The normalization of kink

[Emily Lake]

lol. sorry I derailed. My opinion is Kink should be kept private and if public it must be at the appropriate time/place.

For me it's more... Dress as you like, be social as you will, but mind the "volume".

In a tangential fashion, I have a staff I carry around with me everywhere. It HAD until recently been decorated with a shiny metal chain and a fabulous, fluffy, shimmering turkey body feather, with various gems dangling off smaller chains. It was, in it's gentle and quiet rustling very loud.

I realized this the other day; It had been seen enough. The result was that I replaced the metal chain with a silk ribbon, rich and fine in its own way. The turkey feather is now a much smaller pair of parakeet feathers and some cat whiskers. All the gems are there, but jumped immediately to the ribbon without leads. It bespeaks much more richness and poshness now, but it is far less loud.

Even with a pretty stick, too much ostentatiousness is not really appreciated.

There are a lot of good reasons I guess, for even the more liberal among us to lend social pressure to keeping ones life from crescendoing into something others will find noxiously disruptive. This does not require sheltering the young from knowledge of themselves nor does it require suppression of the "abnormal". It just requires keeping our lives to be lived at respectable volumes.

I generally agree with you. I'm just of the opinion that rainbow dildo butt monkey and most drag costumes are too "loud" for grade-school children .

 

[Emily Lake]

i consider it more appropriate than for an adult person in a costume that teaches the fantasy that an all powerful sky fairy got mad because a mud man and his rib woman ate some fruit so we had to nail a cosmic space jew to a tree in order to pay off our sin mortgage.

Even though I disagree with your view on the topic, this description of christianity is solid gold.

 

[Elixir]

There may be more to it for you but the law as it stands essentially says Kink should be kept private and if public it must be at the appropriate time/place.

That's not even possible.
My kinks are internal reactions.

There's a News Radio episode where Dave reveals that he has a kink where he gets excited when his girlfriend is mad at him. So he teases Lisa until she's angry. She's having a fight. Anyone in the vicinity thinks they're having a fight. He's enjoying a kink. you can't possibly police that sort of thing.

You're conflating kinks with obscenity and while they may overlap, they're not the same.
Or kinks and porn. A lot of my porn isn't even PG or NSFW.

Sometimes a submarine is just a submarine.

 

[Emily Lake]

There's a News Radio episode where Dave reveals that he has a kink where he gets excited when his girlfriend is mad at him. So he teases Lisa until she's angry. She's having a fight. Anyone in the vicinity thinks they're having a fight. He's enjoying a kink.

Interesting example. Have you given any thought to whether Lisa is considered to have consented to fulfilling Dave's kink? Is she a willing and enthusiastically engaged partner in this venture toward sexual gratification?

Consider two of the most common kinks out there: voyeurism and exhibitionism. Exhibitionists get off on being seen in a sexual context by people who don't want to see them. Voyeurs get off on seeing other people in a sexual context without the knowledge or consent of the people they're watching. The turn on in both of those cases is directly linked to the lack of consent of the other person.

 

[Jarhyn]

lol. sorry I derailed. My opinion is Kink should be kept private and if public it must be at the appropriate time/place.

For me it's more... Dress as you like, be social as you will, but mind the "volume".

In a tangential fashion, I have a staff I carry around with me everywhere. It HAD until recently been decorated with a shiny metal chain and a fabulous, fluffy, shimmering turkey body feather, with various gems dangling off smaller chains. It was, in it's gentle and quiet rustling very loud.

I realized this the other day; It had been seen enough. The result was that I replaced the metal chain with a silk ribbon, rich and fine in its own way. The turkey feather is now a much smaller pair of parakeet feathers and some cat whiskers. All the gems are there, but jumped immediately to the ribbon without leads. It bespeaks much more richness and poshness now, but it is far less loud.

Even with a pretty stick, too much ostentatiousness is not really appreciated.

There are a lot of good reasons I guess, for even the more liberal among us to lend social pressure to keeping ones life from crescendoing into something others will find noxiously disruptive. This does not require sheltering the young from knowledge of themselves nor does it require suppression of the "abnormal". It just requires keeping our lives to be lived at respectable volumes.

I generally agree with you. I'm just of the opinion that rainbow dildo butt monkey and most drag costumes are too "loud" for grade-school children .

You don't get to decide what is loud for others. You get to decide what is loud for you.

Further, here you have not described "volume" you have described "content".

And even so, drag is not too much for grade school children. It's something in fact that, for their own good, they deserve to know is a thing available to them (ie, wearing whatever clothing they like).

By denying them the conversation, you deny the power to discuss extent.

By not discussing drag, cross dressing, or any other gender conformity issues, my ex came to the conclusion that the proper way to dress after her transition was "like a hyperbolic hooker".

In many ways, not teaching drag, and the set and setting for drag vs cross-dressing, vs prostitution signalling, will lead to more inappropriate volumes of such behavior in public. You have failed your goal by pursuing it in this way

 

[Emily Lake]

I generally agree with you. I'm just of the opinion that rainbow dildo butt monkey and most drag costumes are too "loud" for grade-school children .

You don't get to decide what is loud for others. You get to decide what is loud for you.

Further, here you have not described "volume" you have described "content".

And even so, drag is not too much for grade school children. It's something in fact that, for their own good, they deserve to know is a thing available to them (ie, wearing whatever clothing they like).

By denying them the conversation, you deny the power to discuss extent.

By not discussing drag, cross dressing, or any other gender conformity issues, my ex came to the conclusion that the proper way to dress after her transition was "like a hyperbolic hooker".

In many ways, not teaching drag, and the set and setting for drag vs cross-dressing, vs prostitution signalling, will lead to more inappropriate volumes of such behavior in public. You have failed your goal by pursuing it in this way

Let's talk two things. First, age range. I get what you're saying in general terms... but I'm not convinced that drag is a reasonable thing to teach a six year old about. That said, I'm a huge non-fan of gender roles and behavioral expectations. And I think gender conformity is a load of smelly rotten bollocks. I absolutely agree that children should be taught that they can wear whatever style of clothing they like and have whatever hair cut they wish and play with any toy they want and engage in activities that they enjoy, with no consideration at all whether they're a boy or a girl.

Second thing... I draw a distinction between cross dressing and drag. Cross dressers wear clothing and decorations commonly associated with the opposite sex. I support cross dressing, I think it should be more common and more acceptable. And quite frankly, I think it should just be considered "dressing" and leave it at that. Drag, on the other hand, I view as being the minstrel show of gender. It's a caricature of womanhood. Drag queens put on "woman face" and "perform womanhood" in a way that I view as pretty fundamentally degrading to women. There's also a pretty large amount of misogyny wrapped up in drag performances. As a pretty straightforward example, referring to actual women as "fish" or "fishy" is pretty fucking degrading and sexist.

 

[Jarhyn]

I generally agree with you. I'm just of the opinion that rainbow dildo butt monkey and most drag costumes are too "loud" for grade-school children .

You don't get to decide what is loud for others. You get to decide what is loud for you.

Further, here you have not described "volume" you have described "content".

And even so, drag is not too much for grade school children. It's something in fact that, for their own good, they deserve to know is a thing available to them (ie, wearing whatever clothing they like).

By denying them the conversation, you deny the power to discuss extent.

By not discussing drag, cross dressing, or any other gender conformity issues, my ex came to the conclusion that the proper way to dress after her transition was "like a hyperbolic hooker".

In many ways, not teaching drag, and the set and setting for drag vs cross-dressing, vs prostitution signalling, will lead to more inappropriate volumes of such behavior in public. You have failed your goal by pursuing it in this way

Let's talk two things. First, age range. I get what you're saying in general terms... but I'm not convinced that drag is a reasonable thing to teach a six year old about. That said, I'm a huge non-fan of gender roles and behavioral expectations. And I think gender conformity is a load of smelly rotten bollocks. I absolutely agree that children should be taught that they can wear whatever style of clothing they like and have whatever hair cut they wish and play with any toy they want and engage in activities that they enjoy, with no consideration at all whether they're a boy or a girl.

Second thing... I draw a distinction between cross dressing and drag. Cross dressers wear clothing and decorations commonly associated with the opposite sex. I support cross dressing, I think it should be more common and more acceptable. And quite frankly, I think it should just be considered "dressing" and leave it at that. Drag, on the other hand, I view as being the minstrel show of gender. It's a caricature of womanhood. Drag queens put on "woman face" and "perform womanhood" in a way that I view as pretty fundamentally degrading to women. There's also a pretty large amount of misogyny wrapped up in drag performances. As a pretty straightforward example, referring to actual women as "fish" or "fishy" is pretty fucking degrading and sexist.

Again, always the master of turning gold to lead.

Drag is the result of expressly rejecting the conformity of gender by embracing a hyperbolic inverse. It's rebellion to the absurdity of gendered expectations.

If you view this as fundamentally degrading 'to women', the best way to prevent it is as I have described: discuss it sanely at a young age with few expectations and in ways that account for respect that you feel is lacking.

But further, sometimes people feel like busting out their Aretha Franklin vibes, getting some big-titty energy going, and having a performance. Sometimes people enjoy watching this event in a quasi-public space. You make these things about you, when they are not. They think about you the way Kieth thinks about Incels when he is getting temporarily suffocated by his wife's chest while riding public transit. Which is to say "not at all" or occasionally "cry more".

 

[Keith&Co.]

There may be more to it for you but the law as it stands essentially says Kink should be kept private and if public it must be at the appropriate time/place.

That's not even possible.
My kinks are internal reactions.

There's a News Radio episode where Dave reveals that he has a kink where he gets excited when his girlfriend is mad at him. So he teases Lisa until she's angry. She's having a fight. Anyone in the vicinity thinks they're having a fight. He's enjoying a kink. you can't possibly police that sort of thing.

You're conflating kinks with obscenity and while they may overlap, they're not the same.
Or kinks and porn. A lot of my porn isn't even PG or NSFW.

Sometimes a submarine is just a submarine.

YOU TAKE THST BACK!!!

 

[Toni]

I generally agree with you. I'm just of the opinion that rainbow dildo butt monkey and most drag costumes are too "loud" for grade-school children .

You don't get to decide what is loud for others. You get to decide what is loud for you.

Further, here you have not described "volume" you have described "content".

And even so, drag is not too much for grade school children. It's something in fact that, for their own good, they deserve to know is a thing available to them (ie, wearing whatever clothing they like).

By denying them the conversation, you deny the power to discuss extent.

By not discussing drag, cross dressing, or any other gender conformity issues, my ex came to the conclusion that the proper way to dress after her transition was "like a hyperbolic hooker".

In many ways, not teaching drag, and the set and setting for drag vs cross-dressing, vs prostitution signalling, will lead to more inappropriate volumes of such behavior in public. You have failed your goal by pursuing it in this way

Yeah, I don’t agree that drag is generally ‘not too much’ for grade school kids, at least in a grade school
classroom. I’m s different if there is someone in their life who enjoys drag.

How do kids know ‘what is available to them’ if it isn’t discussed as part of a lesson plan? Seems to me that people seem to discover what they like and don’t like and under what contexts and circumstances. A grade schooler has zero need to know that her uncle likes My Pretty Pony for completely different reasons than she does. Indeed children need not to have adult sexual needs supersede their own needs to enjoy life without adult sexual connotations invading their lives unduly.

Your partner may have needed some guidance or advice in determining what is appropriate or enjoyable for her. A grade school setting isn’t the right place, though to directly address this. Instead grade schools are very appropriate place to teach and reinforce tolerance and acceptance of others.

 

[TomC]

A lot of my porn isn't even PG or NSFW.

Oh dear.

Please tell me your idea of porno doesn't include Sponge Bob Square Pants.

Tom

 

[Keith&Co.]

There's a News Radio episode where Dave reveals that he has a kink where he gets excited when his girlfriend is mad at him. So he teases Lisa until she's angry. She's having a fight. Anyone in the vicinity thinks they're having a fight. He's enjoying a kink.

Interesting example. Have you given any thought to whether Lisa is considered to have consented to fulfilling Dave's kink?

Have you given thought to prividing the meaning when you say, 'normal'?

And, no, she was not. She wanted to. But she would ask for his deepest fantasy, to bring them closer, and he'd throw out bullshit stories of space prostitutes.
She'd persist, he'd reply with a rooftop dinner, evening above the vity...waiting for the space prostitute. She got pissed that he wasn't sharing, which furthered HIS 'Lisa-mad-at-me' kink.
If she was wise to the actual kink, it would have been touching character development. Not something NR was typically known for.
One person being "IN" on a joke at another's expense was pretty much their sandbox.

Consider two of the most common kinks out there: voyeurism and exhibitionism.

I would have gone with sadism and masochism.
The masochist says, "Beat me!"
And the sadist says, "...No."

One gets what they want, the other is frustrated. The tension creates comedy. Both getting what they want is romance. Would still have been a better love story than Twilight, but not a News Radio episode.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Keith & Co, I genuinely have no idea if you're serious or sarcastic.

Pretty serious right now, actually. Let's go with that.

Alrighty. On a serious note...

Do you allow for any distinction between:
1) Not shaming people for having kinks
and
2) Not approving of sexual practices being a public topic
and
3) Not approving of kinks and uncommon sexual practices being taught to children as normal?

I don't care if people have kinks, provided they're consenting adults. But I don't think they should be a part of public life, no more than I think a discussion of my favorite positions and the dildo I like best should be a part of public life. Furthermore, I don't think that any of that should be framed as 'normal' for children.

I mean, do you really truly think that having an adult person in a costume that involves a large dildo is appropriate for an event aimed at young children?

The problem here is you are mixing up "normal" with "acceptable".

Einstein had a very abnormal (far above the normal) intelligence. Should it have been something he should hide in shame?

Some years back I encountered a 6'8" guy on a plane. Should he have been expected to hide his height in shame? (Although I did warn him to be very careful--the plane was heading to China. I used to have to watch my head all the time at 6'. By now there are very few places where that's going to result into smacking into something, but at 6'8" there are a gazillion hazards about.)

And so what if there's a costume of a large dildo at a children's event? It's not going to have sexual meaning to them. It's simply part of the body. Seeing nudity does not harm children! The data is much slimmer but it does not appear that seeing adult sexual behavior harms children, either. Where the problem comes is when sexual behavior is directed at children.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I usually just return the cart and carry my bags to the car. I'm sure there is a reason for it but coming from a house of 5 and never needing to buy more than I can carry in one visit it puzzles me to see some people with carts filled to the gills. I don't even understand the cases of water bottles (which makes sense to use the cart-to-car method) but in my house, we use two 5 gallon water dispensers where we replace the bottles after 30ish refiles at a local dispenser.

Edit: Well my house kinda cheats because we have two shoppers, my wife and myself.

My last shopping trip involved the purchase of two 25 pound bags at one store and would have also included two 5 pound bags had they had what I wanted. Carry that out?? And where would I have put them while getting my keys out to put them in the trunk?

If my load can be carried in one hand I generally leave the cart at the cart storage.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

This juxtaposition leads to a reality where actually doing it in front of others, given the personal and social complications surrounding it, is just rude in general and well deserving of taboo, at least in human societies.

Taken to a non-adult extreme, I have seen incel posters claiming that it should be illegal for couples to kiss in public, or hold hands. This is taken as a direct assault on incels, an attack based on 'we have a relationship and you never will,' to poke them in the eye.
Beyond extreme, i have seen a demand that men do not buy either diapers in public, or tampons, or condoms, as all are direct taunts for something they will never do.

I've never seen anything that extreme.

Gotta admit, when i hold hands with my wife or my girlfriend in public, the militantly misogynistic manlets are probably the furthest thing from my mind. If they're not, they're close behind the core temperature of Pluto, but it's certainly not aimed at them.

The core temperature of Pluto could actually be somewhat interesting.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I'm constantly informed that knowledge of sex harms children, but find the idea difficult to meaningfully credit. Especially since those who complain about it the loudest usually have an obvious axe to grind with sexual expresssions they find "deviant", while happily propagandizing heterosexual marriage and turning a merry blind eye to the "traditional" but exploitative heterosexual romances that have dominated popular culture since the invention of the novella. If I had a child, I'd be more worried about them reading and enjoying The Three Musketeers (for instance) than encountering a furry on the street. The furry is probably just standing there, and there'd be nothing to really say about them other than, "look at the funny person in the costume"; Dumas by contrast describes multiple rapes and murders, many by his protagonists. These, I would want to sit down and have a serious conversation with the kid about. Which is a more dangerous, dressing up like a fox every so often, or actually hurting other human beings?

Exactly. The furry will simply be someone in a costume to the kid, they're not going to attach a sexual meaning to it and they're not going to be harmed. I can't comment on the Three Musketeers as I haven't read it, but that sounds like something to have a conversation with a kid about if they're reading it.

 

[Jarhyn]

I generally agree with you. I'm just of the opinion that rainbow dildo butt monkey and most drag costumes are too "loud" for grade-school children .

You don't get to decide what is loud for others. You get to decide what is loud for you.

Further, here you have not described "volume" you have described "content".

And even so, drag is not too much for grade school children. It's something in fact that, for their own good, they deserve to know is a thing available to them (ie, wearing whatever clothing they like).

By denying them the conversation, you deny the power to discuss extent.

By not discussing drag, cross dressing, or any other gender conformity issues, my ex came to the conclusion that the proper way to dress after her transition was "like a hyperbolic hooker".

In many ways, not teaching drag, and the set and setting for drag vs cross-dressing, vs prostitution signalling, will lead to more inappropriate volumes of such behavior in public. You have failed your goal by pursuing it in this way

Yeah, I don’t agree that drag is generally ‘not too much’ for grade school kids, at least in a grade school
classroom. I’m s different if there is someone in their life who enjoys drag.

How do kids know ‘what is available to them’ if it isn’t discussed as part of a lesson plan? Seems to me that people seem to discover what they like and don’t like and under what contexts and circumstances. A grade schooler has zero need to know that her uncle likes My Pretty Pony for completely different reasons than she does. Indeed children need not to have adult sexual needs supersede their own needs to enjoy life without adult sexual connotations invading their lives unduly.

Your partner may have needed some guidance or advice in determining what is appropriate or enjoyable for her. A grade school setting isn’t the right place, though to directly address this. Instead grade schools are very appropriate place to teach and reinforce tolerance and acceptance of others.

This is just silly. The fact is, that someone may be them.

People do often discover what they like and don't like from circumstance and context. Discovering that what they like is within the bounds of consent and acceptable human behavior (or not) comes from education.

A kid doesn't need to be educated in how to rub their penis. Such would be weird and pedophilic. But they absolutely need to know that people rub their penises.

And Toni, you disappoint me. Yes, a grade schooler DOES need to be aware of why her uncle likes MLP so much so she can avoid her uncle in contexts involving MLP. She had a RIGHT to know, so she can avoid that situation of being in a sexual context with one's uncle.

A grade school setting is exactly the context for being educated on appropriateness of setting of tolerance and acceptance.

 

[Toni]

Alrighty. On a serious note...

Do you allow for any distinction between:
1) Not shaming people for having kinks
and
2) Not approving of sexual practices being a public topic
and
3) Not approving of kinks and uncommon sexual practices being taught to children as normal?

I don't care if people have kinks, provided they're consenting adults. But I don't think they should be a part of public life, no more than I think a discussion of my favorite positions and the dildo I like best should be a part of public life. Furthermore, I don't think that any of that should be framed as 'normal' for children.

I mean, do you really truly think that having an adult person in a costume that involves a large dildo is appropriate for an event aimed at young children?

The problem here is you are mixing up "normal" with "acceptable".

Einstein had a very abnormal (far above the normal) intelligence. Should it have been something he should hide in shame?

Some years back I encountered a 6'8" guy on a plane. Should he have been expected to hide his height in shame? (Although I did warn him to be very careful--the plane was heading to China. I used to have to watch my head all the time at 6'. By now there are very few places where that's going to result into smacking into something, but at 6'8" there are a gazillion hazards about.)

And so what if there's a costume of a large dildo at a children's event? It's not going to have sexual meaning to them. It's simply part of the body. Seeing nudity does not harm children! The data is much slimmer but it does not appear that seeing adult sexual behavior harms children, either. Where the problem comes is when sexual behavior is directed at children.

Little kids definitely know that they are expected to keep their penises inside their pants except in the bathroom. Kids don’t need to be around people wearing dildoes.

 

[Jarhyn]

Alrighty. On a serious note...

Do you allow for any distinction between:
1) Not shaming people for having kinks
and
2) Not approving of sexual practices being a public topic
and
3) Not approving of kinks and uncommon sexual practices being taught to children as normal?

I don't care if people have kinks, provided they're consenting adults. But I don't think they should be a part of public life, no more than I think a discussion of my favorite positions and the dildo I like best should be a part of public life. Furthermore, I don't think that any of that should be framed as 'normal' for children.

I mean, do you really truly think that having an adult person in a costume that involves a large dildo is appropriate for an event aimed at young children?

The problem here is you are mixing up "normal" with "acceptable".

Einstein had a very abnormal (far above the normal) intelligence. Should it have been something he should hide in shame?

Some years back I encountered a 6'8" guy on a plane. Should he have been expected to hide his height in shame? (Although I did warn him to be very careful--the plane was heading to China. I used to have to watch my head all the time at 6'. By now there are very few places where that's going to result into smacking into something, but at 6'8" there are a gazillion hazards about.)

And so what if there's a costume of a large dildo at a children's event? It's not going to have sexual meaning to them. It's simply part of the body. Seeing nudity does not harm children! The data is much slimmer but it does not appear that seeing adult sexual behavior harms children, either. Where the problem comes is when sexual behavior is directed at children.

Little kids definitely know that they are expected to keep their penises inside their pants except in the bathroom. Kids don’t need to be around people wearing dildoes.

And adults don't need to be making dumb arguments on internet forums. This is not about NEED so much as "what is actually best", and you have yet to justify in any way that you know what that is, and that this is categorically not it, to let kids have an open, healthy, and honest understanding of sexuality and gender.

I made worse decisions when I was more ignorant, with the ignorance contributing to the badness of my decision making. I can't imagine this does anything for kids by delaying their understanding other than delaying the onset of responsible decisions being made.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I went to San Francisco once for a professional conference. I'd always heard so much about the culture and the awesomeness... and I was severely let down. I was in downtown, and the entire place smelled of urine. I took a guided walking tour of the area, including some of Chinatown... and the number of half-clothed filthy drug-using people doing things in public that you shouldn't oughtta be doing in public was astonishing. The way our guide just blithely passed by as if that were no big deal was so weird to me.

Sounds like it's gotten worse.

Long ago I was at a trade show there. I made a morning foray into some of Chinatown locating what I was planning to bring back for my wife. Seemed perfectly ordinary. Late in the afternoon I repeat the trip except I'm heading directly to my objective, get my stuff and go--and I'm propositioned by a hooker heading out of the store. It was hard to believe I was in the same place I had been in the morning.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Scratching attendance of any future LP children’s events.