The Manhood Trap

[Loren Pechtel]

Or is it that the woman is always right, it's not possible for a woman to make a false allegation?

Of course it's possible.

That's why it is beholden on you, and every other man, to make sure that you get to know her well, before you put yourself into her power.

If you don't, it's on you. Too bad; So sad.

If you let your dick do the thinking, then you have to accept the concommitant risks.

Why are you trying to have sex with a woman you don't have good reason to trust? Are you a fucking idiot??

I'm talking about what happens in the real world. Hooking up is utterly not my thing, but a lot of people do it. And society should not be adding artificial risks to things.

Besides, you live in a glass house.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The question was whether it existed. Clearly it does. I didn't do a detailed search. And of course they're old--people don't discuss active cases. The issue is expulsion (or pseudo-expulsion: keeping him out of any classes they share effectively expels them if they're in the same year and same degree--that is, classmates) based on accusation. That's going to be a major blow (good luck getting into another school when they found out why) with no recourse.

He was removed due to accusations of sexual harassment. With male predators being held account these days, schools likely need to adapt to being able to manage some level of judicial review. The best option would be for the state legal board to create an outline for guidance. Of course, a school is a school, not a court. We rarely ever have a person accused of assault admit to it. So there will usually be some level of doubt as there are two sides. Being able to manage it evenly and fairly is important.

Of course, the number of people being expelled because of this seems awfully small.

Keyword "allegations". In other words, punished without any trial.

Schools and businesses should not be managing any sort of judicial review, they're always going to botch it. If it's a criminal matter send it to the police, honor what they say. (For example, the parent that got kicked out of the Google ecosystem because they used their phone to send a picture to their child's pediatrician. It's just what was being imaged was on said child's penis. Cops said not kiddie porn, Google doesn't care.)

The key word was sexual harassment not rape. You fucked that part up.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I wonder what the world would look like if for a week or a month or a school term, men were subjected to the types of harassment and threat of assault and actual assault women routinely are subjected to.

In other words, punish men for the sins of other men.

Experiencing what women experience is considered punishment? Empathy and understanding is punishment?

 

[Swammerdami]

In high school we read To Kill a Mockingbird. My teacher described Atticus Finch as a caricature of a masculine ideal: he was gentle, kind, and learned, and a great shot with a gun but only when it was absolutely necessary. It is childish (as befitting the story's narrator) but also a clear cut picture of a man being a hero. I expect that when most people think about the kind of men that they want to have around them, in their homes, their workplaces and their communities, then they'll think of men who share many of Atticus's virtues, and standing in strong contrast to the likes of the Proud Boys or Andrew Tate.

Young men generally want to feel a sense of belonging, to be wanted. This has several facets: they want to have a role to play in their community (their job, their community groups), they want to be desired by young women (with notable exceptions), they want to be help in high esteem by the people in their family, neighbourhood and social circles.

Boys nowadays grow up with countless examples of male behaviour. They aren't just learning from the men in their local community, they're learning from social media, TV, and films, plus all the advertising that's mixed in with the actual content. It's a lot to take in, and a lot of it is over the top. As someone I knew put it, "boys don't know how to act anymore." He lamented the fact that the masculine ideals of his childhood were no longer being celebrated in popular culture, and that there was no longer a clear model to follow....

Bigfield "hits the nail on the head" with this post. The clean focused morality of yesteryear has been replaced with ambiguity and worse. Contrast the stalwart heroes of 1960's TV series with the duplicitous, sarcastic and womanizing "heroes" of present-day TV. Society suffers from such poor role models, and that leads to dysfunctional politics.

My view can be caricatured to pretend I'm advocating an old-fashioned misogynist or racist morality. The fact that that might be a common reaction from "the left" is just evidence that my point is correct. Successful societies have always had a strong moral foundation; this is especially important when educating children.

He lamented the fact that the masculine ideals of his childhood were no longer being celebrated in popular culture, and that there was no longer a clear model to follow

Is this true? I mean, I definitely remember Atticus being talked up quite a bit in my English classes,

You don't mention the date (TKAM was a 1960 novel) and, anyway the Atticus Finch ideal has NOT disappeared, it's just being drowned out in a surfeit of inferior and defective "ideals."

and I would be very surprised indeed to learn that he is no longer held up as a masculine ideal by Americans in general. If anything, a bit of a mob formed to defend his imaginary honor, when Lee published a somewhat less flattering sequel. I've never in my life heard anyone describe his portrayal in the original book as "toxic", and would be surprised to. Especially if it were in the context of a high school classroom.

Did Bigfield or myself suggest the Atticus persona was "toxic"?
I wrote

the Atticus Finch ideal has NOT disappeared, it's just being drowned out in a surfeit of inferior and defective "ideals."

 

[GenesisNemesis]

I wonder what the world would look like if for a week or a month or a school term, men were subjected to the types of harassment and threat of assault and actual assault women routinely are subjected to.

In other words, punish men for the sins of other men.

If you don't believe in collective punishment, why then do you support punishing Palestinians for the sins of other Palestinians?

 

[robnisch]

NPR's show On Point has been doing a series on the education of boys. Falling Behind.
https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2025/08/30/falling-behind-how-to-talk-with-boys
A lot of it relates to this subject.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Keyword "allegations". In other words, punished without any trial.

Schools and businesses should not be managing any sort of judicial review, they're always going to botch it. If it's a criminal matter send it to the police, honor what they say. (For example, the parent that got kicked out of the Google ecosystem because they used their phone to send a picture to their child's pediatrician. It's just what was being imaged was on said child's penis. Cops said not kiddie porn, Google doesn't care.)

The key word was sexual harassment not rape. You fucked that part up.

No. Sexual harassment or rape, doesn't change the basic issue of having their life screwed over based only on an allegation.

 

[Toni]

Keyword "allegations". In other words, punished without any trial.

Schools and businesses should not be managing any sort of judicial review, they're always going to botch it. If it's a criminal matter send it to the police, honor what they say. (For example, the parent that got kicked out of the Google ecosystem because they used their phone to send a picture to their child's pediatrician. It's just what was being imaged was on said child's penis. Cops said not kiddie porn, Google doesn't care.)

The key word was sexual harassment not rape. You fucked that part up.

No. Sexual harassment or rape, doesn't change the basic issue of having their life screwed over based only on an allegation.

AFAIK, no one has been expelled based on only an allegation of sexual assault.

If student A reports a sexual assault to the school, the school is obligated to investigate and take appropriate action. This may be expulsion. It may involve finding a way to separate the purported assailant from the purported victim during the investigatory period. Level of difficulty would depend upon circumstances. Were they roommates? Share classes? Live In the same dorm? Off campus?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Keyword "allegations". In other words, punished without any trial.

Schools and businesses should not be managing any sort of judicial review, they're always going to botch it. If it's a criminal matter send it to the police, honor what they say. (For example, the parent that got kicked out of the Google ecosystem because they used their phone to send a picture to their child's pediatrician. It's just what was being imaged was on said child's penis. Cops said not kiddie porn, Google doesn't care.)

The key word was sexual harassment not rape. You fucked that part up.

No. Sexual harassment or rape, doesn't change the basic issue of having their life screwed over based only on an allegation.

AFAIK, no one has been expelled based on only an allegation of sexual assault.

If student A reports a sexual assault to the school, the school is obligated to investigate and take appropriate action. This may be expulsion. It may involve finding a way to separate the purported assailant from the purported victim during the investigatory period. Level of difficulty would depend upon circumstances. Were they roommates? Share classes? Live In the same dorm? Off campus?

Did you not read those cases I linked?

 

[Toni]

Keyword "allegations". In other words, punished without any trial.

Schools and businesses should not be managing any sort of judicial review, they're always going to botch it. If it's a criminal matter send it to the police, honor what they say. (For example, the parent that got kicked out of the Google ecosystem because they used their phone to send a picture to their child's pediatrician. It's just what was being imaged was on said child's penis. Cops said not kiddie porn, Google doesn't care.)

The key word was sexual harassment not rape. You fucked that part up.

No. Sexual harassment or rape, doesn't change the basic issue of having their life screwed over based only on an allegation.

AFAIK, no one has been expelled based on only an allegation of sexual assault.

If student A reports a sexual assault to the school, the school is obligated to investigate and take appropriate action. This may be expulsion. It may involve finding a way to separate the purported assailant from the purported victim during the investigatory period. Level of difficulty would depend upon circumstances. Were they roommates? Share classes? Live In the same dorm? Off campus?

Did you not read those cases I linked?

I read lawyers’ extremely biased assertions.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Keyword "allegations". In other words, punished without any trial.

Schools and businesses should not be managing any sort of judicial review, they're always going to botch it. If it's a criminal matter send it to the police, honor what they say. (For example, the parent that got kicked out of the Google ecosystem because they used their phone to send a picture to their child's pediatrician. It's just what was being imaged was on said child's penis. Cops said not kiddie porn, Google doesn't care.)

The key word was sexual harassment not rape. You fucked that part up.

No. Sexual harassment or rape, doesn't change the basic issue of having their life screwed over based only on an allegation.

AFAIK, no one has been expelled based on only an allegation of sexual assault.

If student A reports a sexual assault to the school, the school is obligated to investigate and take appropriate action. This may be expulsion. It may involve finding a way to separate the purported assailant from the purported victim during the investigatory period. Level of difficulty would depend upon circumstances. Were they roommates? Share classes? Live In the same dorm? Off campus?

Did you not read those cases I linked?

I read lawyers’ extremely biased assertions.

Unfortunately, this is the sort of thing it's very hard to find a neutral voice. Are you saying what they said was false??

 

[laughing dog]

Keyword "allegations". In other words, punished without any trial.

Schools and businesses should not be managing any sort of judicial review, they're always going to botch it. If it's a criminal matter send it to the police, honor what they say. (For example, the parent that got kicked out of the Google ecosystem because they used their phone to send a picture to their child's pediatrician. It's just what was being imaged was on said child's penis. Cops said not kiddie porn, Google doesn't care.)

The key word was sexual harassment not rape. You fucked that part up.

No. Sexual harassment or rape, doesn't change the basic issue of having their life screwed over based only on an allegation.

AFAIK, no one has been expelled based on only an allegation of sexual assault.

If student A reports a sexual assault to the school, the school is obligated to investigate and take appropriate action. This may be expulsion. It may involve finding a way to separate the purported assailant from the purported victim during the investigatory period. Level of difficulty would depend upon circumstances. Were they roommates? Share classes? Live In the same dorm? Off campus?

Did you not read those cases I linked?

I read lawyers’ extremely biased assertions.

Unfortunately, this is the sort of thing it's very hard to find a neutral voice. Are you saying what they said was false??

If is incomplete and self-serving. Universities and colleges are restricted by law what they can reveal. So all the public sees is the accused’s version and maybe the victim’s side of the story.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Keyword "allegations". In other words, punished without any trial.

Schools and businesses should not be managing any sort of judicial review, they're always going to botch it. If it's a criminal matter send it to the police, honor what they say. (For example, the parent that got kicked out of the Google ecosystem because they used their phone to send a picture to their child's pediatrician. It's just what was being imaged was on said child's penis. Cops said not kiddie porn, Google doesn't care.)

The key word was sexual harassment not rape. You fucked that part up.

No. Sexual harassment or rape, doesn't change the basic issue of having their life screwed over based only on an allegation.

AFAIK, no one has been expelled based on only an allegation of sexual assault.

If student A reports a sexual assault to the school, the school is obligated to investigate and take appropriate action. This may be expulsion. It may involve finding a way to separate the purported assailant from the purported victim during the investigatory period. Level of difficulty would depend upon circumstances. Were they roommates? Share classes? Live In the same dorm? Off campus?

Did you not read those cases I linked?

I read lawyers’ extremely biased assertions.

Unfortunately, this is the sort of thing it's very hard to find a neutral voice. Are you saying what they said was false??

They are paid to create a very particular narrative.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Unfortunately, this is the sort of thing it's very hard to find a neutral voice. Are you saying what they said was false??

If is incomplete and self-serving. Universities and colleges are restricted by law what they can reveal. So all the public sees is the accused’s version and maybe the victim’s side of the story.

The "victims" could present their side. They generally don't.

Besides, if the school had a good basis for expelling them a lawyer wouldn't take the case.

 

[Elixir]

Besides, if the school had a good basis for expelling them a lawyer wouldn't take the case.

Wut?
You think guilty scumbags can’t get lawyers?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Unfortunately, this is the sort of thing it's very hard to find a neutral voice. Are you saying what they said was false??

If is incomplete and self-serving. Universities and colleges are restricted by law what they can reveal. So all the public sees is the accused’s version and maybe the victim’s side of the story.

The "victims" could present their side. They generally don't.

Actually they present their side in legal documents. It is technically illegal to lie on legal documents.

Do you go up to all sexual assault victims and demand to hear "their side"?

Besides, if the school had a good basis for expelling them a lawyer wouldn't take the case.

Are you for real?! What lawyer would ever take the case of a sex offender?

 

[Toni]

Unfortunately, this is the sort of thing it's very hard to find a neutral voice. Are you saying what they said was false??

If is incomplete and self-serving. Universities and colleges are restricted by law what they can reveal. So all the public sees is the accused’s version and maybe the victim’s side of the story.

The "victims" could present their side. They generally don't.

Besides, if the school had a good basis for expelling them a lawyer wouldn't take the case.

Victims may be reluctant to come forward because misogynist assholes refer to them as ‘victims’. And much, much worse.

Their ‘side’ would never be presented by the accused’s lawyers. Hell, we do not even know the accused’s side. We only know his attorney’s well crafted for public consumption storyline.

Lawyers for defense clients take cases of their clients or their clients’ parents can pay.

 

[Toni]

Unfortunately, this is the sort of thing it's very hard to find a neutral voice. Are you saying what they said was false??

If is incomplete and self-serving. Universities and colleges are restricted by law what they can reveal. So all the public sees is the accused’s version and maybe the victim’s side of the story.

The "victims" could present their side. They generally don't.

Actually they present their side in legal documents. It is technically illegal to lie on legal documents.

Do you go up to all sexual assault victims and demand to hear "their side"?

Besides, if the school had a good basis for expelling them a lawyer wouldn't take the case.

Are you for real?! What lawyer would ever take the case of a sex offender?

Loren lives in his own private world, safely cocooned in layer upon layer of middle to upper middle class white boy privilege.

Women who drink and/or accuse rapists of raping them as well as black and brown people are definitely not on the same level as Loren’s entire world.

 

[laughing dog]

Unfortunately, this is the sort of thing it's very hard to find a neutral voice. Are you saying what they said was false??

If is incomplete and self-serving. Universities and colleges are restricted by law what they can reveal. So all the public sees is the accused’s version and maybe the victim’s side of the story.

The "victims" could present their side. They generally don't.

The victims do present their side to the school. They are not required to go public.

Besides, if the school had a good basis for expelling them a lawyer wouldn't take the case.

Lawyers in these cases tend to get paid by the billable hour, so I think you are naive.

 

[Bronzeage]

Unfortunately, this is the sort of thing it's very hard to find a neutral voice. Are you saying what they said was false??

If is incomplete and self-serving. Universities and colleges are restricted by law what they can reveal. So all the public sees is the accused’s version and maybe the victim’s side of the story.

The "victims" could present their side. They generally don't.

Besides, if the school had a good basis for expelling them a lawyer wouldn't take the case.

That's not the way it works. A lawyer's obligation to their client is to make a plausible argument based on the law and supported by the evidence(or at least for non-Trump lawyers). The Judge or the Jury are the finder of facts. There are probably unlimited arguments which can be made when the dispute is centered on a school's code of conduct, not legal statutes.

There is a big difference between the responsibility of the legal system and a school or other organization. The court is concerned with the legal rights of an individual and their actions in the past. This is an important point.

I was once dragged into a soap opera at work, when a female employee was having an affair with her supervisor. We didn't have any kind of written policy on this kind of thing. She decided to end the affair and he didn't take it very well. She complained to the general manager and all she wanted was to be transferred to a different department. The GM called the company attorney to ask for advice. The female employee said she felt threatened because the she had seen the supervisor drive past her house more than once. The attorney's basic view was, if the company did nothing and the supervisor actually did something in the future which harmed the woman, the company could be liable. The supervisor was fired, not for what he did in the past, but for what he might do. He was fired not to protect the woman, but to protect the company.

If a school is informed of a student who may be a hazard in the future, the standard of "reasonable doubt" does not apply. Whether they expel him to protect other students from harm, or to protect their financial interests, doesn't really matter. If they allow a known hazard to continue, they are now complicit and will have to shoulder the blame for whatever happens.