The Quran

[Lugubert]

Yeah? I didn't get forgiveness out of it so much.

Almost after every sura about killing, stoning or surely put to death there´s a sura taking it all back and saying it´s better to forgive. I actually counted them back in the day and compared with the Bible. In spite of being much shorter the Quran has more lines about the importance of forgiveness than the Bible.

There is that thing about the Quran needing to be read in the original language. It´s not so much that Arabic is a magical language. It´s simply that the Quran is written in verse. Plenty of the words are picked for their poetry, rather than judicial correctness. The Quran is a hell of a lot vaguer than... well.. all other holy texts... I think. Ie more open to interpretation.

On the second paragraph, there's the Italian saying "traduttore, traditore": "translator, traitor". Any translation, even the technical ones I earn my living from, will be an interpretation of the original text. For example, the latest Swedish interpretation doesn't have "The Qur'an" or similar as its title, but "Koranens budskap" (The message of the Qur'an). So, DLH, to a Muslim, you worked on three interpretations of the book. Are they new, or are they old ones that have expired copyrights (Sale published in 1734, died 1736; Pickthall 1930, 1936 etc.) and where do I find them?

My Pickthall copy isn't named The Meaning of the Glorious Koran, but HOLY QURAN / EngliSh Translation / ... Yes, a capital S in EngliSh. Printed in Karachi, no year; possibly pirated offset copy. My wild guess is that the 'S' somehow came from a transcription misunderstanding. But neither Arabic nor Urdu uses a Sh letter in 'English'. Hindi does! No Hindi Wiki page on Pickthall, no bibliography on the (short) Urdu one. Any idea out there?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Almost after every sura about killing, stoning or surely put to death there´s a sura taking it all back and saying it´s better to forgive. I actually counted them back in the day and compared with the Bible. In spite of being much shorter the Quran has more lines about the importance of forgiveness than the Bible.

There is that thing about the Quran needing to be read in the original language. It´s not so much that Arabic is a magical language. It´s simply that the Quran is written in verse. Plenty of the words are picked for their poetry, rather than judicial correctness. The Quran is a hell of a lot vaguer than... well.. all other holy texts... I think. Ie more open to interpretation.

On the second paragraph, there's the Italian saying "traduttore, traditore": "translator, traitor". Any translation, even the technical ones I earn my living from, will be an interpretation of the original text. For example, the latest Swedish interpretation doesn't have "The Qur'an" or similar as its title, but "Koranens budskap" (The message of the Qur'an). So, DLH, to a Muslim, you worked on three interpretations of the book. Are they new, or are they old ones that have expired copyrights (Sale published in 1734, died 1736; Pickthall 1930, 1936 etc.) and where do I find them?

My Pickthall copy isn't named The Meaning of the Glorious Koran, but HOLY QURAN / EngliSh Translation / ... Yes, a capital S in EngliSh. Printed in Karachi, no year; possibly pirated offset copy. My wild guess is that the 'S' somehow came from a transcription misunderstanding. But neither Arabic nor Urdu uses a Sh letter in 'English'. Hindi does! No Hindi Wiki page on Pickthall, no bibliography on the (short) Urdu one. Any idea out there?

I've read three different Quran translations, from different Islamic schools. They were wildly different. Pickthall was one of them. I forget the other. I even found resources on-line with parallel English translations next to each other. I'd say that it's pretty much impossible to misinterpret that Quran. Whatever floats your boat you'll find a sura encouraging it.

 

[Lugubert]

I've read three different Quran translations, from different Islamic schools. They were wildly different. Pickthall was one of them. I forget the other. I even found resources on-line with parallel English translations next to each other. I'd say that it's pretty much impossible to misinterpret that Quran. Whatever floats your boat you'll find a sura encouraging it.

Your parallel version might have been by Yusuf Ali. Last time I checked, it was one of the most used English versions. The paper version also has lots of useful comments. One way that makes it impossible not to misinterpret the book is that some words have fallen out of use, and nobody can be certain of what they originally meant. Case in point the supposed waiting heavenly virgins, and all the ways it's explained that whatever is waiting isn't for sexual pleasure (including that this would be rather strange if they're supposed to be virgins for ever).

 

[skepticalbip]

.................. Case in point the supposed waiting heavenly virgins, and all the ways it's explained that whatever is waiting isn't for sexual pleasure (including that this would be rather strange if they're supposed to be virgins for ever).

That would be a valid point except we are talking about religion not rationality... gods can do anything, that's why they are gods.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I've read three different Quran translations, from different Islamic schools. They were wildly different. Pickthall was one of them. I forget the other. I even found resources on-line with parallel English translations next to each other. I'd say that it's pretty much impossible to misinterpret that Quran. Whatever floats your boat you'll find a sura encouraging it.

Your parallel version might have been by Yusuf Ali. Last time I checked, it was one of the most used English versions. The paper version also has lots of useful comments. One way that makes it impossible not to misinterpret the book is that some words have fallen out of use, and nobody can be certain of what they originally meant. Case in point the supposed waiting heavenly virgins, and all the ways it's explained that whatever is waiting isn't for sexual pleasure (including that this would be rather strange if they're supposed to be virgins for ever).

Especially after they've been fucked by the deceased faithful. If they stay virgins, then that's a clue on how fun you get to have with them.

But only the most retarded think that "houri" translates to 72 virgins. That's only a valid translation if you bend backwards like a mofo.

Ancient religious texts freely mix the real with the imaginary/metaphorical. There's no clues which is which. Only from the context can you work it out. Both the Quran and Bible are a beacon of clarity compared to ancient Greek or Babylonian texts. So interpreting the 72 virgins literally is misunderstanding a metaphor on purpose.

 

[fta]

The most amusing theory is that the word "virgins" is actually a mistranslation of "raisins"...

 

[Will Wiley]

I've read completely, in fact, published online and proofread three different versions of the Quran and I'm just completely unimpressed. It seems nothing more than a semi-illiterate attempt to endorse religion that is a sort of alternate culture and to mix that with a poor understanding of the Bible. Though they did get it right with the rejection of the Platonic Trinity. It just repeats itself endlessly in an extremely xenophobic self promotion.

Not much to say about the Quran, from my point of view.

I'd far prefer to follow the bible. In fact just yesterday I had to stone my neighbor for gathering some firewood on the Sabbath.
It was hard but I'm sure god was pleased

 

[Kharakov]

The most amusing theory is that the word "virgins" is actually a mistranslation of "raisins"...

Ha. Freudian slip... I read 'mistranslation of "trans"...'

 

[Trodon]

I have read the Bible including the Apocrypha eight times in seven English translations. I read it twice in the King James version. I am currently reading The Jerusalem Bible.

I have read the Koran in three English translations: one translation was by J.M. Rodwell, one translation was by Marmaduke Pickthall; one translation is in the Harvard Classics by E. H. Palmer.

I study and respect each of the world's great religions. I have less respect for the Koran than I do for the Bible, or the scriptures of Buddhism.

Islam is a religion that bases its authority on the word of honor of one man. Mohammed came before the Arab people with the Koran, and said, "This was dictated to me by the Angel Gabriel. Trust me. It was."

Christianity bases its authority on the Bible. The Bible was written during a period of about thirteen centuries by many men, and perhaps a few women. This does not mean that every word in the Bible is true. It does mean that if the Bible is a hoax, you have to imagine a conspiracy lasting that long.

Mohammed claimed that he would go into a trance. The Angel Gabriel would dictate a portion of the Koran to him. When he came out of the trance he would dictate what the Angel Gabriel told him to a literate scribe. Mohammed himself never learned to read and write.

What Mohammed claimed about the composition of the Koran is psychologically plausible, even if one believes, as I do, that the Angel Gabriel did not dictate the Koran to Mohammed. At the same time one does not need to believe that Mohammed was a religious charlatan, as I do believe Joseph Smith was.

The creative process is somewhat mysterious. Ideas come to one like documents emerging in a fax machine. Mohammed may have believed that his ideas really did come from the Angel Gabriel. I believe his ideas came from his mind.

In the Koran Mohammed reveals the knowledge of the Bible I would expect to find in an adult who has never read the Bible, but who remembers Bible stories from Sunday School as a child. Although Mohammed claimed to be God's greatest prophet, there is no mention in the Koran of any of the writing prophets, like Isiah and Jeremiah. This is because the theology of the writing prophets cannot be explained in anecdotes that are understandable to children.

Nowhere in the New Testament does Jesus, or anyone else, command violence to spread the faith. Mohammed specifically commands violence.

Where violence is commanded in the Old Testament, the commands are restricted to the conquest and defense of the reasonably small Holy Lands.

 

[Trodon]

I'd far prefer to follow the bible. In fact just yesterday I had to stone my neighbor for gathering some firewood on the Sabbath.
It was hard but I'm sure god was pleased

There is much wisdom in the Torah, even if one does not believe in God. Strictures against being "unclean" reveal a precocious understanding of infectious diseases. Judaism is a hygienic religion. This has encouraged most manufacturers of detergents to get kosher certification for their detergents. If you look for a U with a circle around it, you will find it on most detergents.

The U with the circle around it is the symbol of the Orthodox Union.

https://www.ou.org/

Israelite peasants exerted themselves on their farms as much as athletes. Boxing trainers tell their charges, "Don't leave your fight in the gym." Boxers are told to take off at least one day every week, and perhaps two days before a boxing match.

It made sense for the Torah to tell the Israelites to take a day of rest every week. Making not doing so a capital offense was overdoing it. No where else in the Bible is there mention that Jews actually were executed for working on the Sabbath.

 

[braces_for_impact]

I don't consider Leviticus 14:2-52 hygienic. I think you're reading what you want into the Torah.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I don't consider Leviticus 14:2-52 hygienic. I think you're reading what you want into the Torah.

I don't know. He takes a bath and waits a week. That gives a lot of time for skin infections to clear up. Seeing as how the Torah was written in the pre-Netflix era, giving the person some make-work projects like killing some animals and paying a priest to do shit stops him from wandering off to roll around in poison ivy or something during that time. The society needed to make due with what it had available.

 

[Bronzeage]

How do you know what you read was the Quran?

Well . . . it did have something written on the front of it which had been scratched out and Quran had been written on it in crayon, but when I tried to set it on fire some maniac came at me with a knife and I knew it was the Quran.

I wonder about you, none.

It's a fair question. How long did you study Arabic before you took on the Quran?

 

[fta]

There is much wisdom in the Torah, even if one does not believe in God. Strictures against being "unclean" reveal a precocious understanding of infectious diseases. Judaism is a hygienic religion.

Yup, God's instructions here sound pretty hygienic:

“Take the other ram, and Aaron and his sons shall lay their hands on its head. Slaughter it, take some of its blood and put it on the lobes of the right ears of Aaron and his sons, on the thumbs of their right hands, and on the big toes of their right feet. Then splash blood against the sides of the altar. And take some blood from the altar and some of the anointing oil and sprinkle it on Aaron and his garments and on his sons and their garments. (Exodus 29:20-21)

To purify the house he is to take two birds and some cedar wood, scarlet yarn and hyssop. He shall kill one of the birds over fresh water in a clay pot. Then he is to take the cedar wood, the hyssop, the scarlet yarn and the live bird, dip them into the blood of the dead bird and the fresh water, and sprinkle the house seven times. He shall purify the house with the bird’s blood, the fresh water, the live bird, the cedar wood, the hyssop and the scarlet yarn. (Leviticus 14:49-52)

It made sense for the Torah to tell the Israelites to take a day of rest every week. Making not doing so a capital offense was overdoing it. No where else in the Bible is there mention that Jews actually were executed for working on the Sabbath.

So God was "overdoing it" when he ordered the Israelites to stone the wood-gatherer to death?

Now while the sons of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering wood on the sabbath day. Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation; and they put him in custody because it had not been declared what should be done to him. Then the LORD said to Moses, “The man shall surely be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp.” So all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death with stones, just as the LORD had commanded Moses. (Numbers 15:32-36http://biblehub.com/context/numbers/15-32.htm)

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Wait, so when did they bring him to Moses and Aaron? Doing that kind of thing sounds like work. When did Moses make his declaration and when did the stoning occur?

If that shit happened on the sabbath, then the entire tribe needed to stone itself to death for blasphemy.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Wait, so when did they bring him to Moses and Aaron? Doing that kind of thing sounds like work. When did Moses make his declaration and when did the stoning occur?

If that shit happened on the sabbath, then the entire tribe needed to stone itself to death for blasphemy.

"...and that's why Jews never manage to fucking rule anything"

 

[braces_for_impact]

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_hlMK7tCks[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Atheos]

Where violence is commanded in the Old Testament, the commands are restricted to the conquest and defense of the reasonably small Holy Lands.

Exodus 22:18 - Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

Exodus 32:27 - And [Moses] said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

This was because many of them worshiped a golden calf. Had nothing to do with conquering or defending the holy lands.

Leviticus 20:13 - Homosexual men are to be put to death.

Numbers 31

:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Obviously these women and boys needed killing to defend the holy land. And these little girls needed to be turned into sex slaves for the same reason.

Numbers 25:4 And the LORD said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the people, and hang them up before the LORD against the sun, that the fierce anger of the LORD may be turned away from Israel.

Bunch of Israelites are beheaded for purely religious reasons.

Numbers 25

:7 And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand;
:8 And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.

Phinehas skewers an interracial couple because they're ... interracial. God is pleased.

Deuteronomy 19: Death penalty for false witnesses.

Deuteronomy 21: Death penalty for being a stubborn and rebellious son.

Deuteronomy 22:

• Death penalty for adultery.
• Death penalty for women who can't produce bloody bedsheets as tokens of their virginity from their wedding night.
• For being raped and not screaming loud enough for someone to hear? You guessed it ... death.

Deuteronomy 25: Two men are fighting and the wife of one of them intervenes. Her hand touches the man who is not her husband in his happy place. Amputate her hand. WTF.

1 Sam 15: God "remembers" how Amalek (hundreds of years earlier) hindered Israel. Time for some revenge. God orders king Saul to take his armies and destroy the Amalekites, with whom they currently have no actual quarrel for things done hundreds of years ago by their ancestors.

Well this could go on for a long time but it's just beating the dead horse. It never ceases to amaze me how easy it is for apologists to ignore what the bible actually says.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Obviously these women and boys needed killing to defend the holy land. And these little girls needed to be turned into sex slaves for the same reason.

I can imagine the brainstorming meeting that came up with that one.

"I'm pretty sure God said that the women and boys needed killing"

"Are you sure. Sounds a bit excessive".

"And also that we can keep the little girls as sex slaves"

"Oh, my. It's settled then."

 

[Guyt]

Well . . . it did have something written on the front of it which had been scratched out and Quran had been written on it in crayon, but when I tried to set it on fire some maniac came at me with a knife and I knew it was the Quran.

I wonder about you, none.

It's a fair question. How long did you study Arabic before you took on the Quran?

Should you have to, though? Should you study Greek and Aramaic before you take on the Bible?