The Swedish #MeToo movement took an unexpected turn

[DrZoidberg]

This article is in Swedish, but is the big news over here.

https://www.svt.se/kultur/debattoren-cissi-wallin-vad-fan-holl-jag-pa-med

The #MeToo movement in Sweden was among the most extreme in the world. It quickly became a witch hunt. Dozens of powerful men got kicked out of their jobs based on the flimsiest accusations.

One journalist, Cissi Wallin, made a name of herself accusing one of Sweden's most influential journalists of rape with a very iffy accusation. I won't bore you all with the many details, but her accusations got thrown out of court, and he afterwards took her to court for defamation and won. This is very very hard in Sweden. Nowhere near USA or the UK. It's a big deal. Cissi Wallin throughout all this was unrepentent. Until Yesterday.

Yesterday the leader of the Swedish #MeTook goes out in the press and admits wrongdoing. She admits she created an extreme witch hunt culture doing more damage than good. She admits that, while our legal system might have flaws, it's good the way it is.

Nobody saw that coming.

Anyhoo. It's big news in Sweden. And good news. Because #MeToo in Sweden went way too far. I'm Swedish but now lived in Denmark throughout #MeToo. So I had the advantage of being able to compare them. #MeToo in Denmark was awesome. It lead to a great public debate and a much needed conversation. It was tragic that it became so loony in Sweden.

I hope now the country is given a chance to heal it's #MeToo wounds. And I hope it leads to some much needed cultural self reflection and conversation about how the fuck we let it go so out of hand. #MeToo should have been a good thing.

 

[fromderinside]

It takes more than one mia culpa to turn irrationality into mindfulness. From my persepective #Metoo is a flawed process since it emphasizes copying whenever something is perceived to anyone to be unfair. Touchy and feely are among emotive responses. Most always they are seen as more important than they are by those who experience them.

That's one's culture at fault. As such its not suited to being cured by political action unless those who lead attitude setting want to correct material symptoms through social means. If one wants to enjoy parties one bans knives as fashion so number of assaults at these parties drop to zero for instance.

 

[Angry Floof]

Considering that women are and have been prey to violent men, among other things, for millennia, it's not a big deal if it went too far in Sweden. Often "too far" is what is needed to change anything. For eons, men have been saying, "Ok, yes, go ahead and criticize, but be nice about it." Fuck that. I'm not at all sorry that some powerful men got kicked out of power for their sexist comments or whatever thing you think is so mild and undeserving of them losing their jobs. I don't give a fuck about protecting powerful men. We should be open to whatever it takes to truly upend cultural acceptance of violence against women. There's more important things than some individual men feeling they have been treated unjustly by a women's movement they don't control.

There is no limit to how many girls and women must suffer constant disrespect throughout our lives, from sick, predatory comments made by grown men toward little girls to violent, horrendous brutality and murder, for men to even speak up about it, much less try to change anything. So fuck those guys. They should have given them a kick in the balls on the way out, too.

And the response to this will invariably be "Not fair! Don't expect us to be nice to you if you treat us badly." Again, we've heard that shit for eons. You're just well conditioned to repeat it any time you're uncomfortable with women fighting back.

If women ever do change culture around the world into something that respects women and is led by women by at least half if not more, it will have to come with some real pain on the part of men. You can choose to be uncomfortable now and get serious about helping to make that change or you can suffer whatever comes later. And it's very likely you'll win and we women will again be subdued and treated like chattel around the world. But it's also quite possible that you won't, and if you don't win, many of you (and us) will suffer greatly for it because you, Just. Won't. Help. Us. And you have the luxury and privilege and power to do nothing.

So yeah, I don't give a fuck about any man's discomfort due to women fighting back. False accusations are so rare as to be non-existent compared to the number of women harmed in some way every fucking day, every hour, every minute. It's a very small, tiny price to pay for humanity to become more humane.

 

[Tigers!]

Considering that women are and have been prey to violent men, among other things, for millennia, it's not a big deal if it went too far in Sweden. Often "too far" is what is needed to change anything. For eons, men have been saying, "Ok, yes, go ahead and criticize, but be nice about it." Fuck that. I'm not at all sorry that some powerful men got kicked out of power for their sexist comments or whatever thing you think is so mild and undeserving of them losing their jobs. I don't give a fuck about protecting powerful men. We should be open to whatever it takes to truly upend cultural acceptance of violence against women. There's more important things than some individual men feeling they have been treated unjustly by a women's movement they don't control.

Yes innocent until proved guilty is an important thing.

There is no limit to how many girls and women must suffer constant disrespect throughout our lives, from sick, predatory comments made by grown men toward little girls to violent, horrendous brutality and murder, for men to even speak up about it, much less try to change anything. So fuck those guys. They should have given them a kick in the balls on the way out, too.

And the response to this will invariably be "Not fair! Don't expect us to be nice to you if you treat us badly." Again, we've heard that shit for eons. You're just well conditioned to repeat it any time you're uncomfortable with women fighting back.

If women ever do change culture around the world into something that respects women and is led by women by at least half if not more, it will have to come with some real pain on the part of men. You can choose to be uncomfortable now and get serious about helping to make that change or you can suffer whatever comes later. And it's very likely you'll win and we women will again be subdued and treated like chattel around the world. But it's also quite possible that you won't, and if you don't win, many of you (and us) will suffer greatly for it because you, Just. Won't. Help. Us. And you have the luxury and privilege and power to do nothing.

So yeah, I don't give a fuck about any man's discomfort due to women fighting back. False accusations are so rare as to be non-existent compared to the number of women harmed in some way every fucking day, every hour, every minute. It's a very small, tiny price to pay for humanity to become more humane.

I too, am not concerned if men who deserve to be be worse than discomforted are indeed so.
But if the innocent are hurt then humanity is not becoming more humane.

 

[Angry Floof]

But if the innocent are hurt then humanity is not becoming more humane.

You mean innocent men. Because the girls and women who are harmed every minute of every day are not innocent, right?

 

[skepticalbip]

But if the innocent are hurt then humanity is not becoming more humane.

You mean innocent men. Because the girls and women who are harmed every minute of every day are not innocent, right?

You seem to not be able to view humans as individuals but rather as members of some identity group. To condemn all men because there are some bad ones is as absurd as condemning all women because there are some bad ones. And yes, there are some bad humans in both sexes.

 

[Angry Floof]

But if the innocent are hurt then humanity is not becoming more humane.

You mean innocent men. Because the girls and women who are harmed every minute of every day are not innocent, right?

You seem to not be able to view humans as individuals but rather as members of some identity group. To condemn all men because there are some bad ones is as absurd as condemning all women because there are some bad ones. And yes, there are some bad humans in both sexes.

You seem to have no fucking clue about what I'm talking about.

 

[skepticalbip]

You seem to not be able to view humans as individuals but rather as members of some identity group. To condemn all men because there are some bad ones is as absurd as condemning all women because there are some bad ones. And yes, there are some bad humans in both sexes.

You seem to have no fucking clue about what I'm talking about.

And you seem to have no fucking clue that people are individuals not robots required to act as a collective fulfilling whatever stereotype you have assigned to their "identity group".

 

[Angry Floof]

You seem to not be able to view humans as individuals but rather as members of some identity group. To condemn all men because there are some bad ones is as absurd as condemning all women because there are some bad ones. And yes, there are some bad humans in both sexes.

You seem to have no fucking clue about what I'm talking about.

And you seem to have no fucking clue that people are individuals not robots required to act as a collective fulfilling whatever stereotype you have assigned to their "identity group".

And you have no idea how or what I think. But I'm glad this topic is triggering you. The main reason the world is still so violent and disrespectful to women is because that reality causes most men very little discomfort, no more than can be rationalized away and forgotten. Those few who actively fight with us, like Patrick Stewart, do so because they have traumatic personal experience. In Patrick's case, he grew up witnessing his father abusing his mother, and he did not turn out to be an abuser himself, which is often the case. But most men, pffth. Sure, they agree society should not be accepting and apathetic about violence against women, but then out of sight, out of mind.

So this is good that you're outraged at my outrageous comments, so much that you bother to type out your outrage. There may be hope for you eventually.

 

[skepticalbip]

And you seem to have no fucking clue that people are individuals not robots required to act as a collective fulfilling whatever stereotype you have assigned to their "identity group".

And you have no idea how or what I think. But I'm glad this topic is triggering you. The main reason the world is still so violent and disrespectful to women is because that reality causes most men very little discomfort, no more than can be rationalized away and forgotten. Those few who actively fight with us, like Patrick Stewart, do so because they have traumatic personal experience. In Patrick's case, he grew up witnessing his father abusing his mother, and he did not turn out to be an abuser himself, which is often the case. But most men, pffth. Sure, they agree society should not be accepting and apathetic about violence against women, but then out of sight, out of mind.

So this is good that you're outraged at my outrageous comments, so much that you bother to type out your outrage. There may be hope for you eventually.

It isn't your hatred of men that I find sad and disturbing, it is your lumping of humans into identity groups and your inability to see people as individuals. This is the kind of dehumanization that has given the planet some of the worse atrocities. The Albanians were slaughtered because they were seen as the "identity group", Albanians rather than as humans that happen to be in Albania. Nazis could, without thinking, kill Jews because they had been put in the "identity group", Jew rather than seen as humans who happen to be Jewish. The same story for the Native Americans who were seen as an "identity group" rather than humans. etc, etc.

Those who lump people into "identity groups" loose sight of those others' humanity. At that point they are all seen as whatever vile stereotype people want to assign to them. Such senseless hatred is a poison.

 

[Angry Floof]

And you seem to have no fucking clue that people are individuals not robots required to act as a collective fulfilling whatever stereotype you have assigned to their "identity group".

And you have no idea how or what I think. But I'm glad this topic is triggering you. The main reason the world is still so violent and disrespectful to women is because that reality causes most men very little discomfort, no more than can be rationalized away and forgotten. Those few who actively fight with us, like Patrick Stewart, do so because they have traumatic personal experience. In Patrick's case, he grew up witnessing his father abusing his mother, and he did not turn out to be an abuser himself, which is often the case. But most men, pffth. Sure, they agree society should not be accepting and apathetic about violence against women, but then out of sight, out of mind.

So this is good that you're outraged at my outrageous comments, so much that you bother to type out your outrage. There may be hope for you eventually.

It isn't your hatred of men that I find sad and disturbing, it is your lumping of humans into identity groups and your inability to see people as individuals. This is the kind of dehumanization that has given the planet some of the worse atrocities. The Albanians were slaughtered because they were seen as the "identity group", Albanians rather than as humans that happen to be in Albania. Nazis could, without thinking, kill Jews because they had been put in the "identity group", Jew rather than seen as humans who happen to be Jewish. The same story for the Native Americans who were seen as an "identity group" rather than humans. etc, etc.

Those who lump people into "identity groups" loose sight of those others' humanity. At that point they are all seen as whatever vile stereotype people want to assign to them. Such senseless hatred is a poison.

Thanks for that demonstration. I absolutely do not hate men. I want men to be uncomfortable. I want them to feel challenged or insulted or awkward, and I want them to feel it relentlessly, at least as relentlessly as women and girls are harmed by men every minute of every day.

Call me "poison" or whatever insults you want to throw at me. I'm glad you're pissed and full of hatred for me. Stew in it, for all I care, and stew in your hateful cartoon straw man. This is a good thing. Your attacks on me are irrelevant, but your butthurt response to any criticism of men is relevant. Keep it up! Tell all your friends. It's the least you can do to keep attention on violence against women and girls.

 

[skepticalbip]

It isn't your hatred of men that I find sad and disturbing, it is your lumping of humans into identity groups and your inability to see people as individuals. This is the kind of dehumanization that has given the planet some of the worse atrocities. The Albanians were slaughtered because they were seen as the "identity group", Albanians rather than as humans that happen to be in Albania. Nazis could, without thinking, kill Jews because they had been put in the "identity group", Jew rather than seen as humans who happen to be Jewish. The same story for the Native Americans who were seen as an "identity group" rather than humans. etc, etc.

Those who lump people into "identity groups" loose sight of those others' humanity. At that point they are all seen as whatever vile stereotype people want to assign to them. Such senseless hatred is a poison.

Thanks for that demonstration. I absolutely do not hate men. I want men to be uncomfortable. I want them to feel challenged or insulted or awkward, and I want them to feel it relentlessly, at least as relentlessly as women and girls are harmed by men every minute of every day.

Call me "poison" or whatever insults you want to throw at me. I'm glad you're pissed and full of hatred for me. Stew in it, for all I care, and stew in your hateful cartoon straw man. This is a good thing. Your attacks on me are irrelevant, but your butthurt response to any criticism of men is relevant. Keep it up! Tell all your friends. It's the least you can do to keep attention on violence against women and girls.

You seem to have a reading comprehension problem.

 

[Angry Floof]

It isn't your hatred of men that I find sad and disturbing, it is your lumping of humans into identity groups and your inability to see people as individuals. This is the kind of dehumanization that has given the planet some of the worse atrocities. The Albanians were slaughtered because they were seen as the "identity group", Albanians rather than as humans that happen to be in Albania. Nazis could, without thinking, kill Jews because they had been put in the "identity group", Jew rather than seen as humans who happen to be Jewish. The same story for the Native Americans who were seen as an "identity group" rather than humans. etc, etc.

Those who lump people into "identity groups" loose sight of those others' humanity. At that point they are all seen as whatever vile stereotype people want to assign to them. Such senseless hatred is a poison.

Thanks for that demonstration. I absolutely do not hate men. I want men to be uncomfortable. I want them to feel challenged or insulted or awkward, and I want them to feel it relentlessly, at least as relentlessly as women and girls are harmed by men every minute of every day.

Call me "poison" or whatever insults you want to throw at me. I'm glad you're pissed and full of hatred for me. Stew in it, for all I care, and stew in your hateful cartoon straw man. This is a good thing. Your attacks on me are irrelevant, but your butthurt response to any criticism of men is relevant. Keep it up! Tell all your friends. It's the least you can do to keep attention on violence against women and girls.

You seem to have a reading comprehension problem.

No. I just don't give a shit about your protestations.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Considering that women are and have been prey to violent men, among other things, for millennia, it's not a big deal if it went too far in Sweden. Often "too far" is what is needed to change anything. For eons, men have been saying, "Ok, yes, go ahead and criticize, but be nice about it." Fuck that. I'm not at all sorry that some powerful men got kicked out of power for their sexist comments or whatever thing you think is so mild and undeserving of them losing their jobs. I don't give a fuck about protecting powerful men. We should be open to whatever it takes to truly upend cultural acceptance of violence against women. There's more important things than some individual men feeling they have been treated unjustly by a women's movement they don't control.

There is no limit to how many girls and women must suffer constant disrespect throughout our lives, from sick, predatory comments made by grown men toward little girls to violent, horrendous brutality and murder, for men to even speak up about it, much less try to change anything. So fuck those guys. They should have given them a kick in the balls on the way out, too.

And the response to this will invariably be "Not fair! Don't expect us to be nice to you if you treat us badly." Again, we've heard that shit for eons. You're just well conditioned to repeat it any time you're uncomfortable with women fighting back.

If women ever do change culture around the world into something that respects women and is led by women by at least half if not more, it will have to come with some real pain on the part of men. You can choose to be uncomfortable now and get serious about helping to make that change or you can suffer whatever comes later. And it's very likely you'll win and we women will again be subdued and treated like chattel around the world. But it's also quite possible that you won't, and if you don't win, many of you (and us) will suffer greatly for it because you, Just. Won't. Help. Us. And you have the luxury and privilege and power to do nothing.

So yeah, I don't give a fuck about any man's discomfort due to women fighting back. False accusations are so rare as to be non-existent compared to the number of women harmed in some way every fucking day, every hour, every minute. It's a very small, tiny price to pay for humanity to become more humane.

The end justifies the means argument. That hasn't worked out so well historicaly. How about trying our best not to be evil any step of the way?

 

[fromderinside]

So yeah, I don't give a fuck about any man's discomfort due to women fighting back. False accusations are so rare as to be non-existent compared to the number of women harmed in some way every fucking day, every hour, every minute. It's a very small, tiny price to pay for humanity to become more humane.

Nor do I Angry Floof. What is needed are enough women of note to grab a social 'we really like this' and find ways to make it unpopular for anyone to dare messing with it because they exhibit the undesirable attribute.

I find the current using courts and taking wealth a bit slow. We want to ridicule all the social scum.

Have the elites show and call out anyone who publicly accosts a girl or woman because he can a coward and criminal at every elite social gathering? Once the video is in the ether its there forever. You will get there fast.

I suggest something like videos be taken at all these beloved social functions and that the most salient verbal, physical, sexual or gender excess of any kind be broadly published highlighted and booed by others attending such gatherings for everyone to see and be lead to feel ashamed. You want use something that makes people who see it disgusted and desirous of making all social gatherings safe for girls and women. You want to achieve social rejection of manageable behaviors.

Just take the British society knife example and find an equivalent broadly approved damning process. Try it. You'll like it. If one loses privileges' from broad public disapproval of that behavior you will have a winner.

 

[Angry Floof]

Considering that women are and have been prey to violent men, among other things, for millennia, it's not a big deal if it went too far in Sweden. Often "too far" is what is needed to change anything. For eons, men have been saying, "Ok, yes, go ahead and criticize, but be nice about it." Fuck that. I'm not at all sorry that some powerful men got kicked out of power for their sexist comments or whatever thing you think is so mild and undeserving of them losing their jobs. I don't give a fuck about protecting powerful men. We should be open to whatever it takes to truly upend cultural acceptance of violence against women. There's more important things than some individual men feeling they have been treated unjustly by a women's movement they don't control.

There is no limit to how many girls and women must suffer constant disrespect throughout our lives, from sick, predatory comments made by grown men toward little girls to violent, horrendous brutality and murder, for men to even speak up about it, much less try to change anything. So fuck those guys. They should have given them a kick in the balls on the way out, too.

And the response to this will invariably be "Not fair! Don't expect us to be nice to you if you treat us badly." Again, we've heard that shit for eons. You're just well conditioned to repeat it any time you're uncomfortable with women fighting back.

If women ever do change culture around the world into something that respects women and is led by women by at least half if not more, it will have to come with some real pain on the part of men. You can choose to be uncomfortable now and get serious about helping to make that change or you can suffer whatever comes later. And it's very likely you'll win and we women will again be subdued and treated like chattel around the world. But it's also quite possible that you won't, and if you don't win, many of you (and us) will suffer greatly for it because you, Just. Won't. Help. Us. And you have the luxury and privilege and power to do nothing.

So yeah, I don't give a fuck about any man's discomfort due to women fighting back. False accusations are so rare as to be non-existent compared to the number of women harmed in some way every fucking day, every hour, every minute. It's a very small, tiny price to pay for humanity to become more humane.

The end justifies the means argument. That hasn't worked out so well historicaly. How about trying our best not to be evil any step of the way?

That little fantasy has nothing to do with what's going on here. Try harder. Women and girls are harmed every minute of every day.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But if the innocent are hurt then humanity is not becoming more humane.

You mean innocent men. Because the girls and women who are harmed every minute of every day are not innocent, right?

So harm to your in-group matters, but harm to your out-group doesn't?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Thanks for that demonstration. I absolutely do not hate men. I want men to be uncomfortable. I want them to feel challenged or insulted or awkward, and I want them to feel it relentlessly, at least as relentlessly as women and girls are harmed by men every minute of every day.

Call me "poison" or whatever insults you want to throw at me. I'm glad you're pissed and full of hatred for me. Stew in it, for all I care, and stew in your hateful cartoon straw man. This is a good thing. Your attacks on me are irrelevant, but your butthurt response to any criticism of men is relevant. Keep it up! Tell all your friends. It's the least you can do to keep attention on violence against women and girls.

So you want to inflict harm on innocents because others inflicted harm on your in-group?

 

[Angry Floof]

Thanks for that demonstration. I absolutely do not hate men. I want men to be uncomfortable. I want them to feel challenged or insulted or awkward, and I want them to feel it relentlessly, at least as relentlessly as women and girls are harmed by men every minute of every day.

Call me "poison" or whatever insults you want to throw at me. I'm glad you're pissed and full of hatred for me. Stew in it, for all I care, and stew in your hateful cartoon straw man. This is a good thing. Your attacks on me are irrelevant, but your butthurt response to any criticism of men is relevant. Keep it up! Tell all your friends. It's the least you can do to keep attention on violence against women and girls.

So you want to inflict harm on innocents because others inflicted harm on your in-group?

I'm not inflicting anything. In fact, no one is "inflicting" anything on men. We're calling you out for your utter apathy toward women and girls.

 

[Angry Floof]

But if the innocent are hurt then humanity is not becoming more humane.

You mean innocent men. Because the girls and women who are harmed every minute of every day are not innocent, right?

So harm to your in-group matters, but harm to your out-group doesn't?

No one's harming my out-group. No one is harming men by calling you out for having no empathy or concern or respect for half of the human race. It's not about you personally, but if you personally react to any mention of men being challenged to notice how their privilege protects their apathy as "harm" or "inflicting" something on you, then yes, you are a part of that. But it's not about you personally. Your feelings and opinions are irrelevant to the fact that men as a group do not give a flying shit that they, as a group, prey on women and girls with degradation, disrespect, brutalization, and murder.

Let me try to put this another way. #Notallmen, but those men who do degrade, harm, kill women and girls are essentially free to do so because men in general look the other way. It's not personal. Individual rapists and abusers are often held accountable. But they also have a large space to work within because they know how the men around them operate. And that's not even mentioning the cops that do nothing when a woman is threatened or the judges that think violent rapists shouldn't go to jail because their future must be protected and/or "she should have kept her legs closed," as if she had a choice.

Those abusers are well aware of what they can say and do in your vicinity. In an environment were you exist, they know damn well how far they can go with the disrespect and degradation, and they take your nervous laughter (or your cry-laughing smilies in response to rape videos... harmless, right?) as your approval. They take those judges' care and concern for rapists and disregard for rape victims as approval. They take those cops' unwillingness to keep women safe as approval.

The best, the very best I can say about you is that you don't personally cause harm, but you just don't care that half the human race is brutalized every day by the other half.

When you're out picketing or marching or starting threads in this pasty white sausage fest TFT community on what men can do to make the world a safer place for women and kids, then maybe we can revisit the "yOuRe nOt bEiNg NiCe tO uS" strawman.

Cases of false accusation are so miniscule as to be non-existent in the face of the violence you ignore. Call them collateral damage if you want. I call them irrelevant. No one condones false accusations except the people who make them. No one says "false accusations are ok because violence against women." We're saying false accusations are irrelevant.