The shooting of Keith Lamont Scott, and aftermath

[Angry Floof]

Flashing it is a threat.

Not in an open carry state, it isn't.

States with open carry laws also have laws concerning brandishing or improper handling of a firearm in public. So I guess Loren could clarify what he means by "flashing." If he means just letting people see the firearm, then that is just open carry.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Not in an open carry state, it isn't.

States with open carry laws also have laws concerning brandishing or improper handling of a firearm in public. So I guess Loren could clarify what he means by "flashing." If he means just letting people see the firearm, then that is just open carry.

Brandishing specifically means the display of the firearm in a threatening manner. While this is sometimes left open to interpretation, IN PRACTICE it means pointing the gun at someone or acting as if you are about to point the gun at someone. That is, body language and stance that indicate the gun has been made ready and is near to being used.

Simply holding a gun in your hand is not illegal in an open-carry state. Unless you're black, of course.

 

[Angry Floof]

States with open carry laws also have laws concerning brandishing or improper handling of a firearm in public. So I guess Loren could clarify what he means by "flashing." If he means just letting people see the firearm, then that is just open carry.

Brandishing specifically means the display of the firearm in a threatening manner. While this is sometimes left open to interpretation, IN PRACTICE it means pointing the gun at someone or acting as if you are about to point the gun at someone. That is, body language and stance that indicate the gun has been made ready and is near to being used.

Simply holding a gun in your hand is not illegal in an open-carry state. Unless you're black, of course.

Right. I agree. I wasn't trying to make a specific argument, just that Loren's statement didn't make it clear.

 

[dismal]

Simply holding a gun in your hand is not illegal in an open-carry state.

When you have a bunch of cops shouting "drop the gun" at you, it may not be the best time to explore your legal right to walk around with a gun in your hand. Particularly if you are a gun felon with no legal right to be walking around with a gun in your hand.

Unless you're black, of course.

The cop who shot him was black. The police chief is black. Why do you think they have some special desire to shoot black people?

 

[Arctish]

When you have a bunch of cops shouting "drop the gun" at you, it may not be the best time to explore your legal right to walk around with a gun in your hand. Particularly if you are a gun felon with no legal right to be walking around with a gun in your hand.

At what point in time did Scott walk around with a gun in his hand? Please be specific.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Flashing != carrying.

Flashing != illegal.

If the alleged flashing happened in a state that doesn't allow people to openly carry weapons there might be cause for a cop to investigate the matter and perhaps detain the owner. But if it happens in an open carry state, what's the problem? Open carry laws allow you to reveal the fact you are armed. That's rather the point of having them.

You still don't seem to get it.

Having your gun visible and flashing it are two very different actions.

You're female--think of the difference between being confronted by a nudist walking down the street vs being confronted by a flasher. Big difference, isn't it?

Open carry vs flashing your gun is the same thing. Admittedly a thread but look at the end of page 1--a response from a firearms instructor:

http://www.usacarry.com/forums/deadly-force-and-the-law/38145-nc-elsewhere-brandishing.html

Likewise, look at the post at the bottom of page 2--if you check his profile you'll again find he's a firearms instructor.

 

[ZiprHead]

If I was carrying a gun (I don't, don't even own one) and I'm approached by suspicious persons, you're damn skippy I'm going to show them my gun. Better to diffuse the situation before it gets out of hand then wait for shit to get real.

 

[Malintent]

When you have a bunch of cops shouting "drop the gun" at you, it may not be the best time to explore your legal right to walk around with a gun in your hand. Particularly if you are a gun felon with no legal right to be walking around with a gun in your hand.

Unless you're black, of course.

The cop who shot him was black. The police chief is black. Why do you think they have some special desire to shoot black people?

5 out of 6 blacks that are shot, are shot by other black people... so, that makes sense.

 

[Malintent]

"open carry" is not much of a right beyond simply having the right to own a firearm, that applies to the transport of the weapon. In NY, there is no open carry, and guns must be transported in a locked case, unloaded. In states where there is a lot of hunting, open carry is more common.

You also have the constitutional right to "free speech". This does not give you the right to yell 'FIRE' in a crowded movie theater when there is no fire.
You also cannot exercise your "free speech" when filing your taxes or signing any legal document that contains a willful omission or error... you are not free to lie on these documents.

Same thing with open carry... it gives you certain rights, that end abruptly where everyone else's rights begin.
I have the right to not feel intimidated by a gun wielding kid with some chip on his shoulder because he thinks he is some kind of patriot by acting inappropriately for the local culture for purposes far beyond the transport of his gun.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If I was carrying a gun (I don't, don't even own one) and I'm approached by suspicious persons, you're damn skippy I'm going to show them my gun. Better to diffuse the situation before it gets out of hand then wait for shit to get real.

Then I hope you learn something about the law before you get a gun.

 

[Malintent]

If I was carrying a gun (I don't, don't even own one) and I'm approached by suspicious persons, you're damn skippy I'm going to show them my gun. Better to diffuse the situation before it gets out of hand then wait for shit to get real.

Then I hope you learn something about the law before you get a gun.

... and something about guns. Never show anyone your gun, unless you are prepared to fire it. It ain't poker... there ain't no bluffing in this 'game'.

- - - Updated - - -

If I was carrying a gun (I don't, don't even own one) and I'm approached by suspicious persons, you're damn skippy I'm going to show them my gun. Better to diffuse the situation before it gets out of hand then wait for shit to get real.

Then I hope you learn something about the law before you get a gun.

... and something about guns. Never show anyone your gun, unless you are prepared to fire it. It ain't poker... there ain't no bluffing in this 'game'.

 

[KeepTalking]

... and something about guns. Never show anyone your gun, unless you are prepared to fire it. It ain't poker... there ain't no bluffing in this 'game'.

Get it right. It's "never point a gun at anyone unless you are prepared to fire it", the way you phrased it is fucking stupid.

No one would ever be able to sell a gun the way you say it... wait, maybe you have a good point there, after all...

 

[Arctish]

Flashing != illegal.

If the alleged flashing happened in a state that doesn't allow people to openly carry weapons there might be cause for a cop to investigate the matter and perhaps detain the owner. But if it happens in an open carry state, what's the problem? Open carry laws allow you to reveal the fact you are armed. That's rather the point of having them.

You still don't seem to get it.

Having your gun visible and flashing it are two very different actions.

Having it visible and brandishing it are two different actions. Having it visible for a few seconds and having it visible for an hour are essentially the same thing in an open carry state. The gun can be seen for a measurable amount of time. So what? If the person isn't displaying or handling it in a threatening manner (brandishing), then it's just a gun being openly carried.

You're female--think of the difference between being confronted by a nudist walking down the street vs being confronted by a flasher. Big difference, isn't it?

Yes.

It's the difference between my father-in-law drawing his gun from its holster so he can see if the safety's on, and him drawing it so he can frighten his neighbor. It's the difference between open carry and brandishing.

Open carry vs flashing your gun is the same thing. Admittedly a thread but look at the end of page 1--a response from a firearms instructor:

http://www.usacarry.com/forums/deadly-force-and-the-law/38145-nc-elsewhere-brandishing.html

Likewise, look at the post at the bottom of page 2--if you check his profile you'll again find he's a firearms instructor.

You appear to be equating flashing a gun with brandishing it. If that's the case, just say brandishing. Brandishing a gun is illegal just about everywhere in this country, as that firearms instructor makes abundantly clear.

If you're alleging Scott brandished a gun, either state your case clearly and provide supporting evidence, or admit you're speculating about things no one who was there said happened.

 

[Arctish]

"open carry" is not much of a right beyond simply having the right to own a firearm, that applies to the transport of the weapon. In NY, there is no open carry, and guns must be transported in a locked case, unloaded. In states where there is a lot of hunting, open carry is more common.

You also have the constitutional right to "free speech". This does not give you the right to yell 'FIRE' in a crowded movie theater when there is no fire.
You also cannot exercise your "free speech" when filing your taxes or signing any legal document that contains a willful omission or error... you are not free to lie on these documents.

Same thing with open carry... it gives you certain rights, that end abruptly where everyone else's rights begin.
I have the right to not feel intimidated by a gun wielding kid with some chip on his shoulder because he thinks he is some kind of patriot by acting inappropriately for the local culture for purposes far beyond the transport of his gun.

Whether you agree with open carry laws or not, they are the law in some states and they make the open carrying of firearms legal. So the presence of a gun in an open carry state is not reason enough for the cops to go ballistic and act like they found the FBI's Most Wanted.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You appear to be equating flashing a gun with brandishing it. If that's the case, just say brandishing. Brandishing a gun is illegal just about everywhere in this country, as that firearms instructor makes abundantly clear.

If you're alleging Scott brandished a gun, either state your case clearly and provide supporting evidence, or admit you're speculating about things no one who was there said happened.

Flashing it for the intent of running someone off is brandishing it.

 

[Arctish]

You appear to be equating flashing a gun with brandishing it. If that's the case, just say brandishing. Brandishing a gun is illegal just about everywhere in this country, as that firearms instructor makes abundantly clear.

If you're alleging Scott brandished a gun, either state your case clearly and provide supporting evidence, or admit you're speculating about things no one who was there said happened.

Flashing it for the intent of running someone off is brandishing it.

My point exactly. If you're claiming Scott brandished the gun, just say so.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Flashing it for the intent of running someone off is brandishing it.

My point exactly. If you're claiming Scott brandished the gun, just say so.

I was responding to a proposed scenario that I find makes a lot of sense at explaining what we know about the case. It was just thrown out there but I rather think it's right as the answer that involves the minimum of jumps has a considerable tendency to be right.

We know the guy shot someone in the past for being too nosy. He apparently rolled a joint in view of some cops--no surprise that the cops took an interest. He didn't like the interest and responded in street fashion--flashing his gun to get them to leave him alone. Oops, what works on the street tends to backfire badly when used on the cops. They come after him, he panics as he knows he's going back for some years.

 

[Arctish]

My point exactly. If you're claiming Scott brandished the gun, just say so.

I was responding to a proposed scenario that I find makes a lot of sense at explaining what we know about the case. It was just thrown out there but I rather think it's right as the answer that involves the minimum of jumps has a considerable tendency to be right.

We know the guy shot someone in the past for being too nosy.

Actually, we don't know that. No one has posted much information regarding the shooting in Texas, and no source I've found identifies the motive. If you have a source for that information please share it with the rest of us.

He apparently rolled a joint in view of some cops--no surprise that the cops took an interest.

I heard that allegation, but I didn't hear that the cops found marijuana after they shot him. Did they? What is your source for that information?

He didn't like the interest and responded in street fashion--flashing his gun to get them to leave him alone.

^This is a bare-assed assertion. You have no evidence he saw the cops before they started shouting at him. You have no evidence he brandished the gun. You have no evidence he responded to anything in 'street-fashion', whatever that means.

Oops, what works on the street tends to backfire badly when used on the cops. They come after him, he panics as he knows he's going back for some years.

Did you see him panicking? I didn't. I saw him exiting his car and slowly backing away with his hands empty and visible. He might have pulled up his pant leg to show his ankle holster was also empty, but that's not clear in the recording.

I think you find that story about a blunt-rolling, gun-brandishing black guy who shoots nosy people believable because it reinforces your preconceived notions. It can't be because it fits the known facts of this case, because it doesn't.

 

[Malintent]

... and something about guns. Never show anyone your gun, unless you are prepared to fire it. It ain't poker... there ain't no bluffing in this 'game'.

Get it right. It's "never point a gun at anyone unless you are prepared to fire it", the way you phrased it is fucking stupid.

No one would ever be able to sell a gun the way you say it... wait, maybe you have a good point there, after all...

Yes, point at. Thank you for the pedantic comment that served no purpose.
Simply showing you have a gun to someone in such a way that the person you are showing it to feels threatened by you having it (exactly the point being made - to intimidate a scary person), is called "brandishing a weapon", and is illegal.

 

[KeepTalking]

Get it right. It's "never point a gun at anyone unless you are prepared to fire it", the way you phrased it is fucking stupid.

No one would ever be able to sell a gun the way you say it... wait, maybe you have a good point there, after all...

Thank you.

You're welcome.