• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

The search for MH370

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 6, 2007
Messages
34,279
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
Since March 8, a massive search has been under way for the missing 777-200ER, which left Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia on a routing flight to Beijing, China, with 239 people on board, and disappeared over the South China Sea.

The disappearance of this aircraft, with so little evidence as to where it went, and why, or how it got there, has led to an almost unprecedented level of speculation; and it is the validity or otherwise of that speculation, and more importantly, how an interested party determines the likelihood he assigns to a given hypothesis, that I would like to discuss in this thread.

The disappearance of flight 370 is, I believe, a good case study for the way people search for truth; it is a discrete and rare event, with little apparent opportunity for prejudice - despite which, many observers seem to me to have made strenuous efforts to bend the facts to make the situation resemble (as closely as possible), prior incidents involving abnormal behaviour of aircraft, and in particular, the September 11, 2001 hijackings in the US.

As I see it, there are at least five different approaches people have taken, with many combining two, three, four or even all five of these ways of tackling the problem.

The scientific approach

The professional investigators, and the more sensible lay observers, have taken a scientific approach to the issue. The first step is to learn the background, and in the case of the professional investigators, and a handful of experts, this has been a life's work. For those who have not spent an entire lifetime in the field of aviation, avionics, search and rescue, navigation, etc., etc., it is tempting to skip this stage, and rely on the 'experts' to provide the answers. This is a poor approach; without at least some personal knowledge of the background, it is impossible to determine who are experts, and who are merely confident sounding fools.

The subject of aviation appears complex, and is laden with jargon, which is designed for absolute clarity between those with the knowledge, but which can appear incomprehensible to an outsider. However an understanding of many of the key points is not hard to obtain; for example, the detailed technical specifications of the aircraft are available online, as are the details of the Air Traffic Control systems and procedures, aircraft and avionics system capabilities and design, and so on.

With the exception of the tiny number of individuals making a given observation, all of the evidence is taken on trust from somebody else, so the second stage in understanding what occurred is to decide who to believe. It should be easy to do this, as long as one has completed the first stage. If a person makes an assertion that is (or would imply) something technically or physically impossible - such as flying faster than the speed of sound, or further than the maximum range of the aircraft - then that source can be discounted as reliable,

The third stage is to assign probabilities to the information not discarded outright in stage 2; How reliable is the information likely to be? What are the limitations on what could be known? In this case, there are a number of data regarding possible positions of the aircraft after it went 'dark'; radar reports from Thai and Malaysian air force primary radars, and the 'pings' to the INMARSAT satellite, for example. The INMARSAT pings, in my opinion, are very reliable. These signals uniquely and positively identify the aircraft, and tell us that the SATCOM equipment is powered on; they also provide limited position information, in the form of the turnaround time of the 'ping'. This information is highly reliable, despite being of limited value. The radar data is the reverse - a military primary radar gives excellent and precise position data (that is what it was built to do), but how reliable is the identity of the source? There is a big difference between saying "An unidentified aircraft was in the right general area at the time and was tracked to the Andaman Sea" and saying "MH370 was tracked to the Andaman Sea".

Once we have all of the reliable data, with an understanding of the probability that it is relevant, then hypotheses can be tested against that data. Any hypothesis that conflicts with highly reliable facts must be discarded; whatever remains can be assessed on the basis of how well it fits the facts in evidence. As new facts come to light, we can trim the list of hypotheses; and as the list of possibilities grows smaller, more effort can be applied to disproving the remaining hypotheses, until either one hypothesis remains, or the plane is found.

The memory driven approach

Many people do not have the background knowledge and/or the inclination to take a scientific approach; and for these people, the answers to their questions come from experience, or history. It is noticeable when looking at comments from around the world, that Americans and Canadians are particularly drawn to the conclusion that the aircraft was stolen for use as a weapon. After all, the last time they heard about big passenger jets suddenly behaving in an abnormal manner was 9/11. This approach strikes me as being a good compromise between the unreasonable effort required to learn the details of every subject, and the desire to know what occurred. Indeed, in the context of frequent or routine events, it is a good approach to use. It falls down badly when assessing very rare events, because there simply isn't enough history to go on, and because things are not the same now as they were then. The classic example is the generals who are always ready to fight the last war all over again. The past is only a good guide to the future when the rate of change in the environment is slower than the frequency of the events in question; and for wars and commercial aircraft incidents, this is simply not the case.

The memory driven approach is often used in combination with the next two approaches, and in particular with the first of these - Conclusion jumping

Conclusion jumping

By 'Conclusion jumping', I mean the rapid adoption of an hypothesis for whatever reason, and the immediate transformation of that hypothesis into dogma. It can apply to the incident as a whole; or to specific pieces of evidence; but the key characteristic is an unwillingness to change one's mind, even in the face of overwhelming evidence. The 'Eyewitness reports' from the Maldives of an aircraft similar to the missing plane are a good example; despite repeatedly being informed that the timing of these sightings places them an hour after the aircraft would have run out of fuel, and more importantly that these reports were in conflict with the highly reliable INMARSAT data, many people persist in claiming that they must be significant. Likewise the reports of an oil rig worker seeing a burning aircraft over the South China Sea, when at the time of the report, the aircraft in question would have been below the horizon from the rig's position. Even once shown to be incompatible with far more reliable data, these reports continue to be quoted as though they were significant.

Conspiracy theorists

We are all familiar with conspiracy theorists, but in this context I am specifically referring to people who cannot accept that any event is unplanned. Accidents happen, all the time. But to the conspiracy theorist, there is no such thing as an accident - all events, particularly anything bad or unpleasant, must be due to deliberate agency. These are the people who insist that there must have been terrorists on board, or that the pilot or pilots must have been engaged in a deliberate plot to steal the plane.

Of course, some bad things are due to deliberate acts; but in the absence of a shred of hard evidence for malfeasance, assuming is existence violates parsimony. As my dad says, "Never ascribe to malice that which can be adequately explained by incompetence." In my opinion, we can add '... or misfortune' to that saying.

The echo chamber

The last, and perhaps worst, way to find out what happened is to listen to the media. They have a LOT of airtime to fill, and a tiny sprinkling of facts to discuss; and as a result they are the last place one should seek any real information. In the 21st century, we all have access via the internet, to most if not all of the primary sources used by the journalists, and those sources are far less prone to error than the news reports into which they are fed. A speculation by a supposed 'expert' who is an anonymous internet blogger, gets reported as a likelihood by a major newspaper's website, which is used as a source by a TV news show, which is picked up on by hundreds of poorly informed bloggers, who report it as hard fact, and the cycle continues. If you can't get information about the primary source for a fact, and you can't confirm that fact against the primary source, it is effectively worthless. The vast majority of the news media has outlived its usefulness, and has survived by transforming itself into 'newsertainment', in which popularity with the audience is of far more importance than factual accuracy.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To me, the interesting thing about the above is not the tragic incident of the missing flight MH370 itself, so much as the illumination it casts on how people think - or how they fail to think. So many events and issues in the world, so many clearly false beliefs, stem from the misapplication of these techniques for obtaining information about the reality we occupy. In the last two weeks we have seen the birth of misinformation on a massive scale; the lies have flown around the world three times before the truth - which as of this posting is still unknown - could get its boots on.

No doubt, if the final fate of MH370 is ever known, some people will still cling to their preferred but disproven hypotheses, for the rest of their lives. I say 'if', because it is far from certain that the aircraft will ever be located; and even if it is, the 'black boxes' are unlikely to tell the whole story - particularly in the case of the CVR, which only records the last two hours of flightdeck sound. The DFDR may be more informative, but if it is found, much of what it tells will already be known from the location from which it was recovered.

People hate a mystery; and many in the modern world have come to expect 'closure' as though it was their right. But life is not a book or a movie, and there is no 'The End'.
 
The whole business about "experts" in the news really torques my 'nards. Modern "news" outlets use them as engines of speculation because one overpriced expert is cheaper than a team of underpaid reporters doing actual reporting on actual facts. Every time I see one of those talking heads on TV, I can't help but think of that Grace Hopper quote: "One accurate measurement is worth a thousand expert opinions."
 
I've been intrigued by the fact that the aircraft made two left turns and then apparently never came out of the second turn. I don't know how autopilots work. I assume they just keep the plane flying. Is there any function in an autopilot that would attempt to bring it back to it's departure point?

Mallory and Irvine carried a camera with them when they attempted their summit of Everest. It is this camera that could potentially hold the answer as to whether they ever did summit. My personal opinion is that they did not, despite testimony that they were seen approaching just below the Hillary Step.

There's not much about my epistemology that is faith based, none that I am aware of. I've never been to China but feel certain that there is this region of our planet that corresponds to the location and description I hear about often. It makes the most sense based on a lot of evidence although I have never experienced it personally.

Flight 370 is similar to incidents that gave rise to the whole Bermuda Triangle thing. In the most sensationalized of those cases what we see is pilot error. It's possible these pilots thought they were headed on their proper azimuth when in fact they were navigating by land and got misdirected - somehow. But then why would they stop transponding? Lots of questions.

Not sure where I fit into your categories, but as I stated elsewhere I am leaning at this point toward pilot mischief/pilot error.

In my Army days before things like GPS were even conceived we would have to navigate overland at night with only our compass, a topo map and someone pacing out the distance we traveled. We could not even use the sky to navigate and it was too dark to see landmarks to find our position in deep woods. Things begin to get very strange when you do that, especially when you have a large group of people in tow and you're on unfamiliar ground. It's a long shot but I can see this happening.
 
What it all demonstrates is inductive vs deductive analysis.

Trying to reason out causes ad reach conclusions going from the specific to the general and vice versa.

The plane disappears, the s[specific. Assigning causes without hard data, top down deductive reasoning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deductive_reasoning
 
Someone is going to make some money retrofitting real time locators of some flavor on aircraft, that can no be turned off, or de-powered.
 
Someone is going to make some money retrofitting real time locators of some flavor on aircraft, that can no be turned off, or de-powered.

I'd prefer real time communication system passing all onboard information including communications being transmitted from all A/C all the time. We have the technology we can build it.
 
i suspect the antimessianic, antikhalifate DAJALL DID IT. he lives round there with his hairy she spy THE JASSASAH!!!
 
Found it!

Well, a bit of it.

Which has been drifting for over a year.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/malaysia/11771229/MH370-wreckage-found-on-Reunion-matches-Malaysia-Airlines-flight.html

Still, that object is astonishingly similar in appearance to a 777 port-wing flaperon (an inboard aileron that is designed to droop with the flaps when they are extended), and there is only one missing 777 port wing in the Indian Ocean region.

A floating part of this type washing up on Reunion, about this long after the loss of the aircraft, is certainly consistent with a crash having occurred in the general area of the current search.

So that rules out the crazy ideas about hijackers landing it somewhere; or the spooks diverting it to Diego Garcia to capture some passengers; or a flight North to central Asia; and it makes a crash in the South China Sea look pretty unlikely too.
 
Well, a bit of it.

Which has been drifting for over a year.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/malaysia/11771229/MH370-wreckage-found-on-Reunion-matches-Malaysia-Airlines-flight.html

Still, that object is astonishingly similar in appearance to a 777 port-wing flaperon (an inboard aileron that is designed to droop with the flaps when they are extended), and there is only one missing 777 port wing in the Indian Ocean region.

A floating part of this type washing up on Reunion, about this long after the loss of the aircraft, is certainly consistent with a crash having occurred in the general area of the current search.

So that rules out the crazy ideas about hijackers landing it somewhere; or the spooks diverting it to Diego Garcia to capture some passengers; or a flight North to central Asia; and it makes a crash in the South China Sea look pretty unlikely too.

Well I thought that at first and I don't see why it should be consided 'crazy'; in the days which followed I expected it to be flown into a well-known high-rise somewhere.
 
Well, a bit of it.

Which has been drifting for over a year.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/malaysia/11771229/MH370-wreckage-found-on-Reunion-matches-Malaysia-Airlines-flight.html

Still, that object is astonishingly similar in appearance to a 777 port-wing flaperon (an inboard aileron that is designed to droop with the flaps when they are extended), and there is only one missing 777 port wing in the Indian Ocean region.

A floating part of this type washing up on Reunion, about this long after the loss of the aircraft, is certainly consistent with a crash having occurred in the general area of the current search.

So that rules out the crazy ideas about hijackers landing it somewhere; or the spooks diverting it to Diego Garcia to capture some passengers; or a flight North to central Asia; and it makes a crash in the South China Sea look pretty unlikely too.

EUREKA!
 
I broadly agree with the OP but I have some reservations.

I was in holiday when the Germanwing airplane was crashed deliberately in the south of France by its co-pilot and was able to follow from one news bulletin to the next the shift in the thinking of the experts. I can’t remember the specifics but some of what they said particularly the first few days appeared to me obviously untrue and was effectively disprove by the end. The main problem was essentially their views as to which alternative scenarios, or which part of these scenarios, were deemed possible and which weren’t. The actual scenario was never even discussed as a possibility before some hard evidence started to turn up quite late in the whole saga, and it was indeed the work of investigative journalists that did put the spotlights on it, at least as I think I could infer at the time from the news reports I saw.

However, one aspect of the actual scenario is that it affected the level of trust the public has in airline operators generally, in the sense that what Germanwing did (or didn’t do) could be extended as a possibility to other operators. Nothing much that Germanwing and other operators could do about the bad publicity. However, this may explain why the actual scenario was never considered by the experts initially. To do so would have amounted to the suggestion, without any evidence at the time, that Germanwing and by inference many other airline operators were at fault for not checking as a matter of routine the mental stability of their pilots. I guess one could be sued for less than that so both the experts and the news channels will want to be sure before discussing specific possibilities. The trick is probably much harder to pull off than we may like to think. The result is that experts and news channels look bad, as the OP shows, and there’s little they can do about it.

Also, regarding the wild speculations that follow any major disaster and some minor events, it is a fact of life that human beings could not possibly keep themselves informed about all aspects of life. It is also a fact that most people have in effect a very narrow window on the world’s affairs and events, even if connected to the Internet. My view therefore is that what people do in terms of speculations is precisely what you do when you don’t have enough information: You speculate. You speculate based on whatever information you do have. So it seems a bit childish to me to see that as a flaw: It’s just human nature and the facts of life.

We should also make a distinction between people who speculate in this way and the large contingent of people who for all sorts of reasons have become obsessed with possible cover-ups and hidden agendas, and will spend all their free time to trawl the Internet in search of “clues” so as to be able cook up and reveal to the astonished world the most farfetched theory one could possibly imagine. One simple way to put it is that some people are sick enough that their behaviour should not be regarded as characteristic of what human beings typically do. There are seven billions people on this planet and the large contingent engaging in the dissemination of wild theories only makes up a small proportion of the earth’s population.

Finally, it should also be noted that some people, possibly quite a few, will propagate wild theories not because they believe them but because they are actively engaged in disinformation, whatever their reasons for doing that. Some may even preach falsehood thinking it’s the best way to get to the truth.
All this combined, I believe, put a serious dent into the general drift of the OP. Basically, people do what they do for the reasons that they have given their circumstances, about which there’s not much we can do short of changing the way the world is governed and perhaps even changing the nature human beings have as a result of evolution.

That being said, the OP is a good preach and may succeed in converting some agitated people into behaving more reasonably.
EB
 
That being said, the OP is a good preach and may succeed in converting some agitated people into behaving more reasonably.
EB

Stop being an idealist. Good preaching brought an agitated person to preachers who were reasonable in Charleston SC where he killed them. Then the families ..... confederate battle flag removed ..... never mind.
 
So that rules out the crazy ideas about hijackers landing it somewhere; or the spooks diverting it to Diego Garcia to capture some passengers; or a flight North to central Asia; and it makes a crash in the South China Sea look pretty unlikely too.

Well I thought that at first and I don't see why it should be consided 'crazy'; in the days which followed I expected it to be flown into a well-known high-rise somewhere.

So close to the alleged Pluto flyby? Very suspicious. smiley_emoticons_alien6.gif
 
That being said, the OP is a good preach and may succeed in converting some agitated people into behaving more reasonably.
EB

Stop being an idealist.
This is definitely a smear against my reputation. :sadyes:

Good preaching brought an agitated person to preachers who were reasonable in Charleston SC where he killed them. Then the families ..... confederate battle flag removed ..... never mind.
What did you have for breakfast this morning I wonder?!

You're a bit more agitated than usual but I wouldn't preach to you anyway. :rolleyes:
EB
 
Stop being an idealist.
This is definitely a smear against my reputation. :sadyes:

Good preaching brought an agitated person to preachers who were reasonable in Charleston SC where he killed them. Then the families ..... confederate battle flag removed ..... never mind.
What did you have for breakfast this morning I wonder?!

You're a bit more agitated than usual but I wouldn't preach to you anyway. :rolleyes:
EB

Bad experience I guess. Read a post form an alleged bird who spoke.
 
From what I read, it appears the piece shows signs that there was not a violent mid-air breakup, but apparently the plane augured in slowly.
 
From what I read, it appears the piece shows signs that there was not a violent mid-air breakup, but apparently the plane augured in slowly.

There is no way that a sufficiently detailed examination to show that could have already been made.

Yet again there is a shitload of speculation rushing into the void left by an absence of facts; some of it is less crazy than the rest, but it is nevertheless unsupported by evidence, and the wise course is to wait the few months it will require for a proper forensic examination of the flaperon.

About all we can say so far is that the location and timing of this find is not inconsistent with the plane having entered the Indian Ocean close to the current search area; and that it IS inconsistent with (and therefore, rules out) the northern route hypothesis, and any of the wild conspiracy theories that had it divert intact to an unknown location for some nefarious purpose.
 
From what I read, it appears the piece shows signs that there was not a violent mid-air breakup, but apparently the plane augured in slowly.

There is no way that a sufficiently detailed examination to show that could have already been made.

Yet again there is a shitload of speculation rushing into the void left by an absence of facts; some of it is less crazy than the rest, but it is nevertheless unsupported by evidence, and the wise course is to wait the few months it will require for a proper forensic examination of the flaperon.

About all we can say so far is that the location and timing of this find is not inconsistent with the plane having entered the Indian Ocean close to the current search area; and that it IS inconsistent with (and therefore, rules out) the northern route hypothesis, and any of the wild conspiracy theories that had it divert intact to an unknown location for some nefarious purpose.

I imagine it would be relatively easy to tell the difference between the part of a wing being ripped off with tremendous force and not.
 
There is no way that a sufficiently detailed examination to show that could have already been made.

Yet again there is a shitload of speculation rushing into the void left by an absence of facts; some of it is less crazy than the rest, but it is nevertheless unsupported by evidence, and the wise course is to wait the few months it will require for a proper forensic examination of the flaperon.

About all we can say so far is that the location and timing of this find is not inconsistent with the plane having entered the Indian Ocean close to the current search area; and that it IS inconsistent with (and therefore, rules out) the northern route hypothesis, and any of the wild conspiracy theories that had it divert intact to an unknown location for some nefarious purpose.

I imagine it would be relatively easy to tell the difference between the part of a wing being ripped off with tremendous force and not.

You would imagine wrong; flaps, engines and control surfaces on modern aircraft are specifically designed to detach if a force is applied to them that would otherwise be sufficient to cause damage to the wing; It is far better to lose a flaperon or even an engine than it is to lose a wing, as a 777 is quite capable of controlled flight minus one engine, and/or one set of control surfaces (as long as the set on the other wing are in good condition), but major wing damage could easily render the aircraft incapable of flight.

Once the force applied to the flaperon reaches this designed failure threshold, the flaperon will part company with the wing, whether or not the aircraft goes on to recover into level flight, make a controlled ditching, or crash into the ocean at high speed.

It may be possible to tell which scenario resulted in the loss of this component; but it won't be easy, and it will likely require microscopic examination of the points of failure, by an expert in the properties of the materials involved. This examination will be made no easier by the fact that the component has been in the ocean for a year, subject to salt water corrosion, mechanical erosion of the exposed surfaces due to wave action, and fouling by marine life - Barnacles and other shellfish are quite adept at eroding surfaces to give themselves a better holdfast.
 
So that rules out the crazy ideas about hijackers landing it somewhere; or the spooks diverting it to Diego Garcia to capture some passengers; or a flight North to central Asia; and it makes a crash in the South China Sea look pretty unlikely too.
You've harshly criticised fellow human beings for being essentially unscientific in their approach to the realities of reality so it's only fair somebody criticises you for poor logic, yes? So here we go:
Whatever we find around the Ile de la Réunion or on its beaches, it won't rule out the crazy scenarios you say it does. Hijackers and spooks, for example, might have decided to try to lead astray rational enquirers and investigators (and possibly alligators) by planting there a wing debris taken from the very aircraft they would have hijacked. They would have had the time, the means and the motive. Worse, they might have decided specifically to lead you astray! I don't want to put pressure on you but one has to wonder what it is you have done to them! :rolleyes:
EB
 
Back
Top Bottom