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The Swedish #MeToo movement took an unexpected turn

Angry Floof

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"...hold your fellow creeps accountable"

See?
THATS how you win hearts and minds.
#poison_well #friendly_fire

Nothing I could say could possibly be your excuse for anything you do or think. "I was gonna become a better person with a better view of myself and the world around me, but youuuuuuuuuu were rude, so never mind."

Well, ladies, we almost had them convinced, but then I had to go and be all rude and shit to Lion. Oh, well.
 

Loren Pechtel

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On Facebook yesterday. A girl was asked about her experiences and she said, "Not really, just groping and catcalling and stuff, just normal stuff."

That's not normal. It's not acceptable. Stop looking for reasons to criticize women and hold your fellow creeps accountable instead.

You are saying all men are creeps.
 

Loren Pechtel

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Humanities behaviour is the result of an evolutionary arms race. I find it hard to believe that women are any less prone to violence than men. I think the difference comes down to choice of weapons. Since women are physically weaker they will more often resort to psychological violence.

Exhibit A is how common physical violence is in lesbian relationships.

And yet, here we are, a lot less prone to violence than men.

If men spent half as much time thinking about how they can help and protect women from their fellow predators as they do about making excuses and looking for ways out, we'd have very little violence against women.

Did you even read what he wrote??

Domestic violence is about equally distributed. Plenty of domestic violence in lesbian relationships.

In other words, women are about as violent as men, it's just self-preservation, not engaging in violence against those who are likely to retaliate effectively.
 

Angry Floof

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On Facebook yesterday. A girl was asked about her experiences and she said, "Not really, just groping and catcalling and stuff, just normal stuff."

That's not normal. It's not acceptable. Stop looking for reasons to criticize women and hold your fellow creeps accountable instead.

You are saying all men are creeps.

I don't actually think all men are creeps, but you can believe that if you want. I don't care. Die mad about what you think I think. Your regard for women and your reluctance to hold men accountable has nothing to do with me.

The vast majority of you are absolutely fine with the pain women and girls go through for millennia at the hands of violent men and men in positions of power to do anything about it who turn a blind eye. At even the slightest hint that some men might be experiencing discomfort at the #metoo movement, you cry like fucking little bitches. So fine, don't help, but don't fucking cry when what's necessary to make actual change in the world becomes painful for you. It doesn't have to be painful for you. No one particularly wants it to be, but if that's what it takes... :confused2:

We're done making things comfortable for people who don't give a flying crap about half the human race. (Actually a lot more than half, but we're only talking about women and girls here.)
 

Angry Floof

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Humanities behaviour is the result of an evolutionary arms race. I find it hard to believe that women are any less prone to violence than men. I think the difference comes down to choice of weapons. Since women are physically weaker they will more often resort to psychological violence.

Exhibit A is how common physical violence is in lesbian relationships.

And yet, here we are, a lot less prone to violence than men.

If men spent half as much time thinking about how they can help and protect women from their fellow predators as they do about making excuses and looking for ways out, we'd have very little violence against women.

Did you even read what he wrote??

Domestic violence is about equally distributed. Plenty of domestic violence in lesbian relationships.

In other words, women are about as violent as men, it's just self-preservation, not engaging in violence against those who are likely to retaliate effectively.

I did read it, and it's bullshit. About 15% of domestic violence victims are men. Even considering their reluctance to report doesn't make a difference because women and girls are also reluctant to report.

Whatever amount of violence you claim for lesbian couples, go ahead and at least double it for gay couples who are both male.

No, women are not fucking just as violent as men. Stop perpetuating this utter fucking bullshit that does more harm to girls and women!

On top of that, women do not live in a culture where women are in authority either in general or in the traditional ideas that are steeped deep in the substrate of Western society for millennia AND are being shoved down our throats daily even now.

We don't go around intimidating men or degrading them every time they walk by. Show me one god damn man who is afraid or even reluctant to walk by a bunch of women they don't know in public.

Not only are men more violent and responsible for more domestic violence, we also live in a culture that offers protection and comfort for those men and little for the women and girls they abuse.

You aren't defending anything worthwhile or even true here. What are you actually defending? Are you really so oblivious to women and girls and so steeped in, I don't know, Men's Rights AM radio or some shit, that you honestly believe you are saying anything either realistic or grownup here??

Also, ask all your male friends if they ever have been and at what age they were first the victim of predatory sexual remarks from women. Even if on the off chance you find one who even has a story there, it's not going to be a common theme.

The world we live in is steeped in misogyny and comfort for men.

What are you doing to make a difference there? Oh, nothing? OK. Well, that's fine, but the least you can do is shut the fuck up and sit down.
 

Toni

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Given the level and severity of domestic violence perpetuated by men in women compared with women’s violence towards men, I think you have a point. I was fortunate to have a husband/father to my children who truly loves young children and had tremendous patience with all aspects of caring for them. Most of the other fathers in our group and most of the fathers of my friends’ children were far less involved. When my daughter babysat, she noted that the mothers were very much the ones who were ‘in charge’ of all things child related including discipline, which in our social group was primarily setting limits and schedules.

Domestic violence is about equally split.

It's just male on female tends to inflict more harm than female on male.

Not by the stats I've seen.

https://ncadv.org/STATISTICS#:~:tex...n 3 women and,violence by an intimate partner.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK499891/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_in_the_United_States

In the United States, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics in 1995 women reported a six times greater rate of intimate partner violence than men.[31][32] The National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) indicates that in 1998 about 876,340 violent crimes were committed in the U.S. against women by their current or former spouses, or boyfriends.[33] According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, in the United States 4.8 million women suffer intimate partner related physical assaults and rapes and 2.9 million men are victims of physical assault from their partners.[34][35
 

DrZoidberg

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On Facebook yesterday. A girl was asked about her experiences and she said, "Not really, just groping and catcalling and stuff, just normal stuff."

That's not normal. It's not acceptable. Stop looking for reasons to criticize women and hold your fellow creeps accountable instead.

You are saying all men are creeps.

I don't think she is. She's saying that creeps are common. You need very few creepy guys for this to be a problem for all women most of the time.
 

DrZoidberg

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On Facebook yesterday. A girl was asked about her experiences and she said, "Not really, just groping and catcalling and stuff, just normal stuff."

That's not normal. It's not acceptable. Stop looking for reasons to criticize women and hold your fellow creeps accountable instead.

You are saying all men are creeps.

I don't actually think all men are creeps, but you can believe that if you want. I don't care. Die mad about what you think I think. Your regard for women and your reluctance to hold men accountable has nothing to do with me.

The vast majority of you are absolutely fine with the pain women and girls go through for millennia at the hands of violent men and men in positions of power to do anything about it who turn a blind eye. At even the slightest hint that some men might be experiencing discomfort at the #metoo movement, you cry like fucking little bitches. So fine, don't help, but don't fucking cry when what's necessary to make actual change in the world becomes painful for you. It doesn't have to be painful for you. No one particularly wants it to be, but if that's what it takes... :confused2:

We're done making things comfortable for people who don't give a flying crap about half the human race. (Actually a lot more than half, but we're only talking about women and girls here.)

I don't think it's true that men turn a blind eye. I think it's the other way around. Men are almost always proactively working to prevent it. It's like a conspiracy of the patriarchy to prevent creepy men to creep or worse. Its just that non-creepy men can't be everywhere all the time and that it's going to be a problem even with the best efforts of decent guys. And that's what's common.

Add to that cultures (historical and contemporary) that are straight up sexist and misogynist. I'm not arguing against those existing.

What I'm trying to say is that the vast majority of men are actually decent and are willing to, at great personal risk, protect women around them.
 

DrZoidberg

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I should add that I'm a big friend of feminism and think that #MeToo, overall is a good thing. But too much of a good thing is a bad thing.

I think it's fair to call Swedish #MeToo "toxic femininity". I'm not so sure what toxic masculinity is any longer. But if it's a thing then the Swedish #MeToo must surely be the female equivalent.

#MeToo in Denmark is purely a positive thing. I have nothing negative to say about it. So I'm not against #MeToo in general.
 

Lion IRC

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"...hold your fellow creeps accountable"

See?
THATS how you win hearts and minds.
#poison_well #friendly_fire

Nothing I could say could possibly be your excuse for anything you do or think. "I was gonna become a better person with a better view of myself and the world around me, but youuuuuuuuuu were rude, so never mind."

Well, ladies, we almost had them convinced, but then I had to go and be all rude and shit to Lion. Oh, well.

Hey, it's not us concern trolls you need to worry about. I've got no skin in the game.

But you're flunking Marketing101 in the same way you've been doing for the last 50 years of feminist woketivism.

You're walking into into a bar full of alpha males shouting...'hey all you creepy scumbag wannabe rapists..."
 

Lion IRC

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"...hold your fellow creeps accountable"

See?
THATS how you win hearts and minds.
#poison_well #friendly_fire

Nothing I could say could possibly be your excuse for anything you do or think. "I was gonna become a better person with a better view of myself and the world around me, but youuuuuuuuuu were rude, so never mind."

Well, ladies, we almost had them convinced, but then I had to go and be all rude and shit to Lion. Oh, well.

Hey, it's not us concern trolls you need to worry about. I've got no skin in the game.

But you're flunking Marketing101 in the same way you've been doing for the last 50 years of feminist woketivism.

You're walking into into a bar full of alpha males shouting...'hey all you creepy scumbag wannabe rapists..."


1950's
Women and children first. God and Country. June and Ward Cleaver.

1980's Rosanne, Homer Simpson...1990's Al Bundy 2000's Peter and Lois Griffin (Family Guy) 2010's Phoebe Waller-Bridge (Fleabag) 2020's Frank Gallagher (Shameless)
 

DrZoidberg

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Hey, it's not us concern trolls you need to worry about. I've got no skin in the game.

But you're flunking Marketing101 in the same way you've been doing for the last 50 years of feminist woketivism.

You're walking into into a bar full of alpha males shouting...'hey all you creepy scumbag wannabe rapists..."


1950's
Women and children first. God and Country. June and Ward Cleaver.

1980's Rosanne, Homer Simpson...1990's Al Bundy 2000's Peter and Lois Griffin (Family Guy) 2010's Phoebe Waller-Bridge (Fleabag) 2020's Frank Gallagher (Shameless)

In the 1950's beating your woman and raping her was both legal and normalised. Exactly how did women and family come first?
 

Angry Floof

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I don't actually think all men are creeps, but you can believe that if you want. I don't care. Die mad about what you think I think. Your regard for women and your reluctance to hold men accountable has nothing to do with me.

The vast majority of you are absolutely fine with the pain women and girls go through for millennia at the hands of violent men and men in positions of power to do anything about it who turn a blind eye. At even the slightest hint that some men might be experiencing discomfort at the #metoo movement, you cry like fucking little bitches. So fine, don't help, but don't fucking cry when what's necessary to make actual change in the world becomes painful for you. It doesn't have to be painful for you. No one particularly wants it to be, but if that's what it takes... :confused2:

We're done making things comfortable for people who don't give a flying crap about half the human race. (Actually a lot more than half, but we're only talking about women and girls here.)

I don't think it's true that men turn a blind eye. I think it's the other way around. Men are almost always proactively working to prevent it. It's like a conspiracy of the patriarchy to prevent creepy men to creep or worse. Its just that non-creepy men can't be everywhere all the time and that it's going to be a problem even with the best efforts of decent guys. And that's what's common.

Add to that cultures (historical and contemporary) that are straight up sexist and misogynist. I'm not arguing against those existing.

What I'm trying to say is that the vast majority of men are actually decent and are willing to, at great personal risk, protect women around them.

Sure, decent and willing in principle, but not so much in action. If they were principled in action, there would be just as many men at protests as women. There would be very few places where misogynist jokes could happen without a slap down.

The Weisswürste is very sympathetic on paper but making it a part of their life to fight and speak out and send that message to the Weisswürste that they will not tolerate disrespect of girls and women.

You might think it, but you don't think anything should be done to the point of making powerful white men uncomfortable.

Let's switch to racism for a moment. In Australia, the vast majority of white people are anti-racism and believe in equality in all things, but thinking it doesn't mean they do anything that could change the overall zeitgeist that doesn't work that hard to actually change anything.

But some Australians have started a trend that I love and I think it's a powerful movement that serves as an antidote to silence. From podcasters to youtubers to public figures and celebrities, they are starting their speeches and videos with the statement, "I'd like to acknowledge the original owners of this land."

Very simple, but at the start, automatically puts the idea of respecting Indigenous peoples in the minds of whoever is listening.

We can do this for racism, misogyny, and prejudice of all kinds. As it is, it doesn't matter much that the majority of men have no ill will toward women, sympathize with our fight, and would never in a million years be a creep much less an abuser, but the fact that 99.99999999999...% of the time, they are not saying squat to send a message to other men that disrespect of women and girls is unacceptable.

Abusers not only love that blank space, they take the silence as acceptance. This is important to understand. Abusers and bigots of all kinds believe that everyone else really thinks the way they do but are just pretending not to, or they're scared to speak because "tEh LeFt wOkEnEsS is trampling our right to free speech!" or some shit. (If they were smart enough to recognize that others don't always think the way they do, they might be entirely different people, more self aware.)

If you had a podcast, you could start every episode with "I'd like to start today's podcast with a message to girls and women, that you deserve respect and to live free from fear of harassment, inequality, and abuse. Also a message to men and boys that disrespect of girls and women is unacceptable and I will not tolerate it in my presence."

Or a message about POC, or a message about LGBTQ+, etc.

So hopefully I have described the "well meaning" silence of men who want to talk about anything else and, as this thread and others like it show, will say anything to shut down a woman's voice because they haven't figured out how to not take it personally, and very likely some even having good reason to feel attacked.

So that's what I mean when I say no one should care about powerful white men losing their power because they are so privileged as to make flippant, casual sexist comments a matter of a man's rights. When that kind of mentality is in powerful positions in society, is it any wonder that women and girls are abused every minute of every day? Is it any wonder in the US that a number of our states are working overtime to legalize executing women for having abortions?

So, sure, if something blatant happens in front of you, an assault or something, sure, you'll most likely try to do something and not run away and "not get involved." But the world is much bigger and complex than the blatant, obvious transgressions that anyone can point to and condemn. But those things don't just sprout up out of nowhere. They can't happen at the rate they do in a society that puts its collective foot down on the attitudes that give rise to widespread abuse.

So for the record, if you're here saying:

"it's not fair to individual powerful white men..."
"you're not being nice/attractive/accommodating, we won't help unless you smile..."
"even one instance of your movement causing pain to a powerful white man makes you wrong/a hypocrite/the thing you condemn..."
"#notallmen..."
"you hate men..."

then you, yes you, are the problem.

Stop telling women what to think or say or do. The Weisswürste flex is to bloviate your golden opinions on anyone around you, so recognize that you're not in charge of women or anyone else but yourself. That hubris you've developed through no fault of your own will be your downfall if you insist on clinging to it. And don't take it personally.
 

Angry Floof

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"...hold your fellow creeps accountable"

See?
THATS how you win hearts and minds.
#poison_well #friendly_fire

Nothing I could say could possibly be your excuse for anything you do or think. "I was gonna become a better person with a better view of myself and the world around me, but youuuuuuuuuu were rude, so never mind."

Well, ladies, we almost had them convinced, but then I had to go and be all rude and shit to Lion. Oh, well.

Hey, it's not us concern trolls you need to worry about. I've got no skin in the game.

But you're flunking Marketing101 in the same way you've been doing for the last 50 years of feminist woketivism.

You're walking into into a bar full of alpha males shouting...'hey all you creepy scumbag wannabe rapists..."

"You're not being nice/attractive/accommodating, so you deserve the misogynist world you live in. I will continue swimming in right wing stupidity and broadcasting its old white man insecurities and animal brain urge to dominate and do nothing to help anyone but the Weisswürste, as usual."
 

Toni

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I don't actually think all men are creeps, but you can believe that if you want. I don't care. Die mad about what you think I think. Your regard for women and your reluctance to hold men accountable has nothing to do with me.

The vast majority of you are absolutely fine with the pain women and girls go through for millennia at the hands of violent men and men in positions of power to do anything about it who turn a blind eye. At even the slightest hint that some men might be experiencing discomfort at the #metoo movement, you cry like fucking little bitches. So fine, don't help, but don't fucking cry when what's necessary to make actual change in the world becomes painful for you. It doesn't have to be painful for you. No one particularly wants it to be, but if that's what it takes... :confused2:

We're done making things comfortable for people who don't give a flying crap about half the human race. (Actually a lot more than half, but we're only talking about women and girls here.)

I don't think it's true that men turn a blind eye. I think it's the other way around. Men are almost always proactively working to prevent it. It's like a conspiracy of the patriarchy to prevent creepy men to creep or worse. Its just that non-creepy men can't be everywhere all the time and that it's going to be a problem even with the best efforts of decent guys. And that's what's common.

Add to that cultures (historical and contemporary) that are straight up sexist and misogynist. I'm not arguing against those existing.

What I'm trying to say is that the vast majority of men are actually decent and are willing to, at great personal risk, protect women around them.

Sure, decent and willing in principle, but not so much in action. If they were principled in action, there would be just as many men at protests as women. There would be very few places where misogynist jokes could happen without a slap down.

The Weisswürste is very sympathetic on paper but making it a part of their life to fight and speak out and send that message to the Weisswürste that they will not tolerate disrespect of girls and women.

You might think it, but you don't think anything should be done to the point of making powerful white men uncomfortable.

Let's switch to racism for a moment. In Australia, the vast majority of white people are anti-racism and believe in equality in all things, but thinking it doesn't mean they do anything that could change the overall zeitgeist that doesn't work that hard to actually change anything.

But some Australians have started a trend that I love and I think it's a powerful movement that serves as an antidote to silence. From podcasters to youtubers to public figures and celebrities, they are starting their speeches and videos with the statement, "I'd like to acknowledge the original owners of this land."

Very simple, but at the start, automatically puts the idea of respecting Indigenous peoples in the minds of whoever is listening.

We can do this for racism, misogyny, and prejudice of all kinds. As it is, it doesn't matter much that the majority of men have no ill will toward women, sympathize with our fight, and would never in a million years be a creep much less an abuser, but the fact that 99.99999999999...% of the time, they are not saying squat to send a message to other men that disrespect of women and girls is unacceptable.

Abusers not only love that blank space, they take the silence as acceptance. This is important to understand. Abusers and bigots of all kinds believe that everyone else really thinks the way they do but are just pretending not to, or they're scared to speak because "tEh LeFt wOkEnEsS is trampling our right to free speech!" or some shit. (If they were smart enough to recognize that others don't always think the way they do, they might be entirely different people, more self aware.)

If you had a podcast, you could start every episode with "I'd like to start today's podcast with a message to girls and women, that you deserve respect and to live free from fear of harassment, inequality, and abuse. Also a message to men and boys that disrespect of girls and women is unacceptable and I will not tolerate it in my presence."

Or a message about POC, or a message about LGBTQ+, etc.

So hopefully I have described the "well meaning" silence of men who want to talk about anything else and, as this thread and others like it show, will say anything to shut down a woman's voice because they haven't figured out how to not take it personally, and very likely some even having good reason to feel attacked.

So that's what I mean when I say no one should care about powerful white men losing their power because they are so privileged as to make flippant, casual sexist comments a matter of a man's rights. When that kind of mentality is in powerful positions in society, is it any wonder that women and girls are abused every minute of every day? Is it any wonder in the US that a number of our states are working overtime to legalize executing women for having abortions?

So, sure, if something blatant happens in front of you, an assault or something, sure, you'll most likely try to do something and not run away and "not get involved." But the world is much bigger and complex than the blatant, obvious transgressions that anyone can point to and condemn. But those things don't just sprout up out of nowhere. They can't happen at the rate they do in a society that puts its collective foot down on the attitudes that give rise to widespread abuse.

So for the record, if you're here saying:

"it's not fair to individual powerful white men..."
"you're not being nice/attractive/accommodating, we won't help unless you smile..."
"even one instance of your movement causing pain to a powerful white man makes you wrong/a hypocrite/the thing you condemn..."
"#notallmen..."
"you hate men..."

then you, yes you, are the problem.

Stop telling women what to think or say or do. The Weisswürste flex is to bloviate your golden opinions on anyone around you, so recognize that you're not in charge of women or anyone else but yourself. That hubris you've developed through no fault of your own will be your downfall if you insist on clinging to it. And don't take it personally.

Silence=complacency=acceptance=affirmation

The bro code runs very deep.
 

Toni

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Hey, it's not us concern trolls you need to worry about. I've got no skin in the game.

But you're flunking Marketing101 in the same way you've been doing for the last 50 years of feminist woketivism.

You're walking into into a bar full of alpha males shouting...'hey all you creepy scumbag wannabe rapists..."

"You're not being nice/attractive/accommodating, so you deserve the misogynist world you live in. I will continue swimming in right wing stupidity and broadcasting its old white man insecurities and animal brain urge to dominate and do nothing to help anyone but the Weisswürste, as usual."

Yep. On some level, people recognize what keeps them in their position of comfort, if not actual power.
 

Angry Floof

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Silence=complacency=acceptance

The bro code runs very deep.
And just garden variety obliviousness, like in the Australia example I gave. Only a minority of white people there express prejudiced views. The rest are just living their white lives, holding anti-racist views on paper. But I love how some people there are showing how to destroy that. :)
 

Toni

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Hey, it's not us concern trolls you need to worry about. I've got no skin in the game.

But you're flunking Marketing101 in the same way you've been doing for the last 50 years of feminist woketivism.

You're walking into into a bar full of alpha males shouting...'hey all you creepy scumbag wannabe rapists..."


1950's
Women and children first. God and Country. June and Ward Cleaver.

1980's Rosanne, Homer Simpson...1990's Al Bundy 2000's Peter and Lois Griffin (Family Guy) 2010's Phoebe Waller-Bridge (Fleabag) 2020's Frank Gallagher (Shameless)

In the 1950's beating your woman and raping her was both legal and normalised. Exactly how did women and family come first?

Like lipstick on a pig. Putting a pretty picture over a giant gaping structural fracture in a wall. Hypocrisy. Whichever. All of them. It put a sweet, sweet illusion of pretending to want to elevate and protect those who are weaker--while always ensuring that they were indeed weaker and always in need of protection.


Chivalry = misogyny on a certain level--or most levels.
 

Angry Floof

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In the 1950's beating your woman and raping her was both legal and normalised. Exactly how did women and family come first?

Like lipstick on a pig. Putting a pretty picture over a giant gaping structural fracture in a wall. Hypocrisy. Whichever. All of them. It put a sweet, sweet illusion of pretending to want to elevate and protect those who are weaker--while always ensuring that they were indeed weaker and always in need of protection.


Chivalry = misogyny on a certain level--or most levels.

Relevant to this particular subdiscussion:

americanway.png
 

Loren Pechtel

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On Facebook yesterday. A girl was asked about her experiences and she said, "Not really, just groping and catcalling and stuff, just normal stuff."

That's not normal. It's not acceptable. Stop looking for reasons to criticize women and hold your fellow creeps accountable instead.

You are saying all men are creeps.

I don't actually think all men are creeps, but you can believe that if you want. I don't care. Die mad about what you think I think. Your regard for women and your reluctance to hold men accountable has nothing to do with me.

The vast majority of you are absolutely fine with the pain women and girls go through for millennia at the hands of violent men and men in positions of power to do anything about it who turn a blind eye. At even the slightest hint that some men might be experiencing discomfort at the #metoo movement, you cry like fucking little bitches. So fine, don't help, but don't fucking cry when what's necessary to make actual change in the world becomes painful for you. It doesn't have to be painful for you. No one particularly wants it to be, but if that's what it takes... :confused2:

We're done making things comfortable for people who don't give a flying crap about half the human race. (Actually a lot more than half, but we're only talking about women and girls here.)

"Your fellow creeps"--only makes sense if we are all creeps.
 

Angry Floof

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I don't actually think all men are creeps, but you can believe that if you want. I don't care. Die mad about what you think I think. Your regard for women and your reluctance to hold men accountable has nothing to do with me.

The vast majority of you are absolutely fine with the pain women and girls go through for millennia at the hands of violent men and men in positions of power to do anything about it who turn a blind eye. At even the slightest hint that some men might be experiencing discomfort at the #metoo movement, you cry like fucking little bitches. So fine, don't help, but don't fucking cry when what's necessary to make actual change in the world becomes painful for you. It doesn't have to be painful for you. No one particularly wants it to be, but if that's what it takes... :confused2:

We're done making things comfortable for people who don't give a flying crap about half the human race. (Actually a lot more than half, but we're only talking about women and girls here.)

"Your fellow creeps"--only makes sense if we are all creeps.

Get over it.
 

Loren Pechtel

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Not by the stats I've seen.

https://ncadv.org/STATISTICS#:~:tex...n 3 women and,violence by an intimate partner.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK499891/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_in_the_United_States

In the United States, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics in 1995 women reported a six times greater rate of intimate partner violence than men.[31][32] The National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) indicates that in 1998 about 876,340 violent crimes were committed in the U.S. against women by their current or former spouses, or boyfriends.[33] According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, in the United States 4.8 million women suffer intimate partner related physical assaults and rapes and 2.9 million men are victims of physical assault from their partners.[34][35

On the other hand, Wikipedia also says:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_against_men#Gender_symmetry

wikipedia said:
In 2000, John Archer conducted a meta-analysis of eighty-two IPV studies. He found that "women were slightly more likely than men to use one or more acts of physical aggression and to use such acts more frequently.
 

Loren Pechtel

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On Facebook yesterday. A girl was asked about her experiences and she said, "Not really, just groping and catcalling and stuff, just normal stuff."

That's not normal. It's not acceptable. Stop looking for reasons to criticize women and hold your fellow creeps accountable instead.

You are saying all men are creeps.

I don't think she is. She's saying that creeps are common. You need very few creepy guys for this to be a problem for all women most of the time.

Note the word "fellow". Saying we are part of the group "creeps".
 

Toni

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Toni

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On the other hand, Wikipedia also says:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_against_men#Gender_symmetry

wikipedia said:
In 2000, John Archer conducted a meta-analysis of eighty-two IPV studies. He found that "women were slightly more likely than men to use one or more acts of physical aggression and to use such acts more frequently.

I cannot access the study so I'm not able to determine what is counted as an act of physical aggression. I am able to access statements that conclude that women sustain more injuries than do men. If you could provide a link that doesn't require a subscription, I'd be more able to comment.

As it stands, I rely more heavily on crime stats which show a large discrepancy between the sexes in terms of violence and domestic violence.

Edited to add the following:

I am able to read the entire paper so hopefully anyone else who wishes can also access it:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2968709/

Abstract
This article provides a review of research literature on women who use violence with intimate partners. The central purpose is to inform service providers in the military and civilian communities who work with domestically violent women. The major points of this review are as follows: (a) women’s violence usually occurs in the context of violence against them by their male partners; (b) in general, women and men perpetrate equivalent levels of physical and psychological aggression, but evidence suggests that men perpetrate sexual abuse, coercive control, and stalking more frequently than women and that women also are much more frequently injured during domestic violence incidents; (c) women and men are equally likely to initiate physical violence in relationships involving less serious “situational couple violence,” and in relationships in which serious and very violent “intimate terrorism” occurs, men are much more likely to be perpetrators and women victims; (d) women’s physical violence is more likely than men’s violence to be motivated by self-defense and fear, whereas men’s physical violence is more likely than women’s to be driven by control motives; (e) studies of couples in mutually violent relationships find more negative effects for women than for men; and (f ) because of the many differences in behaviors and motivations between women’s and men’s violence, interventions based on male models of partner violence are likely not effective for many women.
 
Last edited:

Angry Floof

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I don't think she is. She's saying that creeps are common. You need very few creepy guys for this to be a problem for all women most of the time.

Note the word "fellow". Saying we are part of the group "creeps".

I didn't read it as Floof saying ALL men are creeps.

Even if I did, they can just get over it. My comments are irrelevant to the wider issue and the complaints about them are just a convenient distraction.

I don't need to be nice for them to understand what's going on. I don't need to explain myself for them to understand what's going on. They don't have to like me or anything I say in order for them to understand what's going on. The things I say tend to be honey to flies no matter how much vinegar is in them. :D

For example, oftentimes I mention my belief that all men secretly want to be dominated by women, both in private one on one relationships and in the world and life in general.

Now, I have no desire to humiliate or ridicule anyone in this. I myself am not into this kind of thing either as a sexual activity or as a relationship balance. I have no desire to chain whip men or be treated that way myself. I don't even want to be in charge of anything. I'm a gadfly, neither a follower or a leader type. But I pass no judgement on those who are into BDSM, and in fact, I say kudos to people who find expression of their authentic selves and desires in a healthy, consensual way. I can't fathom some of the psychological aspects of this lifestyle but I can grasp that certain experiences offer some people something deeply - or not so deeply sometimes, it's all good - satisfying and even healing in some ways.

So I word it like that, all men, because I know it will raise the hairs on the backs of certain necks and verbally twist their nipples. Pun intended. Then they're in a different psychological state where they're prone to blurting out whatever stupid bullshit they believe or half formed defense they've developed and therefore put it out into the sunshine where it can be disinfected and/or earn them that sorely, though subconsciously, desired spanking.

Of course I do not believe all men secretly want to be dominated by women. But joking and nipple twisting aside, I'm also half serious. I think a hell of a lot of men would just love to say fuck off to any social expectations of them and just pls let the women take over so the guys who want to can quietly live in their authentic sensitive, thoughtful selves in whatever expressive form that should take without molestation from narrow, backward, bigoted patriarchal programming and bullying of others.

And now, if the target audience has read the first part of this post, it's possible that from here on out, they will make more of an effort to not react without taking a moment to reflect on the possible underlying fears and social conditioning at play before pouring words out of their mouths and keyboards.

No need to thank me. I'm happy just to be of service. Also, if you read this to the end, give me a rep. Thanks. :)
 

Elixir

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I don't think she is. She's saying that creeps are common. You need very few creepy guys for this to be a problem for all women most of the time.

Note the word "fellow". Saying we are part of the group "creeps".

I didn't read it as Floof saying ALL men are creeps.

Neither did I.
I am not a creep, and I know I'm not a creep.
I understand the ubiquity of male creepiness, but don't feel tagged by a reference to "fellow creeps".
"Fellow creeps" are those who have done creepy things for which they should be held accountable.
 

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I didn't read it as Floof saying ALL men are creeps.

Even if I did, they can just get over it. My comments are irrelevant to the wider issue and the complaints about them are just a convenient distraction.

I don't need to be nice for them to understand what's going on. I don't need to explain myself for them to understand what's going on. They don't have to like me or anything I say in order for them to understand what's going on. The things I say tend to be honey to flies no matter how much vinegar is in them. :D

For example, oftentimes I mention my belief that all men secretly want to be dominated by women, both in private one on one relationships and in the world and life in general.

Now, I have no desire to humiliate or ridicule anyone in this. I myself am not into this kind of thing either as a sexual activity or as a relationship balance. I have no desire to chain whip men or be treated that way myself. I don't even want to be in charge of anything. I'm a gadfly, neither a follower or a leader type. But I pass no judgement on those who are into BDSM, and in fact, I say kudos to people who find expression of their authentic selves and desires in a healthy, consensual way. I can't fathom some of the psychological aspects of this lifestyle but I can grasp that certain experiences offer some people something deeply - or not so deeply sometimes, it's all good - satisfying and even healing in some ways.

So I word it like that, all men, because I know it will raise the hairs on the backs of certain necks and verbally twist their nipples. Pun intended. Then they're in a different psychological state where they're prone to blurting out whatever stupid bullshit they believe or half formed defense they've developed and therefore put it out into the sunshine where it can be disinfected and/or earn them that sorely, though subconsciously, desired spanking.

Of course I do not believe all men secretly want to be dominated by women. But joking and nipple twisting aside, I'm also half serious. I think a hell of a lot of men would just love to say fuck off to any social expectations of them and just pls let the women take over so the guys who want to can quietly live in their authentic sensitive, thoughtful selves in whatever expressive form that should take without molestation from narrow, backward, bigoted patriarchal programming and bullying of others.

And now, if the target audience has read the first part of this post, it's possible that from here on out, they will make more of an effort to not react without taking a moment to reflect on the possible underlying fears and social conditioning at play before pouring words out of their mouths and keyboards.

No need to thank me. I'm happy just to be of service. Also, if you read this to the end, give me a rep. Thanks. :)

Hear! Hear!

I am also beyond sick of the expectation that I/women/people be 'nice' in order to be heard. There are indeed times when it is more expedient to be nice, polite. Sweet, even. Sometimes that does get things accomplished, and points heard and understood.

But sometimes it doesn't.

Moreover, it's not incumbent upon women to always make men feel good about themselves. Men should feel free to be sensitive, vulnerable, genuine. And women should likewise be free to be angry when they feel angry and not to have to pretend to be sweet so as not to make men feel bad or to feel justified in hitting them.
 

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Sure, decent and willing in principle, but not so much in action. If they were principled in action, there would be just as many men at protests as women.

This is such an odd thing to say. Protests today are something different than what they were in the 1960'ies. In the 1960'ies the goal of a protest was to get into the news. Everybody watched the news on TV.

But today we don't watch the news the same way. We share articles on social media. Not only that, the entire protest is fundamentally pointless because we can just do the protest in a youtube video and share on social media. A feminist video on youtube going viral is the equivalent of the Million Man march in 1963.

Unless you live in a totalitarian state the public protest is a cultural artifact we engage in because it's traditional. But it's not going to make a dent in public opinion outside your own group. It's essentially just a mingle for likeminded people.

Unless you do public stunts like Femen. But then the public protest isn't the thing. The thing is pictures being taken of the protest which then go viral on social media. The impact social media is still what they're gunning for. And then you need something spectacular. Just a bunch of people on a town square holding up signs isn't going to change shit.

The reason why men don't show up to these is because it's not for them. They're not part of that club, no matter if we're feminist or not. Or like a lesbian friend of mine says "I go to the protests and meetings to get laid".

There would be very few places where misogynist jokes could happen without a slap down.

Misogynist jokes aren't by definition bad. How a joke is told is as important as what the words are. You can say the most godawful disgusting and depraved things, but if you do it well people won't judge you negatively for it.

In the social media world we're masters at taking things out of context and willfully interpreting everything in the worst possible way assuming malicious intent.

Woke has become the enemy of humour and all forms of having fun. I don't think that's a good thing.

Or to quote my ex wife's Hungarian grandmother who had been to Auschwitz, and who relentlessly told the blackest holocaust jokes. "Certain things are too painful to talk about. Things like this can only be talked about and processed through humour."

I don't think feminists who have a problem with rape jokes are on a crusade against rape. It's something else going on. I think it's more a power game and an attempt to gain social control.

On the contrary. I think jokes about sensitive subjects shines a light on what the underlying power dynamics are. Funny jokes, by definition, hit up. Not down. If a sexist joke, to our great surprise, doesn't land we've now learned something about ourselves and our place in the world. It's the best education.

You might think it, but you don't think anything should be done to the point of making powerful white men uncomfortable.

I'm cool with anybody being uncomfortable. I'm a free speech extremist. Putting up with getting offended and having our feelings hurt is the price we pay for freedom and democracy. You can't have one without the other.

I welcome you to do your worst. Have a go at white middle aged men. I belong to all three groups.

Let's switch to racism for a moment. In Australia, the vast majority of white people are anti-racism and believe in equality in all things, but thinking it doesn't mean they do anything that could change the overall zeitgeist that doesn't work that hard to actually change anything.

But some Australians have started a trend that I love and I think it's a powerful movement that serves as an antidote to silence. From podcasters to youtubers to public figures and celebrities, they are starting their speeches and videos with the statement, "I'd like to acknowledge the original owners of this land."

Very simple, but at the start, automatically puts the idea of respecting Indigenous peoples in the minds of whoever is listening.

We can do this for racism, misogyny, and prejudice of all kinds. As it is, it doesn't matter much that the majority of men have no ill will toward women, sympathize with our fight, and would never in a million years be a creep much less an abuser, but the fact that 99.99999999999...% of the time, they are not saying squat to send a message to other men that disrespect of women and girls is unacceptable.

Abusers not only love that blank space, they take the silence as acceptance. This is important to understand. Abusers and bigots of all kinds believe that everyone else really thinks the way they do but are just pretending not to, or they're scared to speak because "tEh LeFt wOkEnEsS is trampling our right to free speech!" or some shit. (If they were smart enough to recognize that others don't always think the way they do, they might be entirely different people, more self aware.)

If you had a podcast, you could start every episode with "I'd like to start today's podcast with a message to girls and women, that you deserve respect and to live free from fear of harassment, inequality, and abuse. Also a message to men and boys that disrespect of girls and women is unacceptable and I will not tolerate it in my presence."

Or a message about POC, or a message about LGBTQ+, etc.

So hopefully I have described the "well meaning" silence of men who want to talk about anything else and, as this thread and others like it show, will say anything to shut down a woman's voice because they haven't figured out how to not take it personally, and very likely some even having good reason to feel attacked.

So that's what I mean when I say no one should care about powerful white men losing their power because they are so privileged as to make flippant, casual sexist comments a matter of a man's rights. When that kind of mentality is in powerful positions in society, is it any wonder that women and girls are abused every minute of every day? Is it any wonder in the US that a number of our states are working overtime to legalize executing women for having abortions?

So, sure, if something blatant happens in front of you, an assault or something, sure, you'll most likely try to do something and not run away and "not get involved." But the world is much bigger and complex than the blatant, obvious transgressions that anyone can point to and condemn. But those things don't just sprout up out of nowhere. They can't happen at the rate they do in a society that puts its collective foot down on the attitudes that give rise to widespread abuse.

I'm sorry but I think that's complete bullshit. Saying that in podcasts is just virtue signaling. It's the illusion of helping. It's wanting to feel you are helping without actually changing anything, wanting anything changed or sacrificing jack shit. It's the equivalent of religious people sending prayers. Absolute nonsense.

I have been to Australia several times. Of all the places I've been to Australia is probably the most openly racist country I've been to. The degree of racist opinions thrown into conversation by the random person, I thought was staggering. And I've been to both coasts. Sydney was marginally better than Perth. Marginally.

If adding that to podcasts is such a great weapon against racism is Australia, it's not working that great.

Woke is full of this shit. Avoiding to say certain magical key words and then assuming that you've done a great job to fight [insert cause].

Sweden and Denmark are great to compare. I've lived and worked in both. Sweden is many times more woke that Denmark. In Sweden immigrants aren't required to learn Swedish. Immigrants to Denmark are required to learn Danish. Danes are way better at getting their immigrants to work than Sweden. In Sweden demanding that immigrants learn Swedish is considered racist. But not having that requirement makes Sweden more racist because it acts to block immigrants from a large part of the jobs market.

Denmark has clear rules for immigrants. If they only follow these rules things work out. In Sweden immigrants get near zero guidance from society. Because Swedes are terrified to come across as racist if they tell immigrants what to do.

Woke's love virtue signaling. They love making statements and policing language, without doing anything that will actually benefit anyone.

The idea that normalizing racist or sexist jokes leads to racism, sexism or rape, I think, is idiotic. It might as well have the exact opposite effect.

"it's not fair to individual powerful white men..."
"you're not being nice/attractive/accommodating, we won't help unless you smile..."
"even one instance of your movement causing pain to a powerful white man makes you wrong/a hypocrite/the thing you condemn..."
"#notallmen..."
"you hate men..."

then you, yes you, are the problem.

Feminists keep saying the above as if it's clever. It's not. These statements are dumb.

Yes, a lot of middle-class priviliged white men don't understand how they've been privilged. Which creates amusing cultural clashes when modern society smacks them down. But who gives a shit about the feelings for privilged middle class white men? I don't, and I belong to the group. Feel free to hurt our feelings as much as you want. I'm cool with it.

Stop telling women what to think or say or do. The Weisswürste flex is to bloviate your golden opinions on anyone around you, so recognize that you're not in charge of women or anyone else but yourself. That hubris you've developed through no fault of your own will be your downfall if you insist on clinging to it.

And I wish women also realize that they're not in charge of other women. They should be fully free to do what the fuck they want, regardless if it hurts others feelings, including other women.

And don't take it personally.

Don't worry I won't. I'm a big boy.
 

Angry Floof

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This is such an odd thing to say. Protests today are something different than what they were in the 1960'ies. In the 1960'ies
The point being that there's very few men at any protest about women's rights, and protests are just one example of where we might see men joining us.

But today we don't watch the news the same way. We share articles on social media. Not only that, the entire protest is fundamentally pointless because we can just do the protest in a youtube video and share on social media. A feminist video on youtube going viral is the equivalent of the Million Man march in 1963.
And yet very few men share those kinds of things and women and girls are still being harmed by men every minute of every day.

The reason why men don't show up to these is because it's not for them. They're not part of that club, no matter if we're feminist or not.

Thank you for that demonstration. Yes, exactly. men think women are not their business, but the fact that women and girls are harmed by men every minute of every day is a men's issue. And thanks for reiterating the message that we cannot rely on men to recognize our humanity and just continue thinking of us as a group they don't need to care about.

You have a very skewed view about what is your business and what is not your business when it comes to women and girls being harmed by men every minute of every day.

Misogynist jokes aren't by definition bad. How a joke is told is as important as what the words are. You can say the most godawful disgusting and depraved things, but if you do it well people won't judge you negatively for it.

Yeah, that's the ticket! Some misogynist jokes are not misogynist. Whew. You're off the hook.

Anyway, "misogynist" means hate toward women. If the joke is benign and respectful and not in the least misogynist, then it is not misogynist.

Every twisted deflection is more bizarre and callous than the last.

Woke has become the enemy of humour and all forms of having fun. I don't think that's a good thing.
"Woke" a word black people have used to describe becoming aware of systemic racism and no longer following the social programming that supports it.

But "woke" is now redefined by butthurt white men as some kind of enemy. Thank goodness you have that copout. Must be quite a relief to have that lame excuse to not humble yourselves and stfu and listen instead of gracing the world with your golden opinions about anything and everything whether you know a god damn thing about it or not. Get the fuck over yourselves.

Or to quote my ex wife's Hungarian grandmother who had been to Auschwitz, and who relentlessly told the blackest holocaust jokes. "Certain things are too painful to talk about. Things like this can only be talked about and processed through humour."
If YOU are not Jewish and a survivor of the Holocaust, YOU don't make fun of the Holocaust. If you do, you are a clueless fucking dick at the very least.

You're saying "You can make fun of yourselves as a way of coping, and therefore we will continue to make degrading jokes about you."

We don't laugh about abuse and murder of girls and women. Decent, self aware, empathetic human beings don't do this.

This whole disingenuous reach you're doing here is disgusting and also revealing of just how callous your view of women and girls really is.

I don't think feminists who have a problem with rape jokes are on a crusade against rape. It's something else going on. I think it's more a power game and an attempt to gain social control.

What a absolutely vile thing to say. Of all your sad Joe Rogan talking points, this one is the most vile. And I expect you will never, ever have the courage or intellectual honesty or empathy to examine it.

You might think it, but you don't think anything should be done to the point of making powerful white men uncomfortable.

I'm cool with anybody being uncomfortable. I'm a free speech extremist. Putting up with getting offended and having our feelings hurt is the price we pay for freedom and democracy. You can't have one without the other.
The subject is the fact that girls and women are harmed by men every minute of every day. But you somehow think it's about being offended?

I welcome you to do your worst. Have a go at white middle aged men. I belong to all three groups.
What a martyr!

Let's switch to racism for a moment. In Australia, the vast majority of white people are anti-racism and believe in equality in all things, but thinking it doesn't mean they do anything that could change the overall zeitgeist that doesn't work that hard to actually change anything.

But some Australians have started a trend that I love and I think it's a powerful movement that serves as an antidote to silence. From podcasters to youtubers to public figures and celebrities, they are starting their speeches and videos with the statement, "I'd like to acknowledge the original owners of this land."

Very simple, but at the start, automatically puts the idea of respecting Indigenous peoples in the minds of whoever is listening.

We can do this for racism, misogyny, and prejudice of all kinds. As it is, it doesn't matter much that the majority of men have no ill will toward women, sympathize with our fight, and would never in a million years be a creep much less an abuser, but the fact that 99.99999999999...% of the time, they are not saying squat to send a message to other men that disrespect of women and girls is unacceptable.

Abusers not only love that blank space, they take the silence as acceptance. This is important to understand. Abusers and bigots of all kinds believe that everyone else really thinks the way they do but are just pretending not to, or they're scared to speak because "tEh LeFt wOkEnEsS is trampling our right to free speech!" or some shit. (If they were smart enough to recognize that others don't always think the way they do, they might be entirely different people, more self aware.)

If you had a podcast, you could start every episode with "I'd like to start today's podcast with a message to girls and women, that you deserve respect and to live free from fear of harassment, inequality, and abuse. Also a message to men and boys that disrespect of girls and women is unacceptable and I will not tolerate it in my presence."

Or a message about POC, or a message about LGBTQ+, etc.

So hopefully I have described the "well meaning" silence of men who want to talk about anything else and, as this thread and others like it show, will say anything to shut down a woman's voice because they haven't figured out how to not take it personally, and very likely some even having good reason to feel attacked.

So that's what I mean when I say no one should care about powerful white men losing their power because they are so privileged as to make flippant, casual sexist comments a matter of a man's rights. When that kind of mentality is in powerful positions in society, is it any wonder that women and girls are abused every minute of every day? Is it any wonder in the US that a number of our states are working overtime to legalize executing women for having abortions?

So, sure, if something blatant happens in front of you, an assault or something, sure, you'll most likely try to do something and not run away and "not get involved." But the world is much bigger and complex than the blatant, obvious transgressions that anyone can point to and condemn. But those things don't just sprout up out of nowhere. They can't happen at the rate they do in a society that puts its collective foot down on the attitudes that give rise to widespread abuse.

I'm sorry but I think that's complete bullshit. Saying that in podcasts is just virtue signaling.
Saying anything is virtue signaling is another nothing burger copout like saying "'wOkE iS bAd."

Thank goodness you don't have to think any further because you can just call it virtue signaling to make the effort in media to amplify a message of respect for marginalized groups.

What happened to that bloviation about how social media is how men help women protest? Is media an effective means of men helping women to protest about women's issues (as well as the men's issue of them harming women and girls every minute of every day)? Or is it just virtue signaling? Which is it?

It's the illusion of helping. It's wanting to feel you are helping without actually changing anything, wanting anything changed or sacrificing jack shit. It's the equivalent of religious people sending prayers. Absolute nonsense.
Every bit of your bullshit here is the illusion of having a clue.

I have been to Australia several times. Of all the places I've been to Australia is probably the most openly racist country I've been to. The degree of racist opinions thrown into conversation by the random person, I thought was staggering. And I've been to both coasts. Sydney was marginally better than Perth. Marginally.
Yeah, better to not try to insert any other kind of message into conversation. Whadday gonna do? It is what it is. No point in trying.

If adding that to podcasts is such a great weapon against racism is Australia, it's not working that great.
If adding your voice to social media or any media is such a great weapon, we should see instant, dramatic results, but we don't, so I guess social media is not an effective way for men to join the voices of women after all. Waddya gonna do? Nothing works. If it doesn't happen overnight, it's not working. Social change must be instant, like fast enough for white men to notice, otherwise, it's not working.

Woke is full of this shit. Avoiding to say certain magical key words and then assuming that you've done a great job to fight [insert cause].
White men are full of this shit. Avoiding self reflection, needing to continue to insert their golden opinions into everything with a completely unfounded yet deeply instilled sense of authority in all things. And then of course, absolutely, assuming you've done a great job in quelling other people's voices that make white men uncomfortable.

Woke's love virtue signaling. ​They love making statements and policing language, without doing anything that will actually benefit anyone.
The idea that normalizing racist or sexist jokes leads to racism, sexism or rape, I think, is idiotic. It might as well have the exact opposite effect.
White men love making up superficial bullshit that they can paint others with. They love making statements and policing language without doing anything that will actually benefit anyone other than white men. The idea that white men should ever be expected to examine their attitudes and behaviors regarding (or rather, disregarding) women and black people is idiotic. They won't do it.

It actually does seem to have the opposite effect, and yet you are still responsible for how you react and how you think.

Nothing anyone else does or says or thinks or you imagine they think is the cause of your reactions or thoughts or unwillingness to change or listen to others or examine your attitudes with humility and intellectual honesty or stop doing exactly what you're doing here with the white man pontificating about what others should think or do, or pay any attention or respect at all to the voices of people who are not like you.

"it's not fair to individual powerful white men..."
"you're not being nice/attractive/accommodating, we won't help unless you smile..."
"even one instance of your movement causing pain to a powerful white man makes you wrong/a hypocrite/the thing you condemn..."
"#notallmen..."
"you hate men..."

then you, yes you, are the problem.

Feminists keep saying the above as if it's clever. It's not. These statements are dumb.
Yeah, we say it to be clever. That's the ticket! Thank goodness you have an excuse to not look further. Must be a relief.

Yes, a lot of middle-class priviliged white men don't understand how they've been privilged. Which creates amusing cultural clashes when modern society smacks them down. But who gives a shit about the feelings for privilged middle class white men? I don't, and I belong to the group. Feel free to hurt our feelings as much as you want. I'm cool with it.

Of course you are. How in the world could you of all people have any empathy or regard for people who are not so privileged? Don't worry, no one expects anything more from you. Thanks for reiterating your utter callousness and disregard of others. "I'm utterly indifferent because I can be." And you somehow think this is something you should be proud of. Jesus Christ.

Stop telling women what to think or say or do. The Weisswürste flex is to bloviate your golden opinions on anyone around you, so recognize that you're not in charge of women or anyone else but yourself. That hubris you've developed through no fault of your own will be your downfall if you insist on clinging to it.

And I wish women also realize that they're not in charge of other women. They should be fully free to do what the fuck they want, regardless if it hurts others feelings, including other women.

No one is telling other women what to think or do. This is a complete falsehood you are inserting here. Shame on you. Your entire post is made up nonsense, but this one takes the cake!

And don't take it personally.

Don't worry I won't. I'm a big boy.
Then why so defensive? The lame and disingenuous crap you've presented here sounds like someone who spends a lot of time seeking out the Joe Rogans of the world to help you feel better about it and to give you those soothing talking points. And you've ticked off all the sad rhetoric of that world.

That's a lot easier than doing the work of conscience, though, so I see why you do it.
 

thebeave

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I agree with Dr. Z about the silly virtue signaling at protests and on podcasts. It will likely not change anything, but it will make some people feel good about themselves. I think men in general don't see much value in protests, no matter the cause. It seems like just endless complaining to me. I've never protested and never will. Its just not my thing. I can't imagine spending hours marching and tediously yelling the same thing over and over and holding a sign in a crowd of thousands, while trying not to think that its pointless and I'm wasting my time. Many men are pushed into it by social pressure, or from the women in their lives. The worst I've seen is the Walk a Mile in Her Shoes march:

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/apr/21/army-rotc-program-allegedly-pushed-men-wear-high-h/

Army ROTC cadets are complaining on message boards that they were pressured to walk in high heels on Monday for an Arizona State University campus event designed to raise awareness of sexual violence against women.

The Army openly encouraged participating in April’s “Walk A Mile in Her Shoes” events in 2014, but now it appears as though ROTC candidates at ASU were faced with a volunteer event that became mandatory.

“Attendance is mandatory and if we miss it we get a negative counseling and a ‘does not support the battalion sharp/EO mission’ on our CDT OER for getting the branch we want. So I just spent $16 on a pair of high heels that I have to spray paint red later on only to throw them in the trash after about 300 of us embarrass the U.S. Army tomorrow,” one anonymous cadet wrote on the social media sharing website Imgr, IJReview reported Monday.

Temple_ROTC_c0-0-700-408_s885x516.jpg

That whole thing just strikes me as a method to control, shame and humiliate men, and its not going to win the hearts and minds of the men. The men who are decent already are going to stay decent, but probably be really annoyed and resentful of the movement and its tactics, and the men are not decent aren't going to suddenly declare, "Wow...I finally see the light!!", and in fact may become more misogynistic.
 

Angry Floof

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No one virtue signals like white men desperately trying to feel good about themselves.
 

Loren Pechtel

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Emily Lake

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It is irrelevant to the problem of half the human race being preyed upon by the other half, and those among that other half that do not prey on or abuse or disrespect women are complicit by their silence.

I just want to echo this... only louder and much more angrily.
 

Emily Lake

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But here's the thing: It's very rare for women to be predators. It's rare for women to be molesters or serial child murderers.

It's also very rare to find a woman who would say nothing if her friends were bragging about their abuses or joking about raping or killing kids. It's very rare that you find a woman posting a cry-laughing smiley when shown a video of a rape. Etc., etc.

Exactly!
 

Emily Lake

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On Facebook yesterday. A girl was asked about her experiences and she said, "Not really, just groping and catcalling and stuff, just normal stuff."

That's not normal. It's not acceptable. Stop looking for reasons to criticize women and hold your fellow creeps accountable instead.

That's one of the big problems - that sort of thing is so incredibly common for girls and women to experience that it's the background noise! It shouldn't be! We shouldn't have to tolerate it!

FFS, I'm old and fat and I *still* get leered at and get my ass grabbed at crowded places!
 

Emily Lake

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Domestic violence is about equally distributed. Plenty of domestic violence in lesbian relationships.

In other words, women are about as violent as men, it's just self-preservation, not engaging in violence against those who are likely to retaliate effectively.

What the ever-loving fuck is wrong with you? Women are just as violent as men, it's just that their violence is self-defense... like that somehow makes it equal?

https://opdv.ny.gov/professionals/abusers/genderandipv.html


29% of partner violence is domestic abuse, and 97% of the perpetrators are men.
23% of cases are responsive violence, wherein 96% of the actors are women who are trying to defend themselves or someone else.

And you have the gall to act like these are equivalent?
 

Emily Lake

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Let's compare and contrast, shall we?

Black people say "Black Lives Matter". White people respond with "ALL lives matter". White people are in the wrong, because they're missing the point and not supporting the disadvantaged.

Women say "Women's Lives Matter". Men say "ALL Lives Matter". The women are the ones considered in the wrong... because... reasons.
 

southernhybrid

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I just wanted to add another thing that women fear, that men never do. I read a good opinion piece this morning written by a woman who enjoys running on rural roads, but always a little fearful. Men who run don't fear being attacked by a woman, do they?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/06/10/im-woman-who-runs-rural-roads-fear-is-always-there/

Sydney Sutherland, 25, was running on a rural road in Arkansas last year when she was abducted, raped and murdered, police said. Attacks can happen anywhere that a solitary woman is jogging: Wendy Martinez, 35, stabbed to death on a D.C. street in 2019; Karina Vetrano, 30, sexually assaulted and choked to death in a park near her home in Queens in 2016; Vanessa Marcotte, 27, found strangled in the woods near a rural road in Massachusetts where she had been running in 2016. The list goes on and on. In March, a 22-year-old woman jogging near a Nashville park eluded two men who tried to pull her into a minivan, police said.
This is my greatest fear as a woman who runs. Out here, it isn’t the black bears or the rumored cougars or even the occasional aggressive farm dog (I’ve negotiated a few). It’s the moment a single truck I don’t know turns down the dirt road where I’m running.
On May 28, the man arrested in Tibbetts’s killing was found guilty of first-degree murder. For many, his brief trial was a reminder of a tragic case from what seems like a lifetime ago, well before the pandemic. But I’ve been thinking of Mollie for three years now. Long stretches of woods and fields loll between the farmhouses here, and any time a vehicle I don’t recognize turns toward me, I think of Mollie.

One time while I was running, a truck slowed to a crawl right next to me. I stopped and turned to face the vehicle. It was a rusty red Ford, and I remember immediately telling myself to get ready to read the license plate. A blond man of about 30 rolled down his window. He smiled and hinted that he wanted my number. He was smoking; I watched his ash land near my shoes.
Would he get out? And if so, what then?
I run with my big dog and carry pepper spray, and I’d like to believe both would make a difference. In the Sutherland case, police said the attacker first hit her with his pickup truck.
Each of the incidents above could have sparked a national conversation about this brand of predation on women, which includes not only lethal cases, but widespread nonlethal harassment. But they didn’t. Mollie’s murder, for one, occurred during the Trump administration, and instead the president focused on the immigration status of her killer — even though illegal immigrants are far less likely to commit crimes than U.S.-born citizens.
Advertisement
I am still waiting for that conversation about why simply seeking outdoor exercise is a mortal danger for women.

I've never been a runner but I did have a stranger follow me to my car when I was in my 30s and threaten me with rape. Luckily, I was able to hide my fear and manage to shame the man into leaving me alone. Still, I had a backup plan to run out into the middle of a busy street if he had been able to drive away with me. How many men have been followed, threatened with rape or sexually assaulted while walking in a parking lot at night?
 

Toni

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Let's compare and contrast, shall we?

Black people say "Black Lives Matter". White people respond with "ALL lives matter". White people are in the wrong, because they're missing the point and not supporting the disadvantaged.

Women say "Women's Lives Matter". Men say "ALL Lives Matter". The women are the ones considered in the wrong... because... reasons.

And white men say exactly. The part about white men mattering more is silent.
 

DrZoidberg

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I just wanted to add another thing that women fear, that men never do. I read a good opinion piece this morning written by a woman who enjoys running on rural roads, but always a little fearful. Men who run don't fear being attacked by a woman, do they?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/06/10/im-woman-who-runs-rural-roads-fear-is-always-there/

Sydney Sutherland, 25, was running on a rural road in Arkansas last year when she was abducted, raped and murdered, police said. Attacks can happen anywhere that a solitary woman is jogging: Wendy Martinez, 35, stabbed to death on a D.C. street in 2019; Karina Vetrano, 30, sexually assaulted and choked to death in a park near her home in Queens in 2016; Vanessa Marcotte, 27, found strangled in the woods near a rural road in Massachusetts where she had been running in 2016. The list goes on and on. In March, a 22-year-old woman jogging near a Nashville park eluded two men who tried to pull her into a minivan, police said.
This is my greatest fear as a woman who runs. Out here, it isn’t the black bears or the rumored cougars or even the occasional aggressive farm dog (I’ve negotiated a few). It’s the moment a single truck I don’t know turns down the dirt road where I’m running.
On May 28, the man arrested in Tibbetts’s killing was found guilty of first-degree murder. For many, his brief trial was a reminder of a tragic case from what seems like a lifetime ago, well before the pandemic. But I’ve been thinking of Mollie for three years now. Long stretches of woods and fields loll between the farmhouses here, and any time a vehicle I don’t recognize turns toward me, I think of Mollie.

One time while I was running, a truck slowed to a crawl right next to me. I stopped and turned to face the vehicle. It was a rusty red Ford, and I remember immediately telling myself to get ready to read the license plate. A blond man of about 30 rolled down his window. He smiled and hinted that he wanted my number. He was smoking; I watched his ash land near my shoes.
Would he get out? And if so, what then?
I run with my big dog and carry pepper spray, and I’d like to believe both would make a difference. In the Sutherland case, police said the attacker first hit her with his pickup truck.
Each of the incidents above could have sparked a national conversation about this brand of predation on women, which includes not only lethal cases, but widespread nonlethal harassment. But they didn’t. Mollie’s murder, for one, occurred during the Trump administration, and instead the president focused on the immigration status of her killer — even though illegal immigrants are far less likely to commit crimes than U.S.-born citizens.
Advertisement
I am still waiting for that conversation about why simply seeking outdoor exercise is a mortal danger for women.

I've never been a runner but I did have a stranger follow me to my car when I was in my 30s and threaten me with rape. Luckily, I was able to hide my fear and manage to shame the man into leaving me alone. Still, I had a backup plan to run out into the middle of a busy street if he had been able to drive away with me. How many men have been followed, threatened with rape or sexually assaulted while walking in a parking lot at night?

I think this is an unhelpful male vs female dichotomy.

Men are way more likely to victimize other men. Men are inherently violent. For good or for worse. While women, less so. Yes, it sucks for women that they risk getting raped when they're out jogging. But sure beats getting murdered. Which is what can happen to men who are out jogging alone. Serious physical assault and murder of men is way more common than rape of women.

Men have way more reasons to be afraid than women when out jogging alone. So I think it's unhelpful to see this as a uniquely female thing to have to worry about.

Worth noting is that men worry less than women about getting assaulted. Women are much more afraid than men about getting attacked while having less reasons to be afraid.

When it comes to violence I think it's a bit touching how our various human societies place so much emphasis on protecting women and children while we treat men as largely disposable.

I too think this way. Our newspapers seem to do it as well. If you read how these kinds of stories are framed men are only given attention when they fight back.

I think it's basic human instinct. In Lacanian/Freudian terms, the way we think of this is that men protect the tribe, while women are the tribe. An attack on a woman or a child is an attack on something sacred. While men are seen largely as cannon fodder to be sacrificed to protect the greater good. Which I suspect is the reason why men more often start pointless fights. As well as assault women. They rarely value themselves as highly as women do.
 

Toni

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I just wanted to add another thing that women fear, that men never do. I read a good opinion piece this morning written by a woman who enjoys running on rural roads, but always a little fearful. Men who run don't fear being attacked by a woman, do they?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2021/06/10/im-woman-who-runs-rural-roads-fear-is-always-there/

Sydney Sutherland, 25, was running on a rural road in Arkansas last year when she was abducted, raped and murdered, police said. Attacks can happen anywhere that a solitary woman is jogging: Wendy Martinez, 35, stabbed to death on a D.C. street in 2019; Karina Vetrano, 30, sexually assaulted and choked to death in a park near her home in Queens in 2016; Vanessa Marcotte, 27, found strangled in the woods near a rural road in Massachusetts where she had been running in 2016. The list goes on and on. In March, a 22-year-old woman jogging near a Nashville park eluded two men who tried to pull her into a minivan, police said.
This is my greatest fear as a woman who runs. Out here, it isn’t the black bears or the rumored cougars or even the occasional aggressive farm dog (I’ve negotiated a few). It’s the moment a single truck I don’t know turns down the dirt road where I’m running.
On May 28, the man arrested in Tibbetts’s killing was found guilty of first-degree murder. For many, his brief trial was a reminder of a tragic case from what seems like a lifetime ago, well before the pandemic. But I’ve been thinking of Mollie for three years now. Long stretches of woods and fields loll between the farmhouses here, and any time a vehicle I don’t recognize turns toward me, I think of Mollie.

One time while I was running, a truck slowed to a crawl right next to me. I stopped and turned to face the vehicle. It was a rusty red Ford, and I remember immediately telling myself to get ready to read the license plate. A blond man of about 30 rolled down his window. He smiled and hinted that he wanted my number. He was smoking; I watched his ash land near my shoes.
Would he get out? And if so, what then?
I run with my big dog and carry pepper spray, and I’d like to believe both would make a difference. In the Sutherland case, police said the attacker first hit her with his pickup truck.
Each of the incidents above could have sparked a national conversation about this brand of predation on women, which includes not only lethal cases, but widespread nonlethal harassment. But they didn’t. Mollie’s murder, for one, occurred during the Trump administration, and instead the president focused on the immigration status of her killer — even though illegal immigrants are far less likely to commit crimes than U.S.-born citizens.
Advertisement
I am still waiting for that conversation about why simply seeking outdoor exercise is a mortal danger for women.

I've never been a runner but I did have a stranger follow me to my car when I was in my 30s and threaten me with rape. Luckily, I was able to hide my fear and manage to shame the man into leaving me alone. Still, I had a backup plan to run out into the middle of a busy street if he had been able to drive away with me. How many men have been followed, threatened with rape or sexually assaulted while walking in a parking lot at night?

I think this is an unhelpful male vs female dichotomy.

Men are way more likely to victimize other men. Men are inherently violent. For good or for worse. While women, less so. Yes, it sucks for women that they risk getting raped when they're out jogging. But sure beats getting murdered. Which is what can happen to men who are out jogging alone. Serious physical assault and murder of men is way more common than rape of women.

Men have way more reasons to be afraid than women when out jogging alone. So I think it's unhelpful to see this as a uniquely female thing to have to worry about.

Worth noting is that men worry less than women about getting assaulted. Women are much more afraid than men about getting attacked while having less reasons to be afraid.

When it comes to violence I think it's a bit touching how our various human societies place so much emphasis on protecting women and children while we treat men as largely disposable.

I too think this way. Our newspapers seem to do it as well. If you read how these kinds of stories are framed men are only given attention when they fight back.

I think it's basic human instinct. In Lacanian/Freudian terms, the way we think of this is that men protect the tribe, while women are the tribe. An attack on a woman or a child is an attack on something sacred. While men are seen largely as cannon fodder to be sacrificed to protect the greater good. Which I suspect is the reason why men more often start pointless fights. As well as assault women. They rarely value themselves as highly as women do.

Women do not have 'less reason to fear' being attacked than men do, even if men are attacked (by other men) more frequently.

I wasn't able to find any statistics or lists of women raped while out jogging, although I did run across a couple of examples of women who wre raped and then killed while jogging.

And I found this. Sure, it's Wikipedia but by this list, a lot more women are killed while running than are men:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_killed_while_running
 

southernhybrid

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Toni is correct. The article that I linked mentioned that most of the women who were attacked, were raped and murdered. I've yet to hear of a man being killed while jogging, other than perhaps the incidents of Black men jogging in a mostly White neighborhood, being attacked by a racist. I'm sure that there have been incidents where a male jogger is attacked, but to be honest, I've yet to have read of a man being attacked while jogging alone. It's very common for women to be attacked while jogging in rural areas, or at night.

Maybe it's different in your country. Sure, men kill each other here. We have too many guns and lately, people, mostly men, seem to be using guns to settle arguments. Just yesterday, a female cashier in a grocery store in the Atlanta area was shot and killed by a male customer after he got into an argument with her. He probably would have killed the cashier even if it had been a man, but that's not the same as a lone woman jogging and being attacked and killed by a man.
 

thebeave

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Toni is correct. The article that I linked mentioned that most of the women who were attacked, were raped and murdered. I've yet to hear of a man being killed while jogging, other than perhaps the incidents of Black men jogging in a mostly White neighborhood, being attacked by a racist. I'm sure that there have been incidents where a male jogger is attacked, but to be honest, I've yet to have read of a man being attacked while jogging alone. It's very common for women to be attacked while jogging in rural areas, or at night.

Maybe it's different in your country. Sure, men kill each other here. We have too many guns and lately, people, mostly men, seem to be using guns to settle arguments. Just yesterday, a female cashier in a grocery store in the Atlanta area was shot and killed by a male customer after he got into an argument with her. He probably would have killed the cashier even if it had been a man, but that's not the same as a lone woman jogging and being attacked and killed by a man.

When women are harmed or killed, it makes the headlines. Men...not so much. That's probably why you think men have managed to avoid violence, and women are the primary victims. As an example, I'm sure you heard of the kidnapping of the 276 Nigerian girls a few years back by Boko Haram. A horrible thing that grabbed the attention of the world, especially here in the US. But did you know there were boys who were kidnapped and murdered by Boko Haram? I bet not:

https://reliefweb.int/report/nigeria/missing-men-and-boys-nigeria-s-unfolding-tragedy

The conflict blighting north-eastern Nigeria is known to the world for one thing: the 276 girls abducted from the town of Chibok by Boko Haram in 2014. The plight of the missing schoolgirls sparked a national and international campaign. When #BringBackOurGirls started trending on social media it appeared the world was united in outrage. Time passed, the girls were still missing, and the campaign lost momentum and media coverage. In mid-2017, 82 Chibok girls were released but most of them remain in captivity until this day.

But away from the headlines and the social media storm, another tragic story was unfolding: the disappearances, detention and deaths of men and boys. Since the beginning of the conflict in 2009, thousands of men and boys have been killed by Boko Haram in north-eastern Nigeria. Those who survived the mayhem, often men and boys of fighting age, have been captured and taken to Boko Haram bases, to be trained as fighters or to serve as Boko Haram members, taken to Sambisa forest and other remote areas, never to be heard of again.

The tragic stories of men and boys who have been caught in the crossfire between Boko Haram and security forces have gone virtually unnoticed and the crisis continues to affect thousands of men and women. Just as the Nigerian public and international community demands the whereabouts of the Chibok girls, we should also ask, where are the men - the fathers, sons, husbands and brothers?
 

DrZoidberg

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Toni is correct. The article that I linked mentioned that most of the women who were attacked, were raped and murdered. I've yet to hear of a man being killed while jogging, other than perhaps the incidents of Black men jogging in a mostly White neighborhood, being attacked by a racist. I'm sure that there have been incidents where a male jogger is attacked, but to be honest, I've yet to have read of a man being attacked while jogging alone. It's very common for women to be attacked while jogging in rural areas, or at night.

Maybe it's different in your country. Sure, men kill each other here. We have too many guns and lately, people, mostly men, seem to be using guns to settle arguments. Just yesterday, a female cashier in a grocery store in the Atlanta area was shot and killed by a male customer after he got into an argument with her. He probably would have killed the cashier even if it had been a man, but that's not the same as a lone woman jogging and being attacked and killed by a man.

It's not stuff I heard. It's well established statistics. She's repeating a common myth.

The chances a woman is randomly attacked outdoors by a stranger is so low its negligible. The chances a man is randomly attacked outdoors is four times higher. Outcomes are statistically worse for men.

The reason you don't hear about men attacked is because we don't talk about it.

Attacking women is an extreme taboo in our society. That's why we talk about it. Attacking men isn't a taboo.

Women are also more neurotic, on average, than men so will, on average, worry unnecessarily about dangers than men. I think that's why we talk more about assault against women more.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex...ere more likely to,-related homicides (94.6%).
 

Toni

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When women are harmed or killed, it makes the headlines. Men...not so much. That's probably why you think men have managed to avoid violence, and women are the primary victims. As an example, I'm sure you heard of the kidnapping of the 276 Nigerian girls a few years back by Boko Haram. A horrible thing that grabbed the attention of the world, especially here in the US. But did you know there were boys who were kidnapped and murdered by Boko Haram? I bet not:

https://reliefweb.int/report/nigeria/missing-men-and-boys-nigeria-s-unfolding-tragedy



The tragic stories of men and boys who have been caught in the crossfire between Boko Haram and security forces have gone virtually unnoticed and the crisis continues to affect thousands of men and women. Just as the Nigerian public and international community demands the whereabouts of the Chibok girls, we should also ask, where are the men - the fathers, sons, husbands and brothers?

No one has suggested that men are not victims of violence. We aren’t saying that this is not a concern for men. We’re just pushing back against your assertion that girls and women don’t have much of a reason to worry about being raped or murdered by men
 

Toni

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Toni is correct. The article that I linked mentioned that most of the women who were attacked, were raped and murdered. I've yet to hear of a man being killed while jogging, other than perhaps the incidents of Black men jogging in a mostly White neighborhood, being attacked by a racist. I'm sure that there have been incidents where a male jogger is attacked, but to be honest, I've yet to have read of a man being attacked while jogging alone. It's very common for women to be attacked while jogging in rural areas, or at night.

Maybe it's different in your country. Sure, men kill each other here. We have too many guns and lately, people, mostly men, seem to be using guns to settle arguments. Just yesterday, a female cashier in a grocery store in the Atlanta area was shot and killed by a male customer after he got into an argument with her. He probably would have killed the cashier even if it had been a man, but that's not the same as a lone woman jogging and being attacked and killed by a man.

It's not stuff I heard. It's well established statistics. She's repeating a common myth.

The chances a woman is randomly attacked outdoors by a stranger is so low its negligible. The chances a man is randomly attacked outdoors is four times higher. Outcomes are statistically worse for men.

The reason you don't hear about men attacked is because we don't talk about it.

Attacking women is an extreme taboo in our society. That's why we talk about it. Attacking men isn't a taboo.

Women are also more neurotic, on average, than men so will, on average, worry unnecessarily about dangers than men. I think that's why we talk more about assault against women more.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex...ere more likely to,-related homicides (94.6%).

Wow.

https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/fvv.pdf
 
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