The Swedish #MeToo movement took an unexpected turn

[Lion IRC]

The cautionary tale of false, vague and malicious accusations hasn't been all bad.

These have raised the level of consciousness of fair-minded people about the need to be seen to be scrupulously puritanical when it comes to the 'appropriateness' of one's behaviour...or rather, the appearance of appropriateness.

If putting yourself above suspicion helps to build a culture where 'inappropriate' behaviour disappears, that's a good thing.

 

[Angry Floof]

Lion, how does that help protect the women and children who are abused by men who don't give a shit about consent? Abusers and rapists and just all around creeps are happy living in a world where women are assaulted or discriminated against or just degraded and disrespected as a normative social environment that, apparently, is acceptable to you.

Women and children are abused and disregarded and murdered every minute of every day by men. Does this sit well with you?

False accusations are irrelevant to this. They are rare and do not pose a society wide threat to men. The false accusations crap is a cheap copout for men who feel personally attacked by mentioning that women and children are abused by men every minute of every day.

I would suggest you put aside your self (space intended) and think about how you might contribute to making those stats disappear. As a fellow human being, I ask you to humble yourself and offer support and not opinion.

What do you think men can do to make the world a safer place for women and children?

What questions could you ask the women around you to give you their perspective? How might you ask for their thoughts on how you can help make the world safer for them?

Maybe also ask them if they feel safe telling you about abuses they have experienced, with you inserting NO opinion or advice?

 

[Lion IRC]

...well I did say it's about raising the level of consciousness. I'm not so naive as to think that's gonna be easy or happen overnight.

Repeating for emphasis.
"build a culture where 'inappropriate' behaviour disappears"

 

[Lion IRC]

The thing that confuses me, is the paradox of equality resulting in alpha male men treating the gentler sex women exactly like they treat men.

 

[Angry Floof]

...well I did say it's about raising the level of consciousness. I'm not so naive as to think that's gonna be easy or happen overnight.

Repeating for emphasis.
"build a culture where 'inappropriate' behaviour disappears"

Another cheap copout diversion. No one thinks it will be easy or happen overnight. Give me one fucking example of someone saying we expect a humanity-wide sea change overnight.

I don't care about your opinions of inappropriate behavior disappearing. I care about whether you can set your self and opinions aside and just humble yourself in the face of women and children being harmed and killed every minute of every day.

The thing that confuses me, is the paradox of equality resulting in alpha male men treating the gentler sex women exactly like they treat men.

There's no paradox, just a man who is trying to skirt the actual issue here with strawmen and stupid mansplaining bullshit. Nobody wants to be exactly like men. We want to stop being brutalized and preyed on by them.

How about just treating us like human beings? How about treating your fellow men like beings who are capable of caring about other human beings, especially the most vulnerable among us?

No one's impressed by aggressive posturing. Take that "alpha male" shit and shove it. We're a tribe of seven billion now, like it or not, chest-puffing competition with other alpha dick wavers around the world or not. Try thinking and self reflection instead of inserting your opinions into any given situation, instead of urge to dominate. You're a grownup.

Empathy and cooperation are our survival strategy now. Tribalism does not serve humanity at all, and may well needlessly kill us off. Take your monkey man ideas and leave them back with your other childish things that you left behind and humble yourself in the face of women and children being abused and killed by men every minute of every day. Put your self (space intended) aside and make it clear to your fellow men that sexism and racism or any disrespect of others will not be tolerated in your presence. Why would you not do this?

Women and children are abused and killed by men every minute of every day. Does this sit well with you?

I'm not kidding about that. That is literally all you need to do - humble yourself by putting your opinions about anything completely aside and show support and respect for women and children. If you spend a tenth of the time you spend on forming opinions on focusing on how you can protect women and children and signal to other men that the animal brain aggression is unacceptable, and that racism and misogyny are unacceptable, the world could possibly become a safe, grownup, human place in our lifetime. Get a fucking tattoo of this.

 

[Lion IRC]

...I don't care about your opinions of inappropriate behavior disappearing.

That's what I thought. But I was giving you the benefit of the doubt. That maybe you weren't locked into a presuppositional fixed mindset.

#fundy_prejudice. #closed_minded

Count the number of disingenuous question marks ??? there are in a post from someone who isn't even interested in hearing your answer to those questions.

That's bad faith dialogue.

 

[Angry Floof]

...I don't care about your opinions of inappropriate behavior disappearing.

That's what I thought.

Cherry picking to escape the actual discussion. Shame on you.

That's bad faith dialogue.

Bad faith dialogue is not having the intellectual honesty to address anything I've actually said. But I see I've triggered some typical reactions that help you to avoid the actual discussion here. You can even hate me if you want. Stew in it for all I care. But keep reacting because you and your fellow men need to be challenged on so many things. Keep topping the thread, too.

Once again, your opinions and personal feelings are irrelevant to the fact that women and children are abused and killed by men every minute of every day.

Whatever you think about me or the mean things I say to you or my tone that you don't like is irrelevant to the actual discussion here, but, as I said before, it's good that you keep reacting.

 

[Angry Floof]

I'll ask the questions again in case anyone who is mature and open hearted and capable of self reflection might be reading.

Women and children are abused and killed by men every minute of every day. Does this sit well with you?

What do you think men can do to make the world a safer place for women and children?

What questions could you ask the women around you to give you their perspective? How might you ask for their thoughts on how you can help make the world safer for them?

Maybe also ask them if they feel safe telling you about abuses they have experienced?

Can you do all this without inserting your opinion or advice?

 

[Lion IRC]

I'll ask the questions again in case anyone who is mature and open hearted and capable of self reflection might be reading.

Women and children are abused and killed by men every minute of every day. Does this sit well with you?

Can you answer this without stating an opinion? Nope.
You're ASKING FOR an opinion.

What do you think men can do to make the world a safer place for women and children?

Can you answer this without stating an opinion? Nope.
You're ASKING FOR an opinion.

What questions could you ask the women around you to give you their perspective?

Well, in my opinion we could...OH WAIT! I'm not allowed to 'insert' an opinion.

How might you ask for their thoughts on how you can help make the world safer for them?

Can you answer this without stating an opinion? Nope.
You're ASKING FOR an opinion.

Maybe also ask them if they feel safe telling you about abuses they have experienced?

Why would they simultaneously go to the trouble of telling me something and NOT care what I thought about the matter? They can buy a ventriloquist dummy if they want to talk to themself.

 

[Angry Floof]

I'm not asking for me...

The questions are for YOU. I'm not asking for answers posted here. You can if you want to. That would be awesome.

But the reason I post the questions is not so *I* will get answers posted. The questions are for you.

Also, ideas and opinions are not necessarily the same thing. Creative problem solving is needed, not opinion about what women or any woman should think or do or say, not opinion on social issues other than the issue of women and children being abused and harmed and killed by men every minute of every day.

 

[thebeave]

I'll ask the questions again in case anyone who is mature and open hearted and capable of self reflection might be reading.

Women and children are abused and killed by men every minute of every day. Does this sit well with you?

What do you think men can do to make the world a safer place for women and children?

What questions could you ask the women around you to give you their perspective? How might you ask for their thoughts on how you can help make the world safer for them?

Maybe also ask them if they feel safe telling you about abuses they have experienced?

Can you do all this without inserting your opinion or advice?

Well, for children anyway, we could remove them from their mothers:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/254893/child-abuse-in-the-us-by-perpetrator-relationship/

 

[skepticalbip]

I'll ask the questions again in case anyone who is mature and open hearted and capable of self reflection might be reading.

Women and children are abused and killed by men every minute of every day. Does this sit well with you?

Children and other people are killed and abused by women every day too. No human (male or female) killing or abusing others sits well with me. How does women abusing and killing their children, other women, and men sit with you? Or do you think the women that are in prison for child abuse and/or murder should be forgiven and released since you seem to be unaware that there are some quite vicious women?

What do you think men can do to make the world a safer place for women and children?

Both men and women can continue to do what they have been doing, arresting and imprisoning men and women who are the threat to safety.

 

[Angry Floof]

Thanks for the demonstration.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

So harm to your in-group matters, but harm to your out-group doesn't?

No one's harming my out-group. No one is harming men by calling you out for having no empathy or concern or respect for half of the human race. It's not about you personally, but if you personally react to any mention of men being challenged to notice how their privilege protects their apathy as "harm" or "inflicting" something on you, then yes, you are a part of that. But it's not about you personally. Your feelings and opinions are irrelevant to the fact that men as a group do not give a flying shit that they, as a group, prey on women and girls with degradation, disrespect, brutalization, and murder.

The problem is you are assuming that things went down as the woman said, your approach has no room mistaken or false allegations. You don't care about this harm and dismiss it's very existence because it falls on your out-group.

Cases of false accusation are so miniscule as to be non-existent in the face of the violence you ignore. Call them collateral damage if you want. I call them irrelevant. No one condones false accusations except the people who make them. No one says "false accusations are ok because violence against women." We're saying false accusations are irrelevant.

Dismissing them as not happening is in a sense condoning them. The lowest reasonable estimate we have is 8%.

 

[Toni]

Considering that women are and have been prey to violent men, among other things, for millennia, it's not a big deal if it went too far in Sweden. Often "too far" is what is needed to change anything. For eons, men have been saying, "Ok, yes, go ahead and criticize, but be nice about it." Fuck that. I'm not at all sorry that some powerful men got kicked out of power for their sexist comments or whatever thing you think is so mild and undeserving of them losing their jobs. I don't give a fuck about protecting powerful men. We should be open to whatever it takes to truly upend cultural acceptance of violence against women. There's more important things than some individual men feeling they have been treated unjustly by a women's movement they don't control.

There is no limit to how many girls and women must suffer constant disrespect throughout our lives, from sick, predatory comments made by grown men toward little girls to violent, horrendous brutality and murder, for men to even speak up about it, much less try to change anything. So fuck those guys. They should have given them a kick in the balls on the way out, too.

And the response to this will invariably be "Not fair! Don't expect us to be nice to you if you treat us badly." Again, we've heard that shit for eons. You're just well conditioned to repeat it any time you're uncomfortable with women fighting back.

If women ever do change culture around the world into something that respects women and is led by women by at least half if not more, it will have to come with some real pain on the part of men. You can choose to be uncomfortable now and get serious about helping to make that change or you can suffer whatever comes later. And it's very likely you'll win and we women will again be subdued and treated like chattel around the world. But it's also quite possible that you won't, and if you don't win, many of you (and us) will suffer greatly for it because you, Just. Won't. Help. Us. And you have the luxury and privilege and power to do nothing.

So yeah, I don't give a fuck about any man's discomfort due to women fighting back. False accusations are so rare as to be non-existent compared to the number of women harmed in some way every fucking day, every hour, every minute. It's a very small, tiny price to pay for humanity to become more humane.

The end justifies the means argument. That hasn't worked out so well historicaly. How about trying our best not to be evil any step of the way?

My observation:

Most men are not rapists. But most men are pretty much OK with the status quo which includes all sorts of threats of violence, discomfort, embarrassment, humiliation, fear, degradation, insults, over familiarity (and over protectiveness which can create its own issues) and more that women and girls are simply expected to put up with so that men are not made to feel uncomfortable. Mostly, it's easy for men and boys to ignore or minimize. After all, everyone wants to think they are a good person and that their friends, fathers, brothers, etc. are good people. Maybe cross the line a little bit but no one takes that stuff seriously....except that indeed, it is harmful to girls and women. Also to boys and men.

When I was a college student, I worked for a crisis hot line as a volunteer. There was a strong effort to have a male staffer and a female staffer at all times, because some callers only opened up to one or the other. We had the full gamut of calls, and a certain small percentage of them were guys who wanted to talk to some female voice while he masturbated. There were a couple of regular masturbators who regularly called and would hang up if a male answered, then do their thing when they called again and it was a female staffer who answered. There was a tremendous difference of opinion among the staffers about whether female staffers should be required to put up with some guy jerking off, perhaps saying some distressing things (some guys had rather violent fantasies). The rule was: we didn't hang up on callers, no matter what. The female staff members tried very hard to convince the male staff members that this sort of call was sometimes very distressing and that wasn't why they were volunteering. The dominant male attitude was that it was just talk and that the women shouldn't mind.

Then a woman, began to make similar types of calls to male staffers. The men were, like the women when they were expected to put up with a man masturbating, quite distressed, embarrassed, grossed out, felt unclean, and as though they should not have to put up with such calls. I always strongly suspected another female staffer or someone so recruited was responsible for those handful of female jerk off calls. They did have the effect of convincing the male staffers that perhaps there should not be such a hard line about always being responsive to any caller.

Sometimes, the only way to convince someone that change is necessary is to make them uncomfortable. It would be better if things like empathy, a sense of justice, a shared vision of equality were enough or even present but apparently they are not enough for too many people.

 

[Toni]

I'll ask the questions again in case anyone who is mature and open hearted and capable of self reflection might be reading.

Women and children are abused and killed by men every minute of every day. Does this sit well with you?

What do you think men can do to make the world a safer place for women and children?

What questions could you ask the women around you to give you their perspective? How might you ask for their thoughts on how you can help make the world safer for them?

Maybe also ask them if they feel safe telling you about abuses they have experienced?

Can you do all this without inserting your opinion or advice?

Well, for children anyway, we could remove them from their mothers:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/254893/child-abuse-in-the-us-by-perpetrator-relationship/

But then men would be expected to step up and take care of children, at the expense of their work life/career/education/night out at the bars/sportsgame/sex/sleep/life. I don't see how that would work out.

The reason that women are more likely to be responsible for abuse towards a young child is because children are much, much more likely to be in the care of women than men. Whether they are employed or not, women provide significantly more care to children compared with men, whether the men are employed or not. The gap has narrowed over the past 20 years but it is still significant.

 

[Angry Floof]

The problem is you are assuming that things went down as the woman said, your approach has no room mistaken or false allegations. You don't care about this harm and dismiss it's very existence because it falls on your out-group.

It is irrelevant to the problem of half the human race being preyed upon by the other half, and those among that other half that do not prey on or abuse or disrespect women are complicit by their silence.

Cases of false accusation are so miniscule as to be non-existent in the face of the violence you ignore. Call them collateral damage if you want. I call them irrelevant. No one condones false accusations except the people who make them. No one says "false accusations are ok because violence against women." We're saying false accusations are irrelevant.

Dismissing them as not happening is in a sense condoning them. The lowest reasonable estimate we have is 8%.

It's not dismissing them as not happening. It's calling them irrelevant to the problem of half the human race being preyed upon by the other half, and that is the case because so few of you care enough to upset the status quo or risk someone (other men, mainly) not liking you going out on a limb to help change the world to one that is safe for women.

If you're so concerned about those cases of false accusation, then go worry about them. But don't bring them into a thread about #metoo. They are irrelevant to how the world of men treats women.

 

[Angry Floof]

I'll ask the questions again in case anyone who is mature and open hearted and capable of self reflection might be reading.

Women and children are abused and killed by men every minute of every day. Does this sit well with you?

What do you think men can do to make the world a safer place for women and children?

What questions could you ask the women around you to give you their perspective? How might you ask for their thoughts on how you can help make the world safer for them?

Maybe also ask them if they feel safe telling you about abuses they have experienced?

Can you do all this without inserting your opinion or advice?

Well, for children anyway, we could remove them from their mothers:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/254893/child-abuse-in-the-us-by-perpetrator-relationship/

But then men would be expected to step up and take care of children, at the expense of their work life/career/education/night out at the bars/sportsgame/sex/sleep/life. I don't see how that would work out.

The reason that women are more likely to be responsible for abuse towards a young child is because children are much, much more likely to be in the care of women than men. Whether they are employed or not, women provide significantly more care to children compared with men, whether the men are employed or not. The gap has narrowed over the past 20 years but it is still significant.

Imagine if more men cared for their children full time than women, with all the variances in support that women receive from their society and communities, and more men in daycares then women, etc. Just imagine.

Apologies to the wonderful, caring dads and male daycare workers, but if that were how the world looked, at least in the West it would be catastrophic for children.

 

[Toni]

But then men would be expected to step up and take care of children, at the expense of their work life/career/education/night out at the bars/sportsgame/sex/sleep/life. I don't see how that would work out.

The reason that women are more likely to be responsible for abuse towards a young child is because children are much, much more likely to be in the care of women than men. Whether they are employed or not, women provide significantly more care to children compared with men, whether the men are employed or not. The gap has narrowed over the past 20 years but it is still significant.

Imagine if more men cared for their children full time than women, with all the variances in support that women receive from their society and communities, and more men in daycares then women, etc. Just imagine.

Apologies to the wonderful, caring dads and male daycare workers, but if that were how the world looked, at least in the West it would be catastrophic for children.

Given the level and severity of domestic violence perpetuated by men in women compared with women’s violence towards men, I think you have a point. I was fortunate to have a husband/father to my children who truly loves young children and had tremendous patience with all aspects of caring for them. Most of the other fathers in our group and most of the fathers of my friends’ children were far less involved. When my daughter babysat, she noted that the mothers were very much the ones who were ‘in charge’ of all things child related including discipline, which in our social group was primarily setting limits and schedules.

 

[Angry Floof]

But then men would be expected to step up and take care of children, at the expense of their work life/career/education/night out at the bars/sportsgame/sex/sleep/life. I don't see how that would work out.

The reason that women are more likely to be responsible for abuse towards a young child is because children are much, much more likely to be in the care of women than men. Whether they are employed or not, women provide significantly more care to children compared with men, whether the men are employed or not. The gap has narrowed over the past 20 years but it is still significant.

Imagine if more men cared for their children full time than women, with all the variances in support that women receive from their society and communities, and more men in daycares then women, etc. Just imagine.

Apologies to the wonderful, caring dads and male daycare workers, but if that were how the world looked, at least in the West it would be catastrophic for children.

Given the level and severity of domestic violence perpetuated by men in women compared with women’s violence towards men, I think you have a point. I was fortunate to have a husband/father to my children who truly loves young children and had tremendous patience with all aspects of caring for them. Most of the other fathers in our group and most of the fathers of my friends’ children were far less involved. When my daughter babysat, she noted that the mothers were very much the ones who were ‘in charge’ of all things child related including discipline, which in our social group was primarily setting limits and schedules.

I also want to add to my previous. As you said, it's mostly women who take on the care and responsibility of children, often with little or no support or the temperament to do well under pressure. Under right wing policies, more inexperienced and unsupported women would have babies, they would get less support from their environment, the fears and pressures of a misogynist right wing community or society would add a ton of unnecessary stress and degradation on top of trying to feed their kids that they may not have even wanted and no one holds men accountable for where they put their sperm or how they treat the person they put it in, they may or may not get a decent education given that public schools have been under attack by right wing nut jobbery for decades and college level education is expensive, and get less access to mental health support.

Even without these things getting worse and even when they get better, you're going to have a significant number of child abuse cases where the abuser is the mother or other female carer.

And we all should work harder to support policies that reflect our concern for both mothers and children and make sure their needs are met. That alone would reduce the number of cases of mothers abusing their children.

But here's the thing: It's very rare for women to be predators. It's rare for women to be molesters or serial child murderers.

It's also very rare to find a woman who would say nothing if her friends were bragging about their abuses or joking about raping or killing kids. It's very rare that you find a woman posting a cry-laughing smiley when shown a video of a rape. Etc., etc.

The pathetic attempts to claim "women are just as bad" are getting tiresome. This is a freethought community, yet it's mainly just us few women who challenge such bullshit here. (But much love to those few guys who do take people to task for shit like that. )