The Race For 2024

[Toni]

I do not blame religion. I blame people.

Well… it’s fairly inarguable that religions regularly serve as vehicles of all kinds of evils. It’s true that religions don’t generally DO the heinous things they enable, but they are focii of agreement, and such agreement is foundational to mob behavior.

To me, it comes down to the axiom - if it can convince you of the impossible, it can cause you to do the unthinkable. Or something like that.

Religion of course does serve as a vehicle of all kinds of evil but the evil comes from the people, not from religion itself. It’s the confusion of faith in a deity with unquestioning obedience to earthly ‘authority/authorities.’

At its best, religion is a moral code, the basic tenets of which most of us can agree are good guiding principles. Most are pretty universal. But power and greed corrupt everything and everyone.

 

[Elixir]

At its best, religion is a moral code, the basic tenets of which most of us can agree are good guiding principles. Most are pretty universal. But power and greed corrupt everything and everyone.

Yes, and what a shame it is that all those platitudes about the best of intentions, seem to apply with such uniform accuracy.
I'm sure all the people I know are fine and good. And all the people you know, and the ones they know, are all find and good. But put us all together and we seem to turn right into one big collective asshole. Oh well - at least I don't have to interact with "us all together" very much.
I love you all! But individually.

 

[Emily Lake]

Though they did far more so in the very recent past.

How do you define "recent"?

Certainly not because they turned into nice people, or because they stopped believing that their book gives men doninion over women (it's the SAME book, remember?).

It's not the same book though. There are portions that are very similar, sure. But they aren't actually the same book. The Torah is similar to but not identical to the Old Testament Bible. Parts of the Quran are similar to the Torah and OT Bible, but again not identical. The NT Bible is not at all similar to any part of the Quran, and a substantial portion of the Quran are entirely different than anything in either the Torah or Bible.

Mohammed isn't really a material part of either the Torah or the Bible, Jesus isn't really a material part of the Quran or the Torah.

Similar <> Same

 

[Emily Lake]

Do you think the impact to men is the same as to women in islamic-dominant societies?

Do you think it isn't in Christian Dominionist societies? They both literally take their rules from the same book.

The only difference is that the Christian assholes have a real prospect of power in the US, and the Muslim ones don't.

And yet... if you look around the world, it seems as though christian sects aren't actively keeping women as property. Huh, why would that be, do you think?

Because they lost in the 1960s and 1970s, women's rights were expanded (though the equal rights amendment never passed... because gosh... I fucking wonder why). These people didn't let this happen, they were dragged into the present. And now they want to drag America back. But hey... it won't be Somalia. That'll be an optimistic spin when women need a man's help to get a loan again.

Look, I'm aware that 60 years ago women in the west didn't have as much freedom as we have now. There was a lot of discrimination and some limits. I don't want that.

On the other hand, you're acting like that was identical to how women in Afghanistan, Iran, etc. are treated RIGHT NOW TODAY.

The fact that you don't see the difference in impact to women between 1960s american and 2026 Afghanistan is a testament to your male myopia.

 

[Emily Lake]

Attacking someone because you don’t think they are sufficiently respectful is not making the changes in behavior that you are hoping for.

You know the old definition that describes doing the same thing over and over and expecting different t results? I think we are there now.

Lol, I'm actively NOT doing the same thing I've been doing over and over. I've CHANGED the thing that didn't work, and objectively and observably did NOT result in the behavior I was hoping for.

 

[Emily Lake]

Are you sure about that? While I understand that many Christians reject the idea of Mormons being Christian at all, and mainstream Mormons reject FDLS, FDLS consider themselves Christian and they pretty much consider women as property.

Oh, and Project 2025 and its successive missives ….

This is dinsingenuous. I have a hard time believing that you're not aware that it's disingenuous.

That or you've completely closed your eyes and ears to the reality that women in Afghanistan and Iran and similar fundamentalist muslim countries. Pretending these are the even close to the same things is like insisting that foxes are wolves because they're both in the Canidae family.

 

[Emily Lake]

More seriously - why do you feel it necessary to defend a religion that is actively, currently, in modern times doing such horrible things?

WHY DO YOU BEAT YOUR CHILDREN EMILY!!!

Just an aside - RELIGIONS don’t do horrible things. Religious PEOPLE do horrible things. The fact that so many religious people do horrible things is a reflection upon religions, and if you are religious, you are taking part in those horrors even if you are brainwashed into thinking it’s only the Others who hold Other religious beliefs who commit atrocities.

I forget who pointed out that anyone who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities, but that is the truth at the core of religious conflict.
Religions are UNIFORMLY founded on absurdities, for that very reason.

Great. So how about you explain why a number of posters here seem to think that christianity as practiced in the 21st century is somehow worse and more dangerous than islam as practiced in the 21st century.

 

[Emily Lake]

People do horrible things. With or without religion

Oh totally. And the reasons they do horrible things are just a complete mystery, and has nothing at all to do with what they believe. There's absolutely no correlation at all between belief systems that promote and inculcate those horrible things as proper and people who follow those religions doing the horrible things they've been taught to believe are good. Nope. No relationship at all.

 

[Emily Lake]

The site contains lots of images and IIDB would not allow me to paste more than five so if interested in who all the female Muslims leaders are in various governments, click on the link. Not all Muslims are the same, just like not all Christians are the same.

I know they're not all the same. Both have a portion of practitioners are adherents to fundamentalist beliefs that are in contradiction with the foundational values of western democracy.

I would argue that the portion of practitioners that are fundamentalists is very different.

 

[bilby]

It's not the same book though. There are portions that are very similar, sure. But they aren't actually the same book.

The variation between Christianity and Islam is not substantively greater than the variation within Christianity.

They are different editions of the same book.

There is no "The" Christian Bible; Depending on your criteria, there are between four hundred and nine hundred different Bibles used by Christians, just in English, and thousands of different Christian Bibles if we include those in all languages.

 

[Toni]

Are you sure about that? While I understand that many Christians reject the idea of Mormons being Christian at all, and mainstream Mormons reject FDLS, FDLS consider themselves Christian and they pretty much consider women as property.

Oh, and Project 2025 and its successive missives ….

This is dinsingenuous. I have a hard time believing that you're not aware that it's disingenuous.

That or you've completely closed your eyes and ears to the reality that women in Afghanistan and Iran and similar fundamentalist muslim countries. Pretending these are the even close to the same things is like insisting that foxes are wolves because they're both in the Canidae family.

There is not nearly the difference between living under conservative Islamic rule and living under the FDLS—or under the future that Project 2025 and I understand but have not read its successor time envisions that you wish.

I am well aware of what living under conservative religious regimes entails and it has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with control. God or ‘God’ is just the excuse.

 

[Toni]

People do horrible things. With or without religion

Oh totally. And the reasons they do horrible things are just a complete mystery, and has nothing at all to do with what they believe. There's absolutely no correlation at all between belief systems that promote and inculcate those horrible things as proper and people who follow those religions doing the horrible things they've been taught to believe are good. Nope. No relationship at all.

How much do you know about early days of Communist China?

 

[laughing dog]

Are you sure about that? While I understand that many Christians reject the idea of Mormons being Christian at all, and mainstream Mormons reject FDLS, FDLS consider themselves Christian and they pretty much consider women as property.

Oh, and Project 2025 and its successive missives ….

This is dinsingenuous. I have a hard time believing that you're not aware that it's disingenuous.

That or you've completely closed your eyes and ears to the reality that women in Afghanistan and Iran and similar fundamentalist muslim countries. Pretending these are the even close to the same things is like insisting that foxes are wolves because they're both in the Canidae family.

The site contains lots of images and IIDB would not allow me to paste more than five so if interested in who all the female Muslims leaders are in various governments, click on the link. Not all Muslims are the same, just like not all Christians are the same.

I know they're not all the same. Both have a portion of practitioners are adherents to fundamentalist beliefs that are in contradiction with the foundational values of western democracy.

I would argue that the portion of practitioners that are fundamentalists is very different.

You do realize that absolutely none of this whatsoever has anything to do with the OP topic of the Race for 2024. That is specifically about elections in the United States, not condition of women in Asia or Africa.

It's almost as if you are trying to avert the discussion about real religious threats in the current United States.

 

[TomC]

More seriously - why do you feel it necessary to defend a religion that is actively, currently, in modern times doing such horrible things?

WHY DO YOU BEAT YOUR CHILDREN EMILY!!!

Just an aside - RELIGIONS don’t do horrible things. Religious PEOPLE do horrible things. The fact that so many religious people do horrible things is a reflection upon religions, and if you are religious, you are taking part in those horrors even if you are brainwashed into thinking it’s only the Others who hold Other religious beliefs who commit atrocities.

I forget who pointed out that anyone who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities, but that is the truth at the core of religious conflict.
Religions are UNIFORMLY founded on absurdities, for that very reason.

Great. So how about you explain why a number of posters here seem to think that christianity as practiced in the 21st century is somehow worse and more dangerous than islam as practiced in the 21st century.

Because we're westerners.
Islamists are a terrible ethical problem in other parts of the world. I live in a world dominated by Christians. Increasingly by Christian Dominionist and their favorite political party, the Teaparty who support Trump and such.
The Muslims I know are quite nice people.

I see the usa returning to the bad old days where the religious elites supported the aristocracy and so the aristocracy supported the religious elite.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Do you think the impact to men is the same as to women in islamic-dominant societies?

Do you think it isn't in Christian Dominionist societies? They both literally take their rules from the same book.

The only difference is that the Christian assholes have a real prospect of power in the US, and the Muslim ones don't.

And yet... if you look around the world, it seems as though christian sects aren't actively keeping women as property. Huh, why would that be, do you think?

Because they lost in the 1960s and 1970s, women's rights were expanded (though the equal rights amendment never passed... because gosh... I fucking wonder why). These people didn't let this happen, they were dragged into the present. And now they want to drag America back. But hey... it won't be Somalia. That'll be an optimistic spin when women need a man's help to get a loan again.

Look, I'm aware that 60 years ago women in the west didn't have as much freedom as we have now.

You asked why. I answered why. Christians have been bickering and arguing over morality for hundreds of years. Is slavery right or wrong. Is bigotry right or wrong. Are women in the workplace godly or ungodly. They still haven't come to a consensus yet! The better of them were winning for a while, but the bad ones are making a comeback it seems.

On the other hand, you're acting like that was identical to how women in Afghanistan, Iran, etc. are treated RIGHT NOW TODAY. The fact that you don't see the difference in impact to women between 1960s american and 2026 Afghanistan is a testament to your male myopia.

Being in insurance, you should be familiar with a risk register. Where you gage risks by magnitudes relative to the consequence of the risk and the likelihood of the risk occurring. We do it for large construction projects.

Consequence of jetliner crashing into a work site would be catastrophic. However, chances of it happening are close to zero. So, we don't need to spend any money on the anti-aircraft firing position. Some dumbass walking into the site and falling into the large shaft, falling to his death. Yeah, people are dumb, put up a fence. Dumbass getting to worksite, climbing fence, and then falling into the shaft, and dies. Dumb asses usually aren't that committed, but put up a camera.

Risk of Christian Dominionists rising to power in the US. Rather likely, already in power, control 33% to 44% of the Supreme Court.
Consequence of Christian Dominionists rising to power? Restrictions to access to birth control, social to legal pressures to remove women from workplace. Really uncertain whether it gets The Wonder Years, Leave it to Beaver, Dr. Quinn Medicine Woman, or Captain Caveman.

Risk of Islamic Conservatives rising to power in the US. ROFLMFAO!!! Where?!
Consequences of Islamic Conservatives rising to power? Pretty much the same as above, maybe one show beyond.

Risk of Taliban rising to power in the US. Are we even talking about this?!
Consequences of Taliban rising to power in the US? It'd be pretty fucking bad. Kind of like the airliner crashing into the work site.

I try to limit my real world attentions to issues that are feasible.

 

[Emily Lake]

The variation between Christianity and Islam is not substantively greater than the variation within Christianity.

Sure sure, that whole mohammed versus jesus thing is totally not an important distinction at all. I mean, it's not like there are ENTIRE BOOKS about one that never reference the other, right?

 

[Emily Lake]

Are you sure about that? While I understand that many Christians reject the idea of Mormons being Christian at all, and mainstream Mormons reject FDLS, FDLS consider themselves Christian and they pretty much consider women as property.

Oh, and Project 2025 and its successive missives ….

This is dinsingenuous. I have a hard time believing that you're not aware that it's disingenuous.

That or you've completely closed your eyes and ears to the reality that women in Afghanistan and Iran and similar fundamentalist muslim countries. Pretending these are the even close to the same things is like insisting that foxes are wolves because they're both in the Canidae family.

There is not nearly the difference between living under conservative Islamic rule and living under the FDLS—or under the future that Project 2025 and I understand but have not read its successor time envisions that you wish.

I am well aware of what living under conservative religious regimes entails and it has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with control. God or ‘God’ is just the excuse.

I get that we disagree on a lot of things, but this is truly baffling to me.

Do you genuinely think that there's not a difference between women being stoned to death for having been raped, and their brothers getting to revenge-rape the sisters of the rapist (who is then stoned to death for having been raped)... and being expected to be a housewife?

 

[Emily Lake]

People do horrible things. With or without religion

Oh totally. And the reasons they do horrible things are just a complete mystery, and has nothing at all to do with what they believe. There's absolutely no correlation at all between belief systems that promote and inculcate those horrible things as proper and people who follow those religions doing the horrible things they've been taught to believe are good. Nope. No relationship at all.

How much do you know about early days of Communist China?

Do you think that a lack of religion means there's no belief system?

 

[Toni]

People do horrible things. With or without religion

Oh totally. And the reasons they do horrible things are just a complete mystery, and has nothing at all to do with what they believe. There's absolutely no correlation at all between belief systems that promote and inculcate those horrible things as proper and people who follow those religions doing the horrible things they've been taught to believe are good. Nope. No relationship at all.

How much do you know about early days of Communist China?

Do you think that a lack of religion means there's no belief system?

Not at all. I just don’t think that religion has a monopoly on teaching people to believe horrible things.

Modern Christianity is based upon a book that has been translated many times from the original writings, and both translated and edited to reflect the attitudes and biases and often political ambitions of those who transcribed and edited.

I do not know the extent to which this is true of the Koran or Talmud. Or the holy books of other faiths. I have a particularly dim view of the Book of Mormon.

 

[Toni]

Are you sure about that? While I understand that many Christians reject the idea of Mormons being Christian at all, and mainstream Mormons reject FDLS, FDLS consider themselves Christian and they pretty much consider women as property.

Oh, and Project 2025 and its successive missives ….

This is dinsingenuous. I have a hard time believing that you're not aware that it's disingenuous.

That or you've completely closed your eyes and ears to the reality that women in Afghanistan and Iran and similar fundamentalist muslim countries. Pretending these are the even close to the same things is like insisting that foxes are wolves because they're both in the Canidae family.

There is not nearly the difference between living under conservative Islamic rule and living under the FDLS—or under the future that Project 2025 and I understand but have not read its successor time envisions that you wish.

I am well aware of what living under conservative religious regimes entails and it has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with control. God or ‘God’ is just the excuse.

I get that we disagree on a lot of things, but this is truly baffling to me.

Do you genuinely think that there's not a difference between women being stoned to death for having been raped, and their brothers getting to revenge-rape the sisters of the rapist (who is then stoned to death for having been raped)... and being expected to be a housewife?

The difference is in degree. So far, the notion that all women must be housewives and mothers is just a start. Don’t make any mistake about that . Once one can control a group a little by authority of God ( or whomever/whatever) it is virtually inevitable that the desire to control and the scope of control both grow…out of control.


And of course the truism that absolute power corrupts absolutely.