians' isn't in the script.

 

[Underseer]

Apologies for upping such an old thread - and mine to boot. But it seems to fit well enough.

http://www.movie-list.com/trailers/starwars7#trailer

The latest trailer and the main poster have arrived. Plus tickets are available.

Odd trailer. Seems like it fits a generic type of action film. At least at first.

Thanks.

The trailer follows the typical formula for action films, but that doesn't say as much about the film as it does about the specialists who compose the trailers.

Eh, they did show that Kylen Ro is obsessed with Vader.

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I just hope the word "midichlorians' isn't in the script.

They have been pretty good about addressing the various complaints fans had about the prequel trilogy, including this complaint. I'm pretty sure midichlorians will not be mentioned at all.

 

[bigfield]

Some miscellaneous Internet users are losing their minds over the fact that the leads are a black man and a woman. I don't care about any political motivations for the casting; from an artistic point of view it's nice to see some variety.


Plus the bad guy is still a white dude, so there's that.

They have been pretty good about addressing the various complaints fans had about the prequel trilogy, including this complaint. I'm pretty sure midichlorians will not be mentioned at all.

And hopefully no more aliens patterned after racial stereotypes. George Lucas probably would have made Kylo Ren a yellow alien with a Fun Manchu tentacle-moustache and a Chinese accent.

 

[Underseer]

Some miscellaneous Internet users are losing their minds over the fact that the leads are a black man and a woman. I don't care about any political motivations for the casting; from an artistic point of view it's nice to see some variety.


Plus the bad guy is still a white dude, so there's that.

They have been pretty good about addressing the various complaints fans had about the prequel trilogy, including this complaint. I'm pretty sure midichlorians will not be mentioned at all.

And hopefully no more aliens patterned after racial stereotypes. George Lucas probably would have made Kylo Ren a yellow alien with a Fun Manchu tentacle-moustache and a Chinese accent.

Honestly, the most disturbing race metaphor in Star Wars is droids. The droids are clearly a metaphor for slavery, and none of the heroes ever question it. At all.

 

[bigfield]

Some miscellaneous Internet users are losing their minds over the fact that the leads are a black man and a woman. I don't care about any political motivations for the casting; from an artistic point of view it's nice to see some variety.

Plus the bad guy is still a white dude, so there's that.

And hopefully no more aliens patterned after racial stereotypes. George Lucas probably would have made Kylo Ren a yellow alien with a Fun Manchu tentacle-moustache and a Chinese accent.

Honestly, the most disturbing race metaphor in Star Wars is droids. The droids are clearly a metaphor for slavery, and none of the heroes ever question it. At all.

After reading I, Robot and the RobotsTrilogy by Asimov, I don't necessarily see the moral imperative to treat the 'droids as equal to humans. Some 'droids may be intelligent but they do not share the human condition, at least not with respect to motivations and needs.

The difference between droids and humans is that droids do not necessarily suffer if they are programmed for servitude, whereas we know that, as humans, we do suffer as slaves.

 

[beero1000]

Honestly, the most disturbing race metaphor in Star Wars is droids. The droids are clearly a metaphor for slavery, and none of the heroes ever question it. At all.

After reading I, Robot and the RobotsTrilogy by Asimov, I don't necessarily see the moral imperative to treat the 'droids as equal to humans. Some 'droids may be intelligent but they do not share the human condition, at least not with respect to motivations and needs.

The difference between droids and humans is that droids do not necessarily suffer if they are programmed for servitude, whereas we know that, as humans, we do suffer as slaves.

Lol. I'd be willing to bet that there are a whole bunch of quotes from slave-owners talking about how their slaves don't suffer from servitude, and actually prefer it. But of course, as Real People^TM, they themselves shouldn't be slaves, it would be unethical...

 

[credoconsolans]

After reading I, Robot and the RobotsTrilogy by Asimov, I don't necessarily see the moral imperative to treat the 'droids as equal to humans. Some 'droids may be intelligent but they do not share the human condition, at least not with respect to motivations and needs.

The difference between droids and humans is that droids do not necessarily suffer if they are programmed for servitude, whereas we know that, as humans, we do suffer as slaves.

Lol. I'd be willing to bet that there are a whole bunch of quotes from slave-owners talking about how their slaves don't suffer from servitude, and actually prefer it. But of course, as Real People^TM, they themselves shouldn't be slaves, it would be unethical...

Ye gods. Droids are machines. They get mindwiped constantly.

It's like you're upset you're overworking your Blu Ray Player because it may want to rest and maybe have its own life and participate in the decision making process.

Really? I mean really?

It's normal to anthropomorphize a machine, but remember, the folks in a GFFA do that intentionally to get along better with their machines. THEY do that, not the machines. There is no suggestion of AI in a GFFA.

I think they have a better idea of how droids fit into every day life than we do.

 

[thebeave]

Maybe everyone would be happy if we made sure all droids were painted white, instead of brown.

 

[Bomb#20]

After reading I, Robot and the RobotsTrilogy by Asimov, I don't necessarily see the moral imperative to treat the 'droids as equal to humans. Some 'droids may be intelligent but they do not share the human condition, at least not with respect to motivations and needs.

The difference between droids and humans is that droids do not necessarily suffer if they are programmed for servitude, whereas we know that, as humans, we do suffer as slaves.

Lol. I'd be willing to bet that there are a whole bunch of quotes from slave-owners talking about how their slaves don't suffer from servitude, and actually prefer it. But of course, as Real People^TM, they themselves shouldn't be slaves, it would be unethical...

No doubt; but approaching it from this direction begs the question of whether the droids suffer. After all, you aren't about to go all "Bicentennial Man" on behalf of IBM's "Watson", are you? Bigfield has a fair point, taking into account what we know about actual AIs. But it seems to me what we really need to take into account are the stipulated facts about droids in the Lucasverse.

Han Solo: "Let him have it. It's not wise to upset a Wookiee."
C-3PO: "But sir, nobody worries about upsetting a droid."

Those aren't the words of an AI who doesn't mind being treated as less than human.

 

[bilby]

Some miscellaneous Internet users are losing their minds over the fact that the leads are a black man and a woman. I don't care about any political motivations for the casting; from an artistic point of view it's nice to see some variety.


Plus the bad guy is still a white dude, so there's that.

Still? Are you saying that James Earl Jones has been a white guy all these years? 'Cos if so, his makeup team are awesome.

 

[credoconsolans]

Lol. I'd be willing to bet that there are a whole bunch of quotes from slave-owners talking about how their slaves don't suffer from servitude, and actually prefer it. But of course, as Real People^TM, they themselves shouldn't be slaves, it would be unethical...

No doubt; but approaching it from this direction begs the question of whether the droids suffer. After all, you aren't about to go all "Bicentennial Man" on behalf of IBM's "Watson", are you? Bigfield has a fair point, taking into account what we know about actual AIs. But it seems to me what we really need to take into account are the stipulated facts about droids in the Lucasverse.

Han Solo: "Let him have it. It's not wise to upset a Wookiee."
C-3PO: "But sir, nobody worries about upsetting a droid."

Those aren't the words of an AI who doesn't mind being treated as less than human.

But that could just be a logical/factual statement, made by a machine.

 

[Underseer]

Honestly, the most disturbing race metaphor in Star Wars is droids. The droids are clearly a metaphor for slavery, and none of the heroes ever question it. At all.

After reading I, Robot and the RobotsTrilogy by Asimov, I don't necessarily see the moral imperative to treat the 'droids as equal to humans. Some 'droids may be intelligent but they do not share the human condition, at least not with respect to motivations and needs.

The difference between droids and humans is that droids do not necessarily suffer if they are programmed for servitude, whereas we know that, as humans, we do suffer as slaves.

Really?

Because if you read the I, Robot series of short stories and novels by Asimov, one thing that should have become clear is that in pretty much every case, the robots turn out to be more moral than their human creators.

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After reading I, Robot and the RobotsTrilogy by Asimov, I don't necessarily see the moral imperative to treat the 'droids as equal to humans. Some 'droids may be intelligent but they do not share the human condition, at least not with respect to motivations and needs.

The difference between droids and humans is that droids do not necessarily suffer if they are programmed for servitude, whereas we know that, as humans, we do suffer as slaves.

Lol. I'd be willing to bet that there are a whole bunch of quotes from slave-owners talking about how their slaves don't suffer from servitude, and actually prefer it. But of course, as Real People^TM, they themselves shouldn't be slaves, it would be unethical...

I'm sure that's the rationalization religious leaders use for deceiving believers. We as humans are "programmed for servitude," therefore what they do to their followers is not wrong.

 

[bigfield]

After reading I, Robot and the RobotsTrilogy by Asimov, I don't necessarily see the moral imperative to treat the 'droids as equal to humans. Some 'droids may be intelligent but they do not share the human condition, at least not with respect to motivations and needs.

The difference between droids and humans is that droids do not necessarily suffer if they are programmed for servitude, whereas we know that, as humans, we do suffer as slaves.

Really?

Because if you read the I, Robot series of short stories and novels by Asimov, one thing that should have become clear is that in pretty much every case, the robots turn out to be more moral than their human creators.

I don't disagree with your statement, but also I don't see the relevance.

 

[Underseer]

Really?

Because if you read the I, Robot series of short stories and novels by Asimov, one thing that should have become clear is that in pretty much every case, the robots turn out to be more moral than their human creators.

I don't disagree with your statement, but also I don't see the relevance.

It sounded like you were saying that you found the slavery metaphors in Star Wars acceptable because of the relationship between robots and humans in I, Robot. I don't think their servitude was justified there either, and I think that was the point Asimov was trying to get across.

 

[bigfield]

I don't disagree with your statement, but also I don't see the relevance.

It sounded like you were saying that you found the slavery metaphors in Star Wars acceptable because of the relationship between robots and humans in I, Robot. I don't think their servitude was justified there either, and I think that was the point Asimov was trying to get across.

I didn't get that impression from the books, at all. The robots' servitude was justified by the fact that they were made to be slaves.

The same cannot be said of humans, which is why the attitudes of 'droid/robot owners is not comparable to human slave owners.

Is there a particular Asimov story that stands out to you as making this point about slavery?

 

[dystopian]

I didn't get that impression from the books, at all. The robots' servitude was justified by the fact that they were made to be slaves.

The same cannot be said of humans, which is why the attitudes of 'droid/robot owners is not comparable to human slave owners.

Uhm... that's *exactly* what's been said of human slave populations, though.

For the majority of history, the circumstances of ones birth (ie; what you were 'made' to be) justified whatever treatment one received because of it. Born a slave? Whatever shit was thrown on you was entirely justified, including slavery itself. If you do not accept the argument that being born a slave justifies your enslavement, then you really shouldn't accept that argument when it concerns a sapient AI. The argument doesn't suddenly become valid because the subject's existence conforms to different conditions.

 

[credoconsolans]

I didn't get that impression from the books, at all. The robots' servitude was justified by the fact that they were made to be slaves.

The same cannot be said of humans, which is why the attitudes of 'droid/robot owners is not comparable to human slave owners.

Uhm... that's *exactly* what's been said of human slave populations, though.

That's what's been said, but obviously incorrectly. Droids are, in fact, made to be tools. Period.

 

[dystopian]

That's what's been said, but obviously incorrectly.

Obviously? It obviously is *not* obvious; or it wouldn't have taken 6000+ years of history for us to finally stop using the argument.

More than that, it isn't even necessarily incorrect. While true that humans as a species weren't 'made' to be slaves; they also weren't 'made' to be free. Indeed, the species wasn't "made" to do anything. *Individual* human beings, however, have explicitly been made with many purposes in mind over the history, including slavery. A slave-master who instructs his slaves to copulate with the intention of creating future generations of slaves, is, in a very real sense, fashioning himself a new set of tools. In such a scenario there is no special attribute that makes the slave-child fundamentally different from a tool in terms of its intended purpose: which means that the argument that a droid's slavery is justified by the fact it was made to be a tool also justifies some forms of human slavery.

Anything else is fallacious special pleading.

 

[credoconsolans]

That's what's been said, but obviously incorrectly.

Obviously? It obviously is *not* obvious; or it wouldn't have taken 6000+ years of history for us to finally stop using the argument.

Nonsense. The ancient Romans often freed slaves or they bought their own freedom and became freedmen with full rights and their children became full citizens. Obviously not everyone shares the idea of slaves not being human.

More than that, it isn't even necessarily incorrect. While true that humans as a species weren't 'made' to be slaves; they also weren't 'made' to be free. Indeed, the species wasn't "made" to do anything. *Individual* human beings, however, have explicitly been made with many purposes in mind over the history, including slavery. A slave-master who instructs his slaves to copulate with the intention of creating future generations of slaves, is, in a very real sense, fashioning himself a new set of tools. In such a scenario there is no special attribute that makes the slave-child fundamentally different from a tool in terms of its intended purpose: which means that the argument that a droid's slavery is justified by the fact it was made to be a tool also justifies some forms of human slavery.

Anything else is fallacious special pleading.

Machines are not human. They are tools. Droids are not humans or even alive. They are tools. Period.

 

[ZiprHead]

Besides if the Jedi were practical, they'd be using guns instead of swords.

I had read that Harrison Ford was sick as a dog on the day of this scene shoot. He was originally supposed to fight the sword wielder but it was changed because of HF's illness. Actually became one of the memorable scenes.