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The Race For 2024

Oh, noes!!!! We're just like Iran!!!
How do you figure? Cenk is clearly and unequivocally ineligible.
Things are far more murky for Trump's eligibility. Or do you want to have a situation where random SecStates declare other party's presidential candidates ineligible because they get to define "insurrection" as they see fit?

That pesky 14th amendment...
Not the 14th Amendment, but Article II Section 1 of the OG Constitution. Shows how much you know about Civics. You probably think they're just cars made by Honda. :0
 
According the comments of Constitutional scholars whom I have heard interviewed there is not a serious question about that.
I have heard otherwise - that the issue is murky.

in the absence of a federal law it would seem that state law would hold and that was followed quite well in Maine for example.
That's not what 14th Amendment actually says.

I think everyone agrees on that. Hard to believe they wouldn’t take this on.
Yupp.
 
  [HEADING=2]2024 presidential eligibility of Donald Trump[/HEADING]

In September 2022, the CRS issued a report on Section 3 that cites an opinion article co-authored by South Texas College of Law Houston professor Josh Blackman and Maynooth University law professor Seth Barrett Tillman (which in turn summarized a law review article Blackman and Tillman co-authored) in noting that the Presidency is not explicitly included in the text of Section 3, and as such, could possibly be exempt from the section's terms.[57][58] Blackman and Tillman note that since Trump never took an oath of office as a member of Congress, nor as a state legislator, nor as a state executive or judicial officer, and has only taken the presidential oath of office, that Trump can only be disqualified under Section 3 if the President is an "officer of the United States".[59]

Citing the Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States written by Supreme Court Associate Justice Joseph Story,[60] Blackman and Tillman argue that the President is not an officer of the United States when considering usage in Article I, Article II, and Article VI of the phrases "officer of the United States" and "office under the United States" which they contend refer to distinct classes of positions within the federal government.[61][a] Blackman and Tillman further argue that the former phrase excludes all legislative branch officers of the federal government, that the elected officials of the federal government are not included among the "officers of the United States" under Mississippi v. Johnson (1867),[65] United States v. Hartwell (1867),[66] United States v. Mouat (1888),[67] and Free Enterprise Fund v. Public Company Accounting Oversight Board (2010),[68] and that there was no drift in the meaning of "officer of the United States" between the ratification of the federal constitution in 1788 and the Mouat decision twenty years after the ratification of the 14th Amendment in 1868.[69] Based upon their law review article, Blackman and Tillman also co-authored a law review article in response to Baude and Paulsen.[70]

Conversely, citing a law review article written by Indiana University School of Law professor Gerard Magliocca,[71] the CRS report also notes an exchange in congressional debate between Maryland Senator Reverdy Johnson and Maine Senator Lot M. Morrill during the drafting process of Section 3 in concluding that it could be more likely that the President is an officer of the United States subject to disqualification under the section:

[Mr. JOHNSON.] ... I do not see but that any one of these gentlemen may be elected President or Vice President of the United States, and why did you omit to exclude them? I do not understand them to be excluded from the privilege of holding the two highest offices in the gift of the nation. ...
Mr. MORRILL. Let me call the Senator's attention to the words "or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States."
Mr. JOHNSON. Perhaps I am wrong as to the exclusion from the Presidency; no doubt I am; but I was misled by noticing the specific exclusion in the case of Senators and Representatives. ...
— Congressional Globe Senate, 39th Congress, 1st Session, May 30, 1866. p. 2899.[72][57][73]
Baude and Paulsen likewise cite the exchange between Senators Johnson and Morrill in disputing Blackman and Tillman's argument, and argue further that Blackman and Tillman's argument "implausibly splits linguistic hairs".[74] In May 2023, the British Journal of American Legal Studies accepted a law review article written by John Vlahoplus that argues that in the context of Section 3 the President is an officer of the United States and the Presidency is an office under the United States, cites the 1862 statute formulating the Ironclad Oath, which said "every person elected or appointed to any office of honor or profit under the government of the United States, either in the civil, military, or naval departments of the public service, excepting the President of the United States",[75] and argues that this acknowledged the Presidency as an "office ... under the government of the United States".[76]

Blackman and Tillman cite the fact that the Committee of Style at the 1787 Constitutional Convention shortened the use of "Officer of the United States" in the Presidential Succession Clause of Article II, Section I to "Officer" and changed "[The President, the Vice President] and other civil Officers of the United States"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_presidential_eligibility_of_Donald_Trump#cite_note-78 [emphasis added] to "The President, Vice President and all civil Officers of the United States" [emphasis added] in the Impeachment Clause of Article II, Section IV as evidence that the phrases "officer of the United States" and "office under the United States" were not used indiscriminately by the Framers.[77][78][79] Despite the fact that the Presidential Electors Clause of Article II, Section I requires that "no ... Person holding an Office ... under the United States, shall be appointed an Elector",[80] that the No Religious Test Clause of Article VI requires that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office ... under the United States",[81][82][c] and that the Impeachment Disqualification Clause of Article I, Section III states that conviction in a federal impeachment trial extends to "disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office ... under the United States",[54][84] Blackman and Tillman argue that elected officials do not hold "offices under the United States" under the Constitution's first seven articles and take no position on whether the Presidency and Vice Presidency are "office under the United States" in Section 3.[85][86] Blackman and Tillman also claim that the Clerk of the House of Representatives and the Secretary of the Senate do not take an oath of office pursuant to the Oath or Affirmation Clause of Article VI.[87]

University of Maryland School of Law professor Mark A. Graber has noted that a congressional report presented to the 39th United States Congress concluded that "a little consideration of this matter will show that 'officers of' and 'officers under' the United States are ... 'indiscriminately used in the Constitution.'"[88][89] In delegating to Congress the power to pass legislation providing for the case of a dual vacancy in the Presidency and Vice Presidency, the Presidential Succession Clause states that Congress shall "declar[e] what Officer shall ... act as President, and such Officer shall act accordingly".[90] Pursuant to the Presidential Succession Clause, the 2nd United States Congress passed the Presidential Succession Act of 1792 that included the Speaker of the House of Representatives and President pro tempore of the Senate in the presidential line of succession.[91][92] The CRS and the Continuity of Government Commission have noted that the use of "Officer" in the clause caused debate in Congress at the time over whether including legislative branch officers in the presidential line of succession was constitutional, with opponents of the bill (who included James Madison) arguing that the use of "Officer" in the clause referred to "Officer of the United States" and that officers of the United States were limited to executive branch officers.[91][92]
 
According the comments of Constitutional scholars whom I have heard interviewed there is not a serious question about that.
I have heard otherwise - that the issue is murky.

Interesting. Which scholars have said that the 14th wouldn’t apply to the President?

Edited to add: I wrote this before seeing ZiprHead’s post. He seems to cover much of this including what I have heard.

in the absence of a federal law it would seem that state law would hold and that was followed quite well in Maine for example.
That's not what 14th Amendment actually says.

You pointed out the it said the Congress can make laws to enforce the provisions but have they? If there is no federal standard for deciding if someone is eligible why should the states not use their own standard?

I think everyone agrees on that. Hard to believe they wouldn’t take this on.
Yupp.
 
There is a question of 14.3's applicability to the presidency and vice-presidency. Note that their electors are mentioned, but they themselves are not.
Note that those are not elected positions in the USA.
What's going on here, essentially, is private entities trying to force state governments to accept their candidates. That's the overreach going on here. If Colorado decides that no Colorado EC delegates will be sent to vote for Trump, that's a state decision. Colorado's state law doesn't affect voters in any other state, it is entirely a state decision.
As per the Constitution.

If the SCOTUS decides to overrule the Constitution in favor of a private entity like the Republican Party, we'll all know why. Even if some of us won't admit it.
Tom
 
If there is no federal standard for deciding if someone is eligible why should the states not use their own standard?
Of course Derec is parroting right wing talking points, as is his habit.
Section 14-A is way less obscure than the posts about it. It straight up says that if you swear an oath to uphold the Constitution (Trump did) and you participate in ANY way in an insurrection (Trump did, as numerous courts have already agreed)
YOU ARE FUCKING INELIGIBLE FOR OFFICE.
Imnotatrumpsuckers will never give it a straightforward read. And that includes Clarence Fucking Thomas, Alito and the other grifters on the Court
 
Of course Derec is parroting right wing talking points, as is his habit.
Wrong, as usual. Saying the issue is murky constitutionally is not "parroting right wing talking points". Also, whatever the decision is will apply as precedent to Biden or any future Democratic presidents.
Strike 1.
Section 14-A
The sections are numbered, not lettered. Do you perchance mean Section 3?
Strike 2.
is way less obscure than the posts about it.
Where did you get your law degree anyway? I don't have one, but disagreements between legal scholars and experts indicate that the issue is far from being clear-cut.
Imnotatrumpsuckers will never give it a straightforward read.
Sophomoric insults are all you have.
Strike 3.
odo-ds9.gif

You are welcome to look up the Constitution (14-A, I mean really?) and the divergent opinions on 14.3 and Trump, but do it in the stands.
And that includes Clarence Fucking Thomas, Alito and the other grifters on the Court
You mean actual SCOTUS justices who will have to decide on this issue?
 
If Colorado decides that no Colorado EC delegates will be sent to vote for Trump, that's a state decision.
So you are saying that Georgia (through its independent state legislature maybe?) could have decided not to send Biden electors to DC after the 2020 elections even though Biden had won the popular vote in the state?
Or is your view of state supremacy that limited that you do not foresee the likely consequences of what you are saying?
 
Judge (now Justice) Gorsuch himself said: "a state's legitimate interest in protecting the integrity and practical functioning of the political process permits it to exclude from the ballot candidates who are constitutionally prohibited from assuming office."

Maine's Secretary of State directly quotes this as support of her decision. She also points out that Maine law obligates her to determine the qualifications of petitioning candidates.

Elections are not done Federally, they are handled by the States.

Derec's comment that neither state courts nor secretaries of states have the power to enforce the Constitutional qualification provisions appears to be wrong. It is reasonably clear from the laws and historical precedents that States govern these.

Go read the Maine's Sec of State decision and come back with what specific aspects of her argument you disagree with. Here's the link:


She addresses Derec's point directly:

I recognize that Section Five of the Fourteenth Amendment provides that "[t]he Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article." ... But that does not mean that action pursuant to Section Five is a prerequisite to the substantive provisions of the Fourteenth Amendment having any legal force.

It's a good read; I recommend all to read it.
 
If Colorado decides that no Colorado EC delegates will be sent to vote for Trump, that's a state decision.
So you are saying that Georgia (through its independent state legislature maybe?) could have decided not to send Biden electors to DC after the 2020 elections even though Biden had won the popular vote in the state?
Or is your view of state supremacy that limited that you do not foresee the likely consequences of what you are saying?

I'm saying that Georgia could have changed their standards for EC delegates prior to the election, but they didn't.

Here's something else I say a lot.
Make POTUS an elected position! Do you agree with that, or are you opposed? Trump has never won a popular election. He stole the White House from the U.S. people's choice Hillary Clinton by way of EC. He failed to steal the election from Biden by way of the EC and he's been squealing "Election Fraud" ever since. No, evidence ever. But he does. And he instigated a violent attack on the Electoral College and his own Vice-President when he couldn't steal the election.

Forcing states to return him to a ballot against their will, despite what it says in the Constitution, is little different from yet another Insurrection by SCOTUS!
Tom
 
Judge (now Justice) Gorsuch himself said: "a state's legitimate interest in protecting the integrity and practical functioning of the political process permits it to exclude from the ballot candidates who are constitutionally prohibited from assuming office."

Maine's Secretary of State directly quotes this as support of her decision. She also points out that Maine law obligates her to determine the qualifications of petitioning candidates.

Elections are not done Federally, they are handled by the States.

Derec's comment that neither state courts nor secretaries of states have the power to enforce the Constitutional qualification provisions appears to be wrong. It is reasonably clear from the laws and historical precedents that States govern these.

Go read the Maine's Sec of State decision and come back with what specific aspects of her argument you disagree with. Here's the link:


She addresses Derec's point directly:

I recognize that Section Five of the Fourteenth Amendment provides that "[t]he Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article." ... But that does not mean that action pursuant to Section Five is a prerequisite to the substantive provisions of the Fourteenth Amendment having any legal force.

It's a good read; I recommend all to read it.

Until such time as 2/3 of Congress says otherwise (removes the disability), state law dictates eligibility. Different states do this at different points during the process and also for different offices: state or federal. This is why some have given a thumbs up and some a thumbs down at this point in time.
Precedent also determined that the test for being an "officer" is whether the oath is to "defend the constitution". The link I provided in the Colorado thread goes into all of this. If I haven't mentioned previously, in it I also find that "aid and comfort" is defined as little as words of encouragement.
In the case of McKee v. Young, also before the Fortieth Congress, it was said that “aid and comfort may be given to an enemy by words of encouragement, or the expression of an opinion, from one occupying an influential position.”
In that case I believe it was an article in a newspaper reaching 14,000. Social media sputum aside, Trump's words of encouragement reached a targeted audience at a critical time.
 
Derec's comment that neither state courts nor secretaries of states have the power to enforce the Constitutional qualification provisions appears to be wrong.
Ms Bellows doesn't appear to have a law degree, and I doubt Derec has one either (open to correction on that). As former executive director of the Maine ACLU (which I suspect is not Derec's favorite outfit) I think Ms Bellows has considerable legal experience, but most of it would have been in civil rights law. However the laws she cites would appear to leave Derec in a lurch. Particularly Storer Vs Brown in 1974, where it was found that the Codes that States had adopted to define eligibility requirements were legally enforceable. But she's just a girl, right?

It's a good read; I recommend all to read it.

Reading through it now. So far the main takeaway is that there's an awful damn lot of ketchup on courtroom walls that needs to be cleaned up. He's been throwing so much stuff at the wall his arms must be about to fall off.
 


I referenced this in the wiki I posted earlier but it's easier to understand it here.
 


I referenced this in the wiki I posted earlier but it's easier to understand it here.


The argument seems to be that the six partisan Republican justices on the Supreme Court will fear being seen as hypocritical and inconsistent if they ignore the originalist argument that they had explicitly claimed as a basis for other decisions. I have a feeling that they will find ways to overcome their fear and embarrassment. After all, Amy Coney Barrett should be able to remember when hypocritical behavior like that rocketed her into her lifetime appointment as a Supreme Court justice rather than having Joe Biden appoint a justice to fill that vacant slot on the Court. It's not like hypocrisy is a bad thing.
 
Judge (now Justice) Gorsuch himself said: "a state's legitimate interest in protecting the integrity and practical functioning of the political process permits it to exclude from the ballot candidates who are constitutionally prohibited from assuming office."
What case was that? What were the facts of the case? Details matter.
It is one thing to exclude a clearly unqualified candidate - a 25 year old, say, or a naturalized citizen like Cenk the Middle Aged Turk.
It is quite different matter when states take it upon themselves to, in effect, interpret COTUS as they see fit without prior precedent set by SCOTUS.
And let's say a secretary of state makes the wrong decision and excludes somebody who is 36 years old, either through malice or incompetence. Should federal government, including SCOTUS, be powerless in reversing such decisions because "it is the states who run elections"?

Maine's Secretary of State directly quotes this as support of her decision. She also points out that Maine law obligates her to determine the qualifications of petitioning candidates.
What she quotes is not necessarily the reason she really made the decision. This is an issue of the interpretation of the COTUS, which is several paygrades above Maine SecState's.
Elections are not done Federally, they are handled by the States.
Sure. But federal government is very much involved, and it can override the states. There is the federal Voting Rights Act. SCOTUS decides on things like electoral maps. So why should not SCOTUS decide who is eligible under the 14th Amendment of the US Constitution? If matters of interpretation of the US Constitution are not their bailiwick, what would be?
Derec's comment that neither state courts nor secretaries of states have the power to enforce the Constitutional qualification provisions appears to be wrong. It is reasonably clear from the laws and historical precedents that States govern these.
14th Amendment explicitly states that the power of enforcement is given to the US Congress.
Maine SecState said:
I recognize that Section Five of the Fourteenth Amendment provides that "[t]he Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article." ... But that does not mean that action pursuant to Section Five is a prerequisite to the substantive provisions of the Fourteenth Amendment having any legal force.
Why not?
It's a good read; I recommend all to read it.
Why bother, when the almost certainly upcoming SCOTUS decision is the one that really matters.
 
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I'm saying that Georgia could have changed their standards for EC delegates prior to the election, but they didn't.
This is what you wrote: "If Colorado decides that no Colorado EC delegates will be sent to vote for Trump, that's a state decision.".
I do not think it would be legitimate for Georgia to decide to not send any Biden electors to DC, even if they decide that before the 2024 election. Do you disagree? Do you think states can do whatever they want? Do you support the "independent state legislature" theory?
Here's something else I say a lot.
Make POTUS an elected position!
POTUS is an elected position. It's just that the election mechanism is somewhat convoluted.
It is certainly a much more directly elected position than the Chancellor of Germany or Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.
Do you agree with that, or are you opposed?
If you mean, do I think POTUS should be elected by popular vote? I agree, provided mere plurality is not enough and there is a runoff, either traditional or instant, should no candidate achieve majority. And what the hell, throw in proportional election of the House into the mix as well!
But note that neither or these things will happen without a constitutional amendment, so it is really moot.
Trump has never won a popular election.
So? He played the game according to the rules of the game. Running up the score in the first game of the world series, but losing 3-4 is still a loss even if you have a greater number of total runs. Same thing here. Running up the score in California is useless, and if you ignore the close states in the Midwest, you lose the election.
You can't play the World Series and pretend you are driving in the Formula 1 where total number of points determines the World Champion.
You cannot assume Trump would have had fewer votes than Hillary had the election in 2016 been run with popular vote rules. Campaigns would have been conducted very differently since the concept of "battleground states" would be meaningless. Money would have been spent differently, candidate and surrogate schedules would be different too.
Moreover, far more people would also have voted for a minor candidate to express their real preference, and settled for one of the two major ones in the runoff.
In other words, popular vote is a meaningless metric when the election is conducted under different rules.
He stole the White House from the U.S. people's choice Hillary Clinton by way of EC.
No, he didn't. He played by the rules. So did Hillary. Had she won the EC, but Trump had had more total votes Hillary would have been the winner fair and square. No matter how much Trump and the MAGAs would have whined. Rules are rules. You can't accuse somebody of "cheating" or "stealing" a victory by playing by the rules. That's being a sore loser.
He failed to steal the election from Biden by way of the EC and he's been squealing "Election Fraud" ever since. No, evidence ever. But he does. And he instigated a violent attack on the Electoral College and his own Vice-President when he couldn't steal the election.
That's the allegation, isn't it? It hasn't been adjudicated yet.
I prefer Trump loses at the ballot box, preferably in the primaries. Being excluded through legal maneuvering will forever brand him a martyr, rather than somebody who lost.
Forcing states to return him to a ballot against their will, despite what it says in the Constitution, is little different from yet another Insurrection by SCOTUS!
Oh, please! SCOTUS has the authority to interpret the COTUS, including 14.3. Period.
 
Until such time as 2/3 of Congress says otherwise (removes the disability), state law dictates eligibility.
Does it? That's not what the 14th Amendment says. It never says anything about state law dictating anything. Much less state courts or secretaries of state trying to interpret the US constitution.
In the case of McKee v. Young, also before the Fortieth Congress, it was said that “aid and comfort may be given to an enemy by words of encouragement, or the expression of an opinion, from one occupying an influential position.”
Except that the Confederacy was clearly the "enemy" of the United States.
Dingbats who stole a lectern and put their feet up are a different kettle of fish altogether.
 
Ms Bellows doesn't appear to have a law degree,
No, she certainly does not.
and I doubt Derec has one either (open to correction on that).
I don't. Do you?
Btw, I am still curious about Section A of the 14th Amendment. What does it say?
As former executive director of the Maine ACLU (which I suspect is not Derec's favorite outfit)
ACLU used to be really about civil rights of everybody. Nowadays they are just another lefty pressure group. I suspect leaders like Bellows contributed to this decline.

Particularly Storer Vs Brown in 1974, where it was found that the Codes that States had adopted to define eligibility requirements were legally enforceable. But she's just a girl, right?
Being a girl has nothing to do with it. Being a partisan hack does.
SvB has nothing to do with eligibility under the 14th Amendment, as far as I can tell. But again, I am not a lawyer, nor is Bellows and neither are you (I think). SCOTUS will decide. Everything we write is speculation.

Reading through it now. So far the main takeaway is that there's an awful damn lot of ketchup on courtroom walls that needs to be cleaned up.
Well, you should not be filling your bellows with ketchup before squeezing the handles. Of course that can get messy!
 
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