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The predominant factor in black deaths by police is more crimes commited - not racism

Hmm, I stand corrected. At least the ch 4 article didn't push that view.

Max on this board actually claims that black people are genetically more prone to violent crime?

That in itself would be an interesting read if he defended that view.
 
Hmm, I stand corrected. At least the ch 4 article didn't push that view.

Max on this board actually claims that black people are genetically more prone to violent crime?

That in itself would be an interesting read if he defended that view.

max has been in a weird meltdown mode since Obama's executive actions on immigration up to and including calling for the president's murder.
 
Hmm, I stand corrected. At least the ch 4 article didn't push that view.

Max on this board actually claims that black people are genetically more prone to violent crime?

That in itself would be an interesting read if he defended that view.

He has argued that they have genetically lower intelligence, which is linked to higher crime. He argued it well and I don't think it was fully refuted. It wad mostly people calling into question validity of IQ, general intelligence and the methods used to test

The bottom line - even if they are genetically a few points lower IQ on average, the within group differences are far larger than the between group averages. It is not a case to treat individuals differently or prejudge them.
 
Hmm, I stand corrected. At least the ch 4 article didn't push that view.

Max on this board actually claims that black people are genetically more prone to violent crime?

That in itself would be an interesting read if he defended that view.


There's no need to push 'that view.' Just mention it. You can even include 'maybe' and still get the point across. The seeds of noxious weeds need little encouragement. After all, it hasn't been that long since a number of 'scientists' pointed to different brain sizes to prove that women and blacks are less intelligent than white men. Never mind that the 'data' on brain sizes was wrong. Likewise, at various points in time, Chinese, Native Americans, and blacks were 'known' to have much higher pain threshholds. Just for starters.
 
You have also made the majority group wealthier, at the expense of those shut out. Basic math tells us that if there are 100 people competing for a share of a pie, and you exclude 18 of them from the competition, those remaining have a better shot at a larger slice.

You are totally ignoring the contribution to the pie of those other 18 if they are selected. If those 18 have the most merit, they'll make the size of the pie larger than the less qualified individuals. Basic math and all that.
Bullshit. Those 18 are forced to contribute to the size of the pie, but excluded from competing for the benefits.
 
Blacks commit far more violent crimes. They make up 13% of the population, but committed 52% of the homicides from 1980-2008. 38.5% of arrests for violent crime in general (rape, murder, robbery, manslaughter) were black, about 3 times their population proportion. Remember this proportion, it will be important for later.

Are the greater numbers of arrests due to racism? Generally no, as concluded by academic studies. The reason? Arrest rates match pretty closely to victimization surveys, suggesting that racism is only a tiny factor, if a factor at all. There is no good evidence here that racism is anything close to significant.

See the full analysis of the data here:

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-black-americans-commit-crime/19439

Now, how many more blacks die at the hands of police? About 3 per million individuals per year for blacks and 1 per million per year for whites, a 3 to 1 rate compared to whites. Now remember that violence crime arrest ratio? Matches almost exactly.

Data for deaths at hands of police by race here:

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-black-americans-killed-police/19423
I appreciate the attempt to bog down in the numbers. The unfortunate reality to your post, however, is an attempt to link unlinked statistics and correlate them through a simple comparison. The man who was selling cigarettes was not participating in any level of a violent crime. I think the cops in Ferguson have muddied the waters so much, we'll never really know whether the officer eventually shot and killed a man who was jaywalking or had just shoplifted from a store (potatO, potahto?). The two teens shot and killed for holding toy guns weren't committing any violent crimes. The stats appear to have similarity, but in the end, aren't congruent.

What we lack are critical statistics that put the killings into light, both in the terms of circumstances and race. Those are the statistics, which don't exist, that we need to determine how race is does or doesn't come into play with shootings.
 
Hmm, I stand corrected. At least the ch 4 article didn't push that view.

Max on this board actually claims that black people are genetically more prone to violent crime?

That in itself would be an interesting read if he defended that view.


There's no need to push 'that view.' Just mention it. You can even include 'maybe' and still get the point across. The seeds of noxious weeds need little encouragement. After all, it hasn't been that long since a number of 'scientists' pointed to different brain sizes to prove that women and blacks are less intelligent than white men. Never mind that the 'data' on brain sizes was wrong. Likewise, at various points in time, Chinese, Native Americans, and blacks were 'known' to have much higher pain threshholds. Just for starters.

Nothing inherently wrong with discussing and examining and testing.and debunking any of those ideas.

Ideas and arguments should never be dismissed merely because they are distasteful.
 
There's no need to push 'that view.' Just mention it. You can even include 'maybe' and still get the point across. The seeds of noxious weeds need little encouragement. After all, it hasn't been that long since a number of 'scientists' pointed to different brain sizes to prove that women and blacks are less intelligent than white men. Never mind that the 'data' on brain sizes was wrong. Likewise, at various points in time, Chinese, Native Americans, and blacks were 'known' to have much higher pain threshholds. Just for starters.

Nothing inherently wrong with discussing and examining and testing.and debunking any of those ideas.

Ideas and arguments should never be dismissed merely because they are distasteful.
But isn't there general consensus that such hypotheses have long been debunked?
 
You have also made the majority group wealthier, at the expense of those shut out. Basic math tells us that if there are 100 people competing for a share of a pie, and you exclude 18 of them from the competition, those remaining have a better shot at a larger slice.

The pie itself is smaller when you exclude 18, because not everyone worked to make the pie as big as possible and when people are arbitrarily excluded from contributing to the pie it has to be smaller.. The majority group is not wealthier, it is poorer.

Wrong. Nobody is excluding the 18 from making the pie larger, just from reaping the benefits. we're talking about slavery, remember? Are you really going to claim that the slaves in the cotton fields contributed nothing to the economy?

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Bullshit. Those 18 are forced to contribute to the size of the pie, but excluded from competing for the benefits.

How are they forced to contribute? I thought we were discussing a situation where they are not allowed to contribute (or be best educated to contribute) by being denied the job position or college admissions slot they are most capable of and qualified for vs. someone else who got it instead?
We were talking about slavery. You claimed that it made everyone poorer. I called bullshit. Stop trying to shift the goalposts.
 
Blacks commit far more violent crimes. They make up 13% of the population, but committed 52% of the homicides from 1980-2008. 38.5% of arrests for violent crime in general (rape, murder, robbery, manslaughter) were black, about 3 times their population proportion. Remember this proportion, it will be important for later.

Are the greater numbers of arrests due to racism? Generally no, as concluded by academic studies. The reason? Arrest rates match pretty closely to victimization surveys, suggesting that racism is only a tiny factor, if a factor at all. There is no good evidence here that racism is anything close to significant.

See the full analysis of the data here:

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-black-americans-commit-crime/19439

Now, how many more blacks die at the hands of police? About 3 per million individuals per year for blacks and 1 per million per year for whites, a 3 to 1 rate compared to whites. Now remember that violence crime arrest ratio? Matches almost exactly.

Data for deaths at hands of police by race here:

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-black-americans-killed-police/19423
I appreciate the attempt to bog down in the numbers. The unfortunate reality to your post, however, is an attempt to link unlinked statistics and correlate them through a simple comparison. The man who was selling cigarettes was not participating in any level of a violent crime. I think the cops in Ferguson have muddied the waters so much, we'll never really know whether the officer eventually shot and killed a man who was jaywalking or had just shoplifted from a store (potatO, potahto?). The two teens shot and killed for holding toy guns weren't committing any violent crimes. The stats appear to have similarity, but in the end, aren't congruent.

What we lack are critical statistics that put the killings into light, both in the terms of circumstances and race. Those are the statistics, which don't exist, that we need to determine how race is does or doesn't come into play with shootings.

The point is people can't claim prevalent racism across the police departments in regards to police killings without providing such data, as there are other possible factors other than race. If the data isn't available to prove it then we can't even evaluate whether or not certain policies or procedures reduce the influence of racism in policing and by how much.
 
We were talking about slavery. You claimed that it made everyone poorer. I called bullshit. Stop trying to shift the goalposts.

Ok, so let's take your simple example and add a few details to it. We have 100 people in society, 3 of them are slave owners, 18 are slaves. One slave owner owns 12 slaves, another owns 5, the last one owns 1 - closer to the real distribution it was back then.

The vast majority of contribution of the pie of the 18 goes to those 3, and very slightly to the other 79 non slave(r) population through lower prices of whatever the slaves make.

Now, the question is whether society as a whole benefits from the slave situation like you claim from the standpoint of the non-slaves and their decedents.

Economics 101 says that labor and capital are substitutes - the cheaper the labor, the less investment in capital - if I have a dollar to spend and I need to increase production, I can spend it by buying more labor or I can spend it by investing in capital. If one dollar buys me more labor (slavery) - then I allocate more dollars to it than capital investment. As a result, capital investment in the country is less. The other 79 therefore become slightly less productive (and earn lower wages) as a result of the diminished capital investment.

Furthermore, what about an alternate situation where there were no slaves, where those individuals are free to obtain an education and develop more skills and work freely for themselves or anyone else? Think of the contributions they could make that would benefit society as a whole. Surely some of those now free slaves would contribute good ideas and or discover something (whether it be new business processes or academic research) that makes the economy and society just a little bit better. In other words, they would contribute to economic growth much more so than they did while slaves. The pie is smaller since they are slaves.

Now let's fast forward to the situation when slavery is outlawed. Our economy has a smaller GDP than it would otherwise have for the reasons above, and the 79 non-slaveholders and their families are all worse off because of it - less tax revenue to support government services, slightly lower wages, and lower capital stock. No question that the 3 slave holding families benefited, but are you really going to argue that their benefit outweighs the loss to the 79 non-slaveholders (to say nothing of the damage to the slaves themselves)?
 
When cops start pulling people over for driving while white, we'll agree with your OP. Until then - bullshit.

What do cop pull overs have anything to do with my OP? I didn't discuss it or cite any data related to it.
 
What about scenarios when race is arguably a predictive indicator of merit? For whatever reason, an equally qualified black candidate and, to a less extent, someone of Hispanic decent for a college admission on paper (SAT and GPA) is a little less likely to earn a four year degree and less likely to move on to a masters or PhD program after earning a four year degree. Various factors are posited to explain it - stress of dealing with family life that is more likely to be poor which can affect grades, desire/incentive to help them out by going to work today by dropping out of college or failing to continue on to graduate school to support them financially, plus other possible reasons. I guess the question is, what determines merit? It would seem to be whomever is the most likely to graduate and maybe continue on to graduate school should be a significant consideration, which means race should be used as a criteria if it is a predictive factor, even though it seems discriminatory. This can at times be true for male vs female as well, depending on the particular graduate program in question (where males may be less likely to complete it than females and vice versa, all else equal on paper). What do you think?

The world has become very selective --I'd say incoherently selective -- about what contexts it will and won't allow discrimination based on immutable characteristics (both legally allowed and socially allowed.)

For example, society -- and the law -- does not blink an eye when young men are charged more on their car insurance excess compared to young women. Yet in the same breath, society balks at charging women more for health insurance, even though women incur more health costs (by bearing children and living longer, on average).

Now, something rubs me the wrong way about disadvantaging (or advantaging) someone for merely belonging to a group with a certain average on a certain immutable characteristic. It seems to me a version of 'the sins of the fathers' being visited upon the sons. So, I don't think men should be charged more than women for motor car insurance, even if men, as a group, are more likely to claim. And nor should women be charged more for health insurance, merely because women claim more. The solution to the former is to ban differential insurance rates for immutable group characteristics (like race or gender). The solution for the latter is single payer health insurance.

Now, it may also be true that, when controlling for grades and aptitude (statistically speaking), Black students might still be less likely to graduate than students of other races. This would mean that, if you were using objective selection criteria alone, Black students with a certain GPA and aptitude score should be less preferred for entry into a course compared to a nonBlack student with the same scores. This would also apply the other way: if it were shown that Black students were more likely to finish a course than nonBlack students with the same GPA and aptitude scores, they should be preferred to those students for entry.

But using race as a criterion so openly might lead to a better graduate completion rate, but opens up a can of worms that's better left shut. So, don't use race as a selection criterion. Just stop discriminating by race. Full stop.

A consequence of a race and gender blind admission process (or hiring process, or promotion process) is that some races and genders will be unevenly represented. For example, in Australia, the dinky little bikes that mail carriers use have an upper weight limit for the rider. Men are taller, heavier, and more obese than women, and so this rule is likely to rule out a lot more men than women from even being able to apply. But it's not arbitrarily ruling them out -- it's related to the job requirements.

While these are good points and this all sounds good on paper, it's worth remembering that one of the reasons for creating affirmative action policies in the first place was to address the seemingly inexplicable disproportion in demographics in communities with regard to highly rewarding job positions. For example, a community that is 20% black whose school district is entirely devoid of black teachers would actually benefit from a hiring initiative that searches for highly qualified black teachers from its own and neighboring communities. One might complain that this is discriminatory since the initiative automatically excludes white teachers from consideration for a job position, but that ignores the fact that the school district is not REQUIRED to offer jobs to anyone at all and makes its hiring decisions based on both its needs and what it feels it can afford. If its administrators identify a need to increase the representation of its minority community among its faculty, it is not discriminatory to non-minorities to attempt to do so.

Put simply: it is a very bizarre position to argue from for a white candidate to protest his not being considered for a job posting that says "Seeking highly qualified educators from a minority background." No doubt they'll still do it, though; I have heard of people attempting to sue employers who excluded them because they were not bilingual (I often wonder if "Did you not realize that the job posting was for a bilingual service rep?" would be the judge's very first question).
 
So . . . no comment on your data basically being incomplete and useless?
 
You're simply assuming there are other factors that explain the difference in the stats--yet your side gets vicious with us if we show (rather than just hypothesize) other causes.

You're also constructing a strawman here. It's not the very high scoring people that are discriminated against. They get in where they want. It's the midrange people where you see the problem--a midrange score for a black to be admitted is basically a do-not-admit for a white.

Well, the only thing I am assuming is that admissions counselors are basically honest when I've talked with them and when I read articles where they are quoted extensively.

If you read what I have written or better yet, the words of admissions counselors, you will see that indeed some perfect scorers do not get into some programs. Because being good at taking tests is no the same as being a good doctor.

I think you will find you are not correct in your other assumptions.

And when you assume, what do you do? Ass-u-me.

To tell the truth would get them nailed. Of course they're lying.
 
So . . . no comment on your data basically being incomplete and useless?

People have said "it could be incomplete and useless because of X", they never demonstrated X, just posited it which I couldn't counter and I already agreed to. So no comment that there is no data that demonstrates racism in police killings and arrests?
 
We were talking about slavery. You claimed that it made everyone poorer. I called bullshit. Stop trying to shift the goalposts.

Ok, so let's take your simple example and add a few details to it. We have 100 people in society, 3 of them are slave owners, 18 are slaves. One slave owner owns 12 slaves, another owns 5, the last one owns 1 - closer to the real distribution it was back then.

The vast majority of contribution of the pie of the 18 goes to those 3, and very slightly to the other 79 non slave(r) population through lower prices of whatever the slaves make.

Now, the question is whether society as a whole benefits from the slave situation like you claim from the standpoint of the non-slaves and their decedents.

Economics 101 says that labor and capital are substitutes - the cheaper the labor, the less investment in capital - if I have a dollar to spend and I need to increase production, I can spend it by buying more labor or I can spend it by investing in capital. If one dollar buys me more labor (slavery) - then I allocate more dollars to it than capital investment. As a result, capital investment in the country is less. The other 79 therefore become slightly less productive (and earn lower wages) as a result of the diminished capital investment.

Furthermore, what about an alternate situation where there were no slaves, where those individuals are free to obtain an education and develop more skills and work freely for themselves or anyone else? Think of the contributions they could make that would benefit society as a whole. Surely some of those now free slaves would contribute good ideas and or discover something (whether it be new business processes or academic research) that makes the economy and society just a little bit better. In other words, they would contribute to economic growth much more so than they did while slaves. The pie is smaller since they are slaves.

Now let's fast forward to the situation when slavery is outlawed. Our economy has a smaller GDP than it would otherwise have for the reasons above, and the 79 non-slaveholders and their families are all worse off because of it - less tax revenue to support government services, slightly lower wages, and lower capital stock. No question that the 3 slave holding families benefited, but are you really going to argue that their benefit outweighs the loss to the 79 non-slaveholders (to say nothing of the damage to the slaves themselves)?
History called to say you're full of shit. History says that slavery was the economic engine of the South, creating the cotton empire.
 
So . . . no comment on your data basically being incomplete and useless?

People have said "it could be incomplete and useless because of X", they never demonstrated X, just posited it which I couldn't counter and I already agreed to. So no comment that there is no data that demonstrates racism in police killings and arrests?

And also no data to prove there isn't racism in police killings and arrests; especially given the fact that the self-reported numbers are also identified as "justifiable" hoomicides which by definition would mean any "non-justifiable" homicides would be left out.
 
We were talking about slavery. You claimed that it made everyone poorer. I called bullshit. Stop trying to shift the goalposts.

Ok, so let's take your simple example and add a few details to it. We have 100 people in society, 3 of them are slave owners, 18 are slaves. One slave owner owns 12 slaves, another owns 5, the last one owns 1 - closer to the real distribution it was back then.

The vast majority of contribution of the pie of the 18 goes to those 3, and very slightly to the other 79 non slave(r) population through lower prices of whatever the slaves make.

Now, the question is whether society as a whole benefits from the slave situation like you claim from the standpoint of the non-slaves and their decedents.

Economics 101 says that labor and capital are substitutes - the cheaper the labor, the less investment in capital - if I have a dollar to spend and I need to increase production, I can spend it by buying more labor or I can spend it by investing in capital. If one dollar buys me more labor (slavery) - then I allocate more dollars to it than capital investment. As a result, capital investment in the country is less. The other 79 therefore become slightly less productive (and earn lower wages) as a result of the diminished capital investment.
You are deeply confused about your terms here. The cost of labor is equivalent to the cost of paying your workers' wages on a regular basis. Slave owners do not pay their slaves, therefore their labor costs are very near zero. They do have fixed costs of feeding and maintaining their slaves, but these amount to operating expenses and are not technically labor costs.

In the chattel slavery system, the slaves are property, not worker. Purchasing a slave IS an investment in capital, since those slaves can then be re-sold to other owners. More importantly, female slaves can be used to cheaply manufacture new baby slaves, which provides a significant return on that original investment 15 years later when the child of that slave can be sold off. If a female slave can be bread four or five times in her life, then that activity alone produces a 400% return on that investment aside from what is gained from other uses of her.

In other words, every penny the slave owners do not have to spend on the cost of labor is immediately spent on capital investments in the slaver commodities market.

Furthermore, what about an alternate situation where there were no slaves, where those individuals are free to obtain an education and develop more skills and work freely for themselves or anyone else? Think of the contributions they could make that would benefit society as a whole. Surely some of those now free slaves would contribute good ideas and or discover something (whether it be new business processes or academic research) that makes the economy and society just a little bit better.
Which is exactly what was SUPPOSED to happen during reconstruction in the aftermath of the Civil War (e.g. "Forty acres and two mules"). But southern society rejected that concept out of pure bitter racism; the slaves were prohibited from working freely, from contributing to society, from taking ownership of or benefitting from their ideas, from seeking an education or from reaping the benefits of it if they should somehow obtain one.

IOW, postwar South artificially excluded the former slaves from the table and the white supremacist establishment continued to split up the pie among themselves. Moreover, because they no could no longer benefit from the capital investment in their human property, the pie actually got SMALLER in the same period, and the south's economic recovery took far longer than it should have.

Now let's fast forward to the situation when slavery is outlawed. Our economy has a smaller GDP than it would otherwise have for the reasons above, and the 79 non-slaveholders and their families are all worse off because of it
Not exactly. Our economy is worse off in the aftermath because the slave-owning class had no way to recoup their investments in human capital. Loosing their slaves means loosing the majority of their capital with no compensation for what they lost. That, in turn, is primarily the fault of John Wilkes Booth assassinating the only man in the Union who would have been willing to compensate the owners for their losses.

No question that the 3 slave holding families benefited, but are you really going to argue that their benefit outweighs the loss to the 79 non-slaveholders (to say nothing of the damage to the slaves themselves)?
That's exactly the same question we're asking NOW, isn't it? Does the availability of cheap sweatshop labor overseas provide a net benefit to our economy, or does it actually sap the strength of our economy by keeping American wages low and making domestic manufacturing unattractive to investors?

The fact is, keeping labor costs down is always a benefit to the investor class, and that is the only class that economists really give a damn about. In antebellum south, the investor class were the slave owners. In modern times, the investor class are multinationals capable of offshoring their manufacturing base. SSDD.
 
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