The Swedish #MeToo movement took an unexpected turn

[Toni]

Given the level and severity of domestic violence perpetuated by men in women compared with women’s violence towards men, I think you have a point. I was fortunate to have a husband/father to my children who truly loves young children and had tremendous patience with all aspects of caring for them. Most of the other fathers in our group and most of the fathers of my friends’ children were far less involved. When my daughter babysat, she noted that the mothers were very much the ones who were ‘in charge’ of all things child related including discipline, which in our social group was primarily setting limits and schedules.

I also want to add to my previous. As you said, it's mostly women who take on the care and responsibility of children, often with little or no support or the temperament to do well under pressure. Under right wing policies, more inexperienced and unsupported women would have babies, they would get less support from their environment, the fears and pressures of a misogynist right wing community or society would add a ton of unnecessary stress and degradation on top of trying to feed their kids that they may not have even wanted and no one holds men accountable for where they put their sperm or how they treat the person they put it in, they may or may not get a decent education given that public schools have been under attack by right wing nut jobbery for decades and college level education is expensive, and get less access to mental health support.

Even without these things getting worse and even when they get better, you're going to have a significant number of child abuse cases where the abuser is the mother or other female carer.

And we all should work harder to support policies that reflect our concern for both mothers and children and make sure their needs are met. That alone would reduce the number of cases of mothers abusing their children.

But here's the thing: It's very rare for women to be predators. It's rare for women to be molesters or serial child murderers.

It's also very rare to find a woman who would say nothing if her friends were bragging about their abuses or joking about raping or killing kids. It's very rare that you find a woman posting a cry-laughing smiley when shown a video of a rape. Etc., etc.

The pathetic attempts to claim "women are just as bad" are getting tiresome. This is a freethought community, yet it's mainly just us few women who challenge such bullshit here. (But much love to those few guys who do take people to task for shit like that. )

Exactly. The last paragraph cannot be stated often enough.

 

[DrZoidberg]

The cautionary tale of false, vague and malicious accusations hasn't been all bad.

These have raised the level of consciousness of fair-minded people about the need to be seen to be scrupulously puritanical when it comes to the 'appropriateness' of one's behaviour...or rather, the appearance of appropriateness.

If putting yourself above suspicion helps to build a culture where 'inappropriate' behaviour disappears, that's a good thing.

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It's a pipe dream. I was one of the ones leading the consent workshops at a large, and sex positive, festival.

The above form leads to something we labelled as "weaponized consent".

The creep asks consent for something vague and then is free to rape.

Sociopaths are masters at gaming whatever system is in place. You only need a couple to ruin the fun for everyone at a festival with thousands of guests. Creating "safe spaces" is dangerous. Safe spaces make people (ie women) naive, take stupid risks and it attracts sociopaths like flies to honey. In my experience safe spaces tend to punish just those men who try their best in being respectful and good, while making it easier for sociopaths to do what they usually do.

Wise from experience I think it's better to teach women that men are inherently dangerous and that rape isn't a problem that will ever go away. I think we need to accept that there's fundamental differences in female and male physiology and psychology, and this create differences in the basic realities of trying to get laid with people you are attracted to.

But I'm not saying that teaching women this means that we let men do whatever. I'm also for strict social control of men.

What I've seen works best is loads of rules men need to follow, that only apply to men. The asking of consent, being one of them. Any man who violates any of the rules is forcibly ejected. And to police this stringently.

But the rules need to be clear and unambiguous. Festivals have the added benefit that whatever hanky panky is happening there's almost always witnesses. Women who make reports and accusations are (not always but) often quite inaccurate. Once a woman feels like a victim of sexual assault she will often warp important (and verifiable) details making what was ambiguous into something black and white. This creates doubt about the accusation. Rapey sociopathic men know this and will use it to their advantage to get out of trouble.

So, since both parties when an accusation has been made are unreliable we need to accept that rape and sexual assaults are hard or impossible to police, and we need to shape our rules around that. We just have to accept some vagaries and unfairness.

But there is one metric that seems to be pretty rock solid. Number of accusations. If the same guy keeps getting reported by women then he's most likely a rapey sociopath and should be blocked from entry.

The above is based on my experiences trying to police sexual assault at a large festival.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

But then men would be expected to step up and take care of children, at the expense of their work life/career/education/night out at the bars/sportsgame/sex/sleep/life. I don't see how that would work out.

The reason that women are more likely to be responsible for abuse towards a young child is because children are much, much more likely to be in the care of women than men. Whether they are employed or not, women provide significantly more care to children compared with men, whether the men are employed or not. The gap has narrowed over the past 20 years but it is still significant.

Imagine if more men cared for their children full time than women, with all the variances in support that women receive from their society and communities, and more men in daycares then women, etc. Just imagine.

Apologies to the wonderful, caring dads and male daycare workers, but if that were how the world looked, at least in the West it would be catastrophic for children.

Given the level and severity of domestic violence perpetuated by men in women compared with women’s violence towards men, I think you have a point. I was fortunate to have a husband/father to my children who truly loves young children and had tremendous patience with all aspects of caring for them. Most of the other fathers in our group and most of the fathers of my friends’ children were far less involved. When my daughter babysat, she noted that the mothers were very much the ones who were ‘in charge’ of all things child related including discipline, which in our social group was primarily setting limits and schedules.

Domestic violence is about equally split.

It's just male on female tends to inflict more harm than female on male.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Given the level and severity of domestic violence perpetuated by men in women compared with women’s violence towards men, I think you have a point. I was fortunate to have a husband/father to my children who truly loves young children and had tremendous patience with all aspects of caring for them. Most of the other fathers in our group and most of the fathers of my friends’ children were far less involved. When my daughter babysat, she noted that the mothers were very much the ones who were ‘in charge’ of all things child related including discipline, which in our social group was primarily setting limits and schedules.

Domestic violence is about equally split.

It's just male on female tends to inflict more harm than female on male.

Humanities behaviour is the result of an evolutionary arms race. I find it hard to believe that women are any less prone to violence than men. I think the difference comes down to choice of weapons. Since women are physically weaker they will more often resort to psychological violence.

Exhibit A is how common physical violence is in lesbian relationships.

 

[fromderinside]

It looks like a lot of fun in the mud arena.

So what! When the arms are arms there isn't much death. When the arms carry weapons (arms carry arms) there are lots of deaths.

 

[Angry Floof]

Given the level and severity of domestic violence perpetuated by men in women compared with women’s violence towards men, I think you have a point. I was fortunate to have a husband/father to my children who truly loves young children and had tremendous patience with all aspects of caring for them. Most of the other fathers in our group and most of the fathers of my friends’ children were far less involved. When my daughter babysat, she noted that the mothers were very much the ones who were ‘in charge’ of all things child related including discipline, which in our social group was primarily setting limits and schedules.

Domestic violence is about equally split.

It's just male on female tends to inflict more harm than female on male.

Humanities behaviour is the result of an evolutionary arms race. I find it hard to believe that women are any less prone to violence than men. I think the difference comes down to choice of weapons. Since women are physically weaker they will more often resort to psychological violence.

Exhibit A is how common physical violence is in lesbian relationships.

And yet, here we are, a lot less prone to violence than men.

If men spent half as much time thinking about how they can help and protect women from their fellow predators as they do about making excuses and looking for ways out, we'd have very little violence against women.

Instead, the vast majority of you get defensive and try to say there's no problem or that wOmEm R jUsT aS bAd or some other fantasy.

"They do it too, so our deeply ingrained cruelty can be ignored." The dogmatically religious also love to say, "Well, these other institutions also molest kids, so we are off the hook." Yeah, that's way better than taking responsibility and protecting children, isn't it?

This disregard of women runs deep and wide in Western culture, and others. People who regard us as less than and believe they are our authority figures who should be telling us what to think and do, even if not outright abusing and murdering us, are complicit.

Why is self reflection, soul searching, admitting wrong, humbling yourself, shutting up and respecting other human beings so hard for men when it comes to women?

Why is "Stop telling us what to do and think and listen for a god damn change" such an alien concept for so many of you?

If this doesn't apply to you, then yo have no reason to get defensive and butthurt and start telling us once again what to think and do.

You don't lose anything by shutting up and respecting women and demanding that other men do so as well without regard to anything any woman is saying or doing - it's not conditional.

I understand how some stunted, backward, toxic men can't fathom shutting up and respecting women and believe we need to be beaten and brutalized for even saying so, but I believe that those mongrels are few, but I also believe the only reason they exist is because the rest of you don't say or do anything about it except consider it not your problem and continue laughing at the rape jokes.

You can do better. I would think you'd want to.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Humanities behaviour is the result of an evolutionary arms race. I find it hard to believe that women are any less prone to violence than men. I think the difference comes down to choice of weapons. Since women are physically weaker they will more often resort to psychological violence.

Exhibit A is how common physical violence is in lesbian relationships.

And yet, here we are, a lot less prone to violence than men.

First line of your message you ignore what I wrote and make up your own interpretation.

Psychological violence is also violence. But you decided to pretend that I only meant physical violence. Even though I explicitly say I mean both.

Since you couldn't be bothered to read my message I couldn't be bothered to read the rest of your message.

 

[Angry Floof]

Humanities behaviour is the result of an evolutionary arms race. I find it hard to believe that women are any less prone to violence than men. I think the difference comes down to choice of weapons. Since women are physically weaker they will more often resort to psychological violence.

Exhibit A is how common physical violence is in lesbian relationships.

And yet, here we are, a lot less prone to violence than men.

First line of your message you ignore what I wrote and make up your own interpretation.

Psychological violence is also violence. But you decided to pretend that I only meant physical violence. Even though I explicitly say I mean both.

Since you couldn't be bothered to read my message I couldn't be bothered to read the rest of your message.

Yawn. What else is new? Whatever it takes to not give a shit about your fellow human beings. Whatever excuse to turn away. Thank you for that demonstration.

 

[Angry Floof]

On Facebook yesterday. A girl was asked about her experiences and she said, "Not really, just groping and catcalling and stuff, just normal stuff."

That's not normal. It's not acceptable. Stop looking for reasons to criticize women and hold your fellow creeps accountable instead.

 

[Lion IRC]

"...hold your fellow creeps accountable"

See?
THATS how you win hearts and minds.
#poison_well #friendly_fire

 

[Angry Floof]

"...hold your fellow creeps accountable"

See?
THATS how you win hearts and minds.
#poison_well #friendly_fire

Nothing I could say could possibly be your excuse for anything you do or think. "I was gonna become a better person with a better view of myself and the world around me, but youuuuuuuuuu were rude, so never mind."

Well, ladies, we almost had them convinced, but then I had to go and be all rude and shit to Lion. Oh, well.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

On Facebook yesterday. A girl was asked about her experiences and she said, "Not really, just groping and catcalling and stuff, just normal stuff."

That's not normal. It's not acceptable. Stop looking for reasons to criticize women and hold your fellow creeps accountable instead.

You are saying all men are creeps.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Humanities behaviour is the result of an evolutionary arms race. I find it hard to believe that women are any less prone to violence than men. I think the difference comes down to choice of weapons. Since women are physically weaker they will more often resort to psychological violence.

Exhibit A is how common physical violence is in lesbian relationships.

And yet, here we are, a lot less prone to violence than men.

If men spent half as much time thinking about how they can help and protect women from their fellow predators as they do about making excuses and looking for ways out, we'd have very little violence against women.

Did you even read what he wrote??

Domestic violence is about equally distributed. Plenty of domestic violence in lesbian relationships.

In other words, women are about as violent as men, it's just self-preservation, not engaging in violence against those who are likely to retaliate effectively.

 

[Angry Floof]

On Facebook yesterday. A girl was asked about her experiences and she said, "Not really, just groping and catcalling and stuff, just normal stuff."

That's not normal. It's not acceptable. Stop looking for reasons to criticize women and hold your fellow creeps accountable instead.

You are saying all men are creeps.

I don't actually think all men are creeps, but you can believe that if you want. I don't care. Die mad about what you think I think. Your regard for women and your reluctance to hold men accountable has nothing to do with me.

The vast majority of you are absolutely fine with the pain women and girls go through for millennia at the hands of violent men and men in positions of power to do anything about it who turn a blind eye. At even the slightest hint that some men might be experiencing discomfort at the #metoo movement, you cry like fucking little bitches. So fine, don't help, but don't fucking cry when what's necessary to make actual change in the world becomes painful for you. It doesn't have to be painful for you. No one particularly wants it to be, but if that's what it takes...

We're done making things comfortable for people who don't give a flying crap about half the human race. (Actually a lot more than half, but we're only talking about women and girls here.)

 

[Angry Floof]

Humanities behaviour is the result of an evolutionary arms race. I find it hard to believe that women are any less prone to violence than men. I think the difference comes down to choice of weapons. Since women are physically weaker they will more often resort to psychological violence.

Exhibit A is how common physical violence is in lesbian relationships.

And yet, here we are, a lot less prone to violence than men.

If men spent half as much time thinking about how they can help and protect women from their fellow predators as they do about making excuses and looking for ways out, we'd have very little violence against women.

Did you even read what he wrote??

Domestic violence is about equally distributed. Plenty of domestic violence in lesbian relationships.

In other words, women are about as violent as men, it's just self-preservation, not engaging in violence against those who are likely to retaliate effectively.

I did read it, and it's bullshit. About 15% of domestic violence victims are men. Even considering their reluctance to report doesn't make a difference because women and girls are also reluctant to report.

Whatever amount of violence you claim for lesbian couples, go ahead and at least double it for gay couples who are both male.

No, women are not fucking just as violent as men. Stop perpetuating this utter fucking bullshit that does more harm to girls and women!

On top of that, women do not live in a culture where women are in authority either in general or in the traditional ideas that are steeped deep in the substrate of Western society for millennia AND are being shoved down our throats daily even now.

We don't go around intimidating men or degrading them every time they walk by. Show me one god damn man who is afraid or even reluctant to walk by a bunch of women they don't know in public.

Not only are men more violent and responsible for more domestic violence, we also live in a culture that offers protection and comfort for those men and little for the women and girls they abuse.

You aren't defending anything worthwhile or even true here. What are you actually defending? Are you really so oblivious to women and girls and so steeped in, I don't know, Men's Rights AM radio or some shit, that you honestly believe you are saying anything either realistic or grownup here??

Also, ask all your male friends if they ever have been and at what age they were first the victim of predatory sexual remarks from women. Even if on the off chance you find one who even has a story there, it's not going to be a common theme.

The world we live in is steeped in misogyny and comfort for men.

What are you doing to make a difference there? Oh, nothing? OK. Well, that's fine, but the least you can do is shut the fuck up and sit down.

 

[Toni]

Given the level and severity of domestic violence perpetuated by men in women compared with women’s violence towards men, I think you have a point. I was fortunate to have a husband/father to my children who truly loves young children and had tremendous patience with all aspects of caring for them. Most of the other fathers in our group and most of the fathers of my friends’ children were far less involved. When my daughter babysat, she noted that the mothers were very much the ones who were ‘in charge’ of all things child related including discipline, which in our social group was primarily setting limits and schedules.

Domestic violence is about equally split.

It's just male on female tends to inflict more harm than female on male.

Not by the stats I've seen.

https://ncadv.org/STATISTICS#:~:tex...n 3 women and,violence by an intimate partner.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK499891/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence_in_the_United_States

In the United States, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics in 1995 women reported a six times greater rate of intimate partner violence than men.[31][32] The National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) indicates that in 1998 about 876,340 violent crimes were committed in the U.S. against women by their current or former spouses, or boyfriends.[33] According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, in the United States 4.8 million women suffer intimate partner related physical assaults and rapes and 2.9 million men are victims of physical assault from their partners.[34][35

 

[DrZoidberg]

On Facebook yesterday. A girl was asked about her experiences and she said, "Not really, just groping and catcalling and stuff, just normal stuff."

That's not normal. It's not acceptable. Stop looking for reasons to criticize women and hold your fellow creeps accountable instead.

You are saying all men are creeps.

I don't think she is. She's saying that creeps are common. You need very few creepy guys for this to be a problem for all women most of the time.

 

[DrZoidberg]

On Facebook yesterday. A girl was asked about her experiences and she said, "Not really, just groping and catcalling and stuff, just normal stuff."

That's not normal. It's not acceptable. Stop looking for reasons to criticize women and hold your fellow creeps accountable instead.

You are saying all men are creeps.

I don't actually think all men are creeps, but you can believe that if you want. I don't care. Die mad about what you think I think. Your regard for women and your reluctance to hold men accountable has nothing to do with me.

The vast majority of you are absolutely fine with the pain women and girls go through for millennia at the hands of violent men and men in positions of power to do anything about it who turn a blind eye. At even the slightest hint that some men might be experiencing discomfort at the #metoo movement, you cry like fucking little bitches. So fine, don't help, but don't fucking cry when what's necessary to make actual change in the world becomes painful for you. It doesn't have to be painful for you. No one particularly wants it to be, but if that's what it takes...

We're done making things comfortable for people who don't give a flying crap about half the human race. (Actually a lot more than half, but we're only talking about women and girls here.)

I don't think it's true that men turn a blind eye. I think it's the other way around. Men are almost always proactively working to prevent it. It's like a conspiracy of the patriarchy to prevent creepy men to creep or worse. Its just that non-creepy men can't be everywhere all the time and that it's going to be a problem even with the best efforts of decent guys. And that's what's common.

Add to that cultures (historical and contemporary) that are straight up sexist and misogynist. I'm not arguing against those existing.

What I'm trying to say is that the vast majority of men are actually decent and are willing to, at great personal risk, protect women around them.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I should add that I'm a big friend of feminism and think that #MeToo, overall is a good thing. But too much of a good thing is a bad thing.

I think it's fair to call Swedish #MeToo "toxic femininity". I'm not so sure what toxic masculinity is any longer. But if it's a thing then the Swedish #MeToo must surely be the female equivalent.

#MeToo in Denmark is purely a positive thing. I have nothing negative to say about it. So I'm not against #MeToo in general.

 

[Lion IRC]

"...hold your fellow creeps accountable"

See?
THATS how you win hearts and minds.
#poison_well #friendly_fire

Nothing I could say could possibly be your excuse for anything you do or think. "I was gonna become a better person with a better view of myself and the world around me, but youuuuuuuuuu were rude, so never mind."

Well, ladies, we almost had them convinced, but then I had to go and be all rude and shit to Lion. Oh, well.

Hey, it's not us concern trolls you need to worry about. I've got no skin in the game.

But you're flunking Marketing101 in the same way you've been doing for the last 50 years of feminist woketivism.

You're walking into into a bar full of alpha males shouting...'hey all you creepy scumbag wannabe rapists..."