The Four Freedoms

[AthenaAwakened]

Are they still relevent?
Are they still attainable?

Are they worth fighting for?

Freedom of speech
Freedom of worship
Freedom from want
Freedom from fear

 

[dismal]

I'd be pretty scared of a government that tried to give me "freedom from fear".

 

[PyramidHead]

I'd be pretty scared of a government that tried to give me "freedom from fear".

Are there any governments on this planet that do not scare you, dismal? Could you name one?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I'd be pretty scared of a government that tried to give me "freedom from fear".

Are there any governments on this planet that do not scare you, dismal? Could you name one?

I was walking down the street at night one day and saw Mayor Rob Ford coming towards me. I just pissed my pants in terror, turned around and ran. Crackheads can be dangerous.

 

[dismal]

I'd be pretty scared of a government that tried to give me "freedom from fear".

Are there any governments on this planet that do not scare you, dismal? Could you name one?

I don't fear the ones that can't affect my life much.

But anyway...

 

[Nice Squirrel]

I'd be pretty scared of a government that tried to give me "freedom from fear".

probably because you already have one that does that

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Just so we know...

Is there a rightwinger on the boards that can take on a WHOLE OP? I mean, if you agree with some of it say so, and then explain what you don't agree with. Is it the agreeing part that gets you? Is that act of agreeing disagreeable to you?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Are they still relevent?
Are they still attainable?

Are they worth fighting for?

Freedom of speech
Freedom of worship
Freedom from want
Freedom from fear

I'd be pretty scared of a government that tried to give me "freedom from fear".

I would also be afraid of a government that tried to give freedom from want.

If you can't fail there's little reason to try.

 

[gmbteach]

I'd be pretty scared of a government that tried to give me "freedom from fear".

Are there any governments on this planet that do not scare you, dismal? Could you name one?

TBH my government - both state and federal, scare the fuck out of me at the moment. They have given themselves massive pay rises, and now want to increase taxes and reduce education and health services as well as reduce pensioner concessions. So yes, I am scared to death of these cockheads.

 

[bilby]

I'd be pretty scared of a government that tried to give me "freedom from fear".

I would also be afraid of a government that tried to give freedom from want.

If you can't fail there's little reason to try.

What the fuck is so great about having to try? As far as I can see, the people who don't have to try at all, and just get anything they want handed to them on a plate, are pretty happy with the whole deal.

 

[bilby]

I'd be pretty scared of a government that tried to give me "freedom from fear".

Are there any governments on this planet that do not scare you, dismal? Could you name one?

TBH my government - both state and federal, scare the fuck out of me at the moment. They have given themselves massive pay rises, and now want to increase taxes and reduce education and health services as well as reduce pensioner concessions. So yes, I am scared to death of these cockheads.

The scariest thing is that they are moving towards being more like the USA - More God, less compassion, more self-reliance, more platitudes about small government combined with self-centred and self-enriching corruption.

I sometimes wonder why so many Americans are scared of government; but then I look at what passes for government in the USA, and it all becomes much less surprising.

What amazes me is that they seem to have bought the bullshit that further moves to the right are actually improvements; 'small government' means getting rid of the services that people want, while keeping the corruption, but it is sold as the opposite, and people are actually dumb enough to fall for it, over, and over, and over again.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

I'd be pretty scared of a government that tried to give me "freedom from fear".

I would also be afraid of a government that tried to give freedom from want.

If you can't fail there's little reason to try.

how is freedom from want equal to little reason to try? Million dollar athletes with more money than god don't stop winning games. Dr Dre us officially a billionaire, he is still producing music. Doctors, lawyers, bankers, inventors, all can and many do become millionaires and continue to work well past 65.

What about the long term unemployed who have tried and failed and now have given up looking for work? How about the people who decome so depressed by failure that they kill themselves? Seems like failing over and over again leads to little reason to try.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'd be pretty scared of a government that tried to give me "freedom from fear".

I would also be afraid of a government that tried to give freedom from want.

If you can't fail there's little reason to try.

What the fuck is so great about having to try? As far as I can see, the people who don't have to try at all, and just get anything they want handed to them on a plate, are pretty happy with the whole deal.

If there is no try there is little around to be handed to the people--the system falls apart.

- - - Updated - - -

I'd be pretty scared of a government that tried to give me "freedom from fear".

I would also be afraid of a government that tried to give freedom from want.

If you can't fail there's little reason to try.

how is freedom from want equal to little reason to try? Million dollar athletes with more money than god don't stop winning games. Dr Dre us officially a billionaire, he is still producing music. Doctors, lawyers, bankers, inventors, all can and many do become millionaires and continue to work well past 65.

What about the long term unemployed who have tried and failed and now have given up looking for work? How about the people who decome so depressed by failure that they kill themselves? Seems like failing over and over again leads to little reason to try.

Some people are motivated by things beyond money. Most, however, if they have no unfilled wants are not going to work.

 

[boneyard bill]

I'd be pretty scared of a government that tried to give me "freedom from fear".

I would also be afraid of a government that tried to give freedom from want.

If you can't fail there's little reason to try.

how is freedom from want equal to little reason to try? Million dollar athletes with more money than god don't stop winning games. Dr Dre us officially a billionaire, he is still producing music. Doctors, lawyers, bankers, inventors, all can and many do become millionaires and continue to work well past 65.

What about the long term unemployed who have tried and failed and now have given up looking for work? How about the people who decome so depressed by failure that they kill themselves? Seems like failing over and over again leads to little reason to try.

Thank you for posting this. Of course, I'd heard of FDR's four freedoms before, but I hadn't heard the actual speech in which he mentioned them.

The first two are relatively uncontroversial. For anyone to possess them, the only thing that needs to be done is nothing at all. To prevent me from exercising my right of free speech or practicing the religion of my choice it is necessary for someone to intervene to prevent me. So these things are easily achievable.

The second two, however, create problems. We must first dismiss them as abstract notions. It seems clear the FDR has more specific meanings involved. Who can ever have freedom from want? As Madonna put it, in her song "More." "When you've got it all, the one thing you'll lack is MORE!" But there is another sense in which the term "want" means a life-threatening deprivation, and I think that it is clear that FDR is using the term in this more limited sense.

The problem here is that for a government to secure such a freedom for one person, it much actively take resources from another. This has not been a really big problem for most of American history. State and local governments dealt with such problems through "poor relief" and in cooperation with various charitable institutions which were much larger in the 19th century than they are today. But if you expand the term "want" to mean not merely the bare necessities of life you get into far greater problems. Bread lines and soup kitchens and flop houses then become insufficient. We've expanded the definition to embrace the notion of "income equality," and now a much more subjective standard comes into play. State and local governments can't really deal with that as they have wide discrepancies themselves. So now the federal government gets involved, but they're not terribly good at it either, and you throw in the problem of politics and the exploitation of "poverty programs" by clever and politically-connected entrepreneurs.

Another problem with FDR's Freedom from Want is that he addresses it on a global scale. This implies and even more aggressive use of American foreign policy than even Wilson had proposed.

Freedom from Fear is yet another issue that, viewed merely from an abstract perspective, is obviously unattainable if for no other reason than that different people fear different things. But FDR is also clearly using the expression in a concrete sense. He is suggesting a global disarmament and an end, or great reduction in, the possibilities of war. It should be noted that this is somewhat in conflict with the global perspective of his Freedom from Want. How do you bring freedom from want to a people government by an exploitative dictatorship?

It should also be noted that the one man who has probably done the most to advance the freedom from fear in FDR's usage of the term is Ronald Reagan. He is the only US President who successfully negotiated and arms reduction treaty.

 

[boneyard bill]

I'd be pretty scared of a government that tried to give me "freedom from fear".

I would also be afraid of a government that tried to give freedom from want.

If you can't fail there's little reason to try.

What the fuck is so great about having to try? As far as I can see, the people who don't have to try at all, and just get anything they want handed to them on a plate, are pretty happy with the whole deal.

If there is no try there is little around to be handed to the people--the system falls apart.

- - - Updated - - -

I'd be pretty scared of a government that tried to give me "freedom from fear".

I would also be afraid of a government that tried to give freedom from want.

If you can't fail there's little reason to try.

how is freedom from want equal to little reason to try? Million dollar athletes with more money than god don't stop winning games. Dr Dre us officially a billionaire, he is still producing music. Doctors, lawyers, bankers, inventors, all can and many do become millionaires and continue to work well past 65.

What about the long term unemployed who have tried and failed and now have given up looking for work? How about the people who decome so depressed by failure that they kill themselves? Seems like failing over and over again leads to little reason to try.

Some people are motivated by things beyond money. Most, however, if they have no unfilled wants are not going to work.

Yes, before ANYBODY can be free from want, SOMEBODY has to produce stuff.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I don't want a government that would try to give me "freedom from want" or "freedom from fear".

I'd scrap the four freedoms and try for these ten freedoms instead.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


Amendment II

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


Amendment III

No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.


Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.


Amendment VI

In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.


Amendment VII

In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.


Amendment VIII

Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.


Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.


Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.


As far as I can tell, in this country the ten freedoms are not considered relevant, attainable, and only fringe kooks think they are still worth fighting for.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Freedom from want is not freedom from desire, not freedom from drive.

(I think all reading this know that, but I will state it before we go down various rabbit holes)


Freedom from fear does not mean that fear is eradicated, but faced and worked through.

if we forever keep fear and want, what need have we to speak? What god must we worship (for as long as we are enslaved to fear, we will worship something, we may not call it god, but we will worship something)?

 

[Unbeatable]

Some people are motivated by things beyond money. Most, however, if they have no unfilled wants are not going to work.

Everybody has or can develop unfilled wants beyond the sorts of basic needs that FDR is referring to when using the term "want". Solve someone's third-world-problems and they'll develop first-world problems. Permanent fulfillment is probably impossible barring some sort of medical condition. What you're talking about is mostly resignation, demoralization, learned helplessness, etc.

I'd be pretty scared of a government that tried to give me "freedom from fear".

Sure, if a government tried to singlehandedly achieve "freedom from fear, which, translated into world terms, means a world-wide reduction of armaments to such a point and in such a thorough fashion that no nation will be in a position to commit an act of physical aggression against any neighbor—anywhere in the world", that could be messy depending on how they go about it. But unless the government is essentially insane, isn't the most likely method of going about achieving FDR's "freedom from fear" going to be a gradual, long term process made up of international agreements and such?

 

[arkirk]

Everybody has or can develop unfilled wants beyond the sorts of basic needs that FDR is referring to when using the term "want". Solve someone's third-world-problems and they'll develop first-world problems. Permanent fulfillment is probably impossible barring some sort of medical condition. What you're talking about is mostly resignation, demoralization, learned helplessness, etc.

I'd be pretty scared of a government that tried to give me "freedom from fear".

Sure, if a government tried to singlehandedly achieve "freedom from fear, which, translated into world terms, means a world-wide reduction of armaments to such a point and in such a thorough fashion that no nation will be in a position to commit an act of physical aggression against any neighbor—anywhere in the world", that could be messy depending on how they go about it. But unless the government is essentially insane, isn't the most likely method of going about achieving FDR's "freedom from fear" going to be a gradual, long term process made up of international agreements and such?

It seems funny to me that people want to cling onto WANT and FEAR. Loren wants us to keep both of these feelings close at hand to keep us working. He is worried that we won't work enough. Overworked sweat shop slaves WANT to work less and FEAR they will be required to work more. Let's cut out this semantic bullshit.

We need to redistribute wealth to some degree, and also redefine the work that must be done to keep us all healthy, fed, clothed and lodged. That would entail a more egalitarian approach to the scope of works our society engages in. None of us is going to get out of this alive, but while we are alive, would it not be better for more people to live decent lives, decently nourished, decently housed, and decently employed? I don't think Franklin was too far off base. He was not always right, but just mostly right.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Freedom from want is not freedom from desire, not freedom from drive.

(I think all reading this know that, but I will state it before we go down various rabbit holes)


Freedom from fear does not mean that fear is eradicated, but faced and worked through.

if we forever keep fear and want, what need have we to speak? What god must we worship (for as long as we are enslaved to fear, we will worship something, we may not call it god, but we will worship something)?

Desire is what you want.