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The universe is proof of god!

Hawking has talked about the time binding of space - and it's possible permutations. He contradicts you.


...

I did find this nonsense... is this your "proof"?
https://www.godcontention.org/christian/zenos-paradox-and-infinite-regress




LOLz this is good stuff. Infinity cannot exist because Math looked up in Dictionary.

In Zeno's Paradox, the reader is presented with the clever illusion that you must traverse an infinite number of halves. This is not true. Further, there is the implicit and deceptive suggestion in the paradox that the more halves you must traverse, the longer it will take you to get there. This is also not true. Both of these deceptions are simple category mistakes. We don't traverse halves. Halves are not a measure of distance. We traverse miles. We traverse inches. We traverse meters and centimeters. We don't traverse halves.

Notice that what we actually traverse in Zeno's Paradox above is sixty miles. Sixty miles is a finite amount. Notice further that even when we begin insisting upon going halfway first, and halfway to halfway before that, the number of miles doesn't change at all. It stays sixty miles, a finite amount. In fact, no matter how many times you slice it and dice it, as long as the number of slices is finite, it remains sixty miles.

If you travel at sixty miles per hour when driving from home to your office sixty miles away, you will get there in sixty minutes, or one hour.

If you must go thirty miles first, you will get to the halfway point in thirty minutes, and you will still get to your office in one hour:

30 minutes + 30 minutes = 60 minutes, or 1 hour

If you must go fifteen miles before you can go thirty miles before you can go sixty miles, the equation looks like this:

15 + 15 + 15 + 15 = 60 minutes, or 1 hour

If you must go seven and a half miles before you can go fifteen before you can go thirty before you can go sixty, the equation looks like this:

7.5 + 7.5 + 7.5 + 7.5 + 7.5 + 7.5 + 7.5 + 7.5 = 60 minutes

Notice that no matter how many times you cut each portion in half, you do not change the final distance of sixty miles and you do not increase the amount of time it takes to traverse sixty miles. It always takes sixty minutes.

This is extremely important. As long as the number of halves are not actually infinite, as long as we have not reached "the end of infinity", the distance remains sixty miles and the amount of time remains sixty minutes.

Note also as we approach an infinite number of halves, that the sections of distance decrease. 60 goes to 30, then 15, then 7.5, then 3.75, and smaller and smaller and smaller. As we approach an infinite amount of sections of distance, the size of each section goes toward zero. What this means is that if we could actually reach "the end of infinity", each section would have zero length.

Now, Zeno's claim is that since there are an infinite number of sections, we can never travel sixty miles. The reality is that if there could ever be an actualized infinite number of sections, we would be at the office before we even left our home. Take a look at what the equation would look like if there were a literal infinite number of halves:

0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + 0 + ...+ 0 = 0 minutes.

It doesn't matter how many times you add zero to zero... you will never get sixty.

Thus, as long as we agree that it is impossible to get to "the end of infinity", the sixty miles from your home to your office will always be sixty miles. As soon as we claim that it IS possible to get to "the end of infinity", the distance from your home to your office becomes zero miles.

So, we see by analyzing Zeno's Paradox that it is obviously impossible to get to "the end of infinity". Of course, we shouldn't need to analyze Zeno's Paradox to come to this conclusion, because the definition of infinity is "without end". Just look it up in the dictionary.

See? If you divider the distance to your office by infinity, the length of your commute goes to zero!!

thus was born the name of the time machine in my next novel: The infinity divider drive.

But the point is, this man and anyone who believes him, are bad at math. I'll quote StackExchange for brevity and then you can go ask questions in the Math Forum here on TFT where you can try this out to your hearts' content. But basically

StackExchange said:
you could say that 1∞=0, so 1−1∞=1. But then, you're stretching the definition of division past breaking point - division as you know it isn't defined for infinity, so the answer is undefined. Otherwise you can quickly get yourself into a pickle and end up saying 1=2.

Arithmetic operators - add, subtract, divide, multipy, raise to the power of - are defined on a particular set of numbers: such as real numbers, or complex numbers.

The set you use for definition, will determine what you can and can't say meaningfully. Typically (but not always), infinity is excluded from that set.

So, yeah, don't try dividing by infinity to find god. He'll give you a zero in Math.

Infinity is not a number


I can't imagine where you are going with your Zeno's Paradox paper. It seems like you think it is a valid argument against an infinite universe while not realizing that it is also an argument for a Creator. I will assume that you agree with the former and reject the latter.

My comments have nothing to do with Zeno's Paradox which should be evident if you have read them and this goofy paper. Algebra and calculus didn't exist in Zeno's time.

I'm more of a Augustin-Louis Cauchy kind of a guy.


Regarding your stack exchange copy and paste.
I've addressed the mathematical nature of infinity vs the physical nature. You also are confused. Your quote supports a finite universe by reasoning that I don't agree with.


Hawking believes time had a beginning.

From the text of a Stephen Hawking lecture:
The conclusion of this lecture is that the universe has not existed forever. Rather, the universe, and time itself, had a beginning in the Big Bang, about 15 billion years ago. The beginning of real time, would have been a singularity, at which the laws of physics would have broken down. Nevertheless, the way the universe began would have been determined by the laws of physics, if the universe satisfied the no boundary condition. This says that in the imaginary time direction, space-time is finite in extent, but doesn't have any boundary or edge. The predictions of the no boundary proposal seem to agree with observation. The no boundary hypothesis also predicts that the universe will eventually collapse again. However, the contracting phase, will not have the opposite arrow of time, to the expanding phase. So we will keep on getting older, and we won't return to our youth. Because time is not going to go backwards, I think I better stop now.
http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-beginning-of-time.html
 
I can't imagine where you are going with your Zeno's Paradox paper.
I was trying to find someone who tries to explain what you are claiming, "that _now_ can never happen if the universe is infinite" This paper came up usung your keywords.
It seems like you think it is a valid argument against an infinite universe
No, I do not think it is valid. I think it is bunk. And I think it argues the same thing you are arguing.
while not realizing that it is also an argument for a Creator.
Oh, I get that. Not unusual to find a bunk argument trying to prove a creator. AS this thread explores.
My comments have nothing to do with Zeno's Paradox which should be evident if you have read them and this goofy paper.
I equated your comments: "universe can't be infinite because _now_ would never occur" with his argument "universe can't be infinite because _now_ would never occur"

My apologies if your bunk and his bunk are actually different bunks albeit wearing the same costume.
Algebra and calculus didn't exist in Zeno's time.
Probably why he spoke such bunk. Doesn't explain why this guy is using it to prove creation, tho.
Regarding your stack exchange copy and paste.
I've addressed the mathematical nature of infinity vs the physical nature.
No you have not. Please show what math you have presented.

Hawking believes time had a beginning.

From the text of a Stephen Hawking lecture:
Hawking had more to say about it than that, including the existence of other universes and other behaviors of time.
 
I was trying to find someone who tries to explain what you are claiming, "that _now_ can never happen if the universe is infinite" This paper came up usung your keywords.

No, I do not think it is valid. I think it is bunk. And I think it argues the same thing you are arguing.
while not realizing that it is also an argument for a Creator.
Oh, I get that. Not unusual to find a bunk argument trying to prove a creator. AS this thread explores.
My comments have nothing to do with Zeno's Paradox which should be evident if you have read them and this goofy paper.
I equated your comments: "universe can't be infinite because _now_ would never occur" with his argument "universe can't be infinite because _now_ would never occur"

My apologies if your bunk and his bunk are actually different bunks albeit wearing the same costume.
Algebra and calculus didn't exist in Zeno's time.
Probably why he spoke such bunk. Doesn't explain why this guy is using it to prove creation, tho.
Regarding your stack exchange copy and paste.
I've addressed the mathematical nature of infinity vs the physical nature.
No you have not. Please show what math you have presented.

Hawking believes time had a beginning.

From the text of a Stephen Hawking lecture:
Hawking had more to say about it than that, including the existence of other universes and other behaviors of time.

Zeno isn't really a good comparative analysis of RP's nonsense. Zeno's argument is about traversing a finite distance divided an infinite number of times. RP seems to accept that there can be an infinity bounded on one end (such as an infinite future). The trap he creates for himself (intentionally or through ignorance?) is assuming that the bounded end of an infinite past has to be a beginning point looking forward rather than the present looking back.

For a math comparison: there is an infinite number of positive integers bounded at the zero end. There is also an infinite number of negative integers bounded at the zero end. In a comparison to a timeline, the zero would be "now".
 
I was trying to find someone who tries to explain what you are claiming, "that _now_ can never happen if the universe is infinite" This paper came up usung your keywords.

No, I do not think it is valid. I think it is bunk. And I think it argues the same thing you are arguing.

Oh, I get that. Not unusual to find a bunk argument trying to prove a creator. AS this thread explores.

I equated your comments: "universe can't be infinite because _now_ would never occur" with his argument "universe can't be infinite because _now_ would never occur"

My apologies if your bunk and his bunk are actually different bunks albeit wearing the same costume.
Algebra and calculus didn't exist in Zeno's time.
Probably why he spoke such bunk. Doesn't explain why this guy is using it to prove creation, tho.
Regarding your stack exchange copy and paste.
I've addressed the mathematical nature of infinity vs the physical nature.
No you have not. Please show what math you have presented.

Hawking believes time had a beginning.

From the text of a Stephen Hawking lecture:
Hawking had more to say about it than that, including the existence of other universes and other behaviors of time.

Zeno isn't really a good comparative analysis of RP's nonsense. Zeno's argument is about traversing a finite distance divided an infinite number of times. RP seems to accept that there can be an infinity bounded on one end (such as an infinite future). The trap he creates for himself (intentionally or through ignorance?) is assuming that the bounded end of an infinite past has to be a beginning point looking forward rather than the present looking back.

For a math comparison: there is an infinite number of positive integers bounded at the zero end. There is also an infinite number of negative integers bounded at the zero end. In a comparison to a timeline, the zero would be "now".




There is no beginning point looking forward in an infinite past.

Hawking also agrees that time had a beginning.
 
Zeno isn't really a good comparative analysis of RP's nonsense.

I know, I meant the argument given by the author in the link using Zeno as a starting argument; he then says Zeno is wrong, but _he_ (the author) is right beacuse... christian logic.
 
Zeno isn't really a good comparative analysis of RP's nonsense.

I know, I meant the argument given by the author in the link using Zeno as a starting argument; he then says Zeno is wrong, but _he_ (the author) is right beacuse... christian logic.


It doesn't make sense to present an argument no one is making. It makes even less sense to present it in a way that indicates you didn't understand it or the discussion we are having.

- - - Updated - - -

There is no beginning point looking forward in an infinite past.

NO SHIT..... That's what I said. There is no beginning point. But there is the bounded end point of now when describing the infinite past.



An end point can't appear until an infinite amount of time has elapsed.



Hawking also agreed that time had a beginning.
 
Be very careful here, Learner. You are trying to use Math to make an argument, but you are using words instead of math. You should go pose this question in the Mathematics forum here. people better versed in Math than I am will show you your errors thoroughly.

But your proposition, that you can divide numbers by infinity and prevent time from moving ...
... is bunk.

Its quite a simple logic ...no maths required from this angle (Gods gift you could say to mankind). Isn't it strange that you would be willing to believe in a "Higgs field","or vibrating strings" (whats beyond that "realm" know one knows) and go search for it , at the same time observe "physical matter" that behave by the influence of "invisble" forces which is NOT physical itself.

Physical universe (what Random was on about) came into existence, was "already" defined when the introduction of the Big Bang came about ...all regarding physical observable matter.

There are then two seperate issues regarding universe began and a universe (non matter) that always was.
 
There is no beginning point looking forward in an infinite past.

NO SHIT..... That's what I said. There is no beginning point. But there is the bounded end point of now when describing the infinite past.



An end point can't appear until an infinite amount of time has elapsed.
Yes, and so what point do you think you are making???

I still don't know if this is intentionally feigned ignorance or genuine. You do repeat it a lot.
Hawking also agreed that time had a beginning.
Is this logical fallacy of appeal to authority (taken out of context) supposed to mean something?
 
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An end point can't appear until an infinite amount of time has elapsed.
I still don't know if this is intentionally feigned ignorance or genuine. You do repeat it a lot.
Hawking also agreed that time had a beginning.
Is this logical fallacy of appeal to authority (taken out of context) supposed to mean something?


:hysterical: Taken out of context? The context is the universe had a beginning and has not existed eternally.

Repetition can penetrate the thickest of skulls.
 
Its quite a simple logic ...no maths required from this angle (Gods gift you could say to mankind). Isn't it strange that you would be willing to believe in a "Higgs field","or vibrating strings" (whats beyond that "realm" know one knows) and go search for it , at the same time observe "physical matter" that behave by the influence of "invisble" forces which is NOT physical itself.

Physical universe (what Random was on about) came into existence, was "already" defined when the introduction of the Big Bang came about ...all regarding physical observable matter.

There are then two seperate issues regarding universe began and a universe (non matter) that always was.

No. You don’t understand the difference between non-visible and non-physical?
 
Its quite a simple logic ...no maths required from this angle (Gods gift you could say to mankind).


So “simple” that it’s not logic?
You have a terrible argument. It has no basis in logic or math or matter or physics.

I am trying to invite you to explain the basis of your logic. I went and googled your argument and found someone making the argument, and posted it and said, “is this what you mean?”

You said no (even though it makes the same argument as you,) so okay, you are still not making an argument that has structure or testable claims or even fits into science.

So back to the drawing board. What on earth do you mean, mathematically and with science, that nothing infinite can exist because time can’t pass in it.

(Hawking’s comments do not address this. He is talking about something else.)
 
Give an example of a non-physical thing that you can prove interacts with our universe.

If it doesn’t interact with our universe, it does not exist in our universe.
If you have knowledge of it, it must interact with our universe.
And you must have evidence of that.
 
Its quite a simple logic ...no maths required from this angle (Gods gift you could say to mankind).


So “simple” that it’s not logic?
You have a terrible argument. It has no basis in logic or math or matter or physics.

Its logic because you've sort of conflated "physical" universe (the created universe in argument) with another idea of infinite universe (before any "big bang"). An argument confusing the angle (perhaps not deliberate) for the particular types of answers ..a single question from two perspective notions ,so to speak.
 
I ascribe to freethought. There can be no such thing as supernatural. Anything that interacts with universe we see by definition is part of the universe. Whether we can explain it is irrelevant.


If a ghot truly appeared, then there has to be a causal link or law allowing it to manifest.
 
Its valid to pose those questions because there is evidence observed of "intelligence" and "creation" (not life) and "design" although on a much lesser scale within our own domain ...whereas you (plural) believe the validity to the questions posed is false because.. its not possible or probable on a much larger scale.

If you buy the winning ticket in a raffle, you only know how lucky you are if you know how many losing tickets were out there. If yours was one ticket in fifty million, you were very lucky. If it was one of five, you were only a little bit lucky. If there was only one ticket, you were not lucky at all - you had to win.

We know of one universe. Are others possible? We don't and can't know.

And even if we were to accept your false dichotomy as valid, which it clearly isn't, it doesn't have any effect on the question posed in my true dichotomy - was there always something, or did something begin to exist from nothing?

Certainly evident ,that all the observations combined suggests that: something does "not" "appear " from nothing i.e. matter should be appearing out of nowhere, since the conditions (non-physical) should be the same today as its always been in a sort of always existed universe way.

Asking an unrelated question doesn't help to resolve the original question. It's a pure non-sequitur.

You may as well attempt to address my question by asking 'Is Manchester United the best football team, or is it Liverpool?' - regardless of the answer (which may well be 'neither of these'), my original question still needs to be addressed.

Its still related and using the teams in your analogy, you do seem to say to me from the previous questions mentioned above: there's only a Manchester and not a Liverpool to consider.

I see you edited this, and gave 'Clarity' as the reason. I am sorry to have to inform you that your edit failed; I am unable to make a shred of sense of any of this response. It really couldn't be any less clear.
 
So in summary, The universe must have had a beginning, because if it didn't, the past would be infinite. And that's impossible, because if the past was infinite, it wouldn't have a beginning.

So it must have had a beginning, because if it didn't, it couldn't.

I don't find that compelling.
 
So what?

Lots of ideas are rejected by all kinds of people. I couldn't care less who rejected an idea; all I care about is their reasons for doing so, and whether that reasoning is sound.

Appeals to Authority are logically fallacious too.



There is no support for an eternal universe by physicists. If you want to reject science and just make things up, that's your prerogative.

The universe is expanding. If it was eternal it would have experienced a heat death or expanded to oblivion by now.

The observable universe is currently expanding. My position - that we do not and cannot know whether something has existed eternally, or whether something began to exist from nothing - is absolutely not a rejection of science. The scientific consensus is that we do not and cannot know what occurred before the Planck Epoch; Many people have conjectured that the physical universe began shortly before that point, but that remains purely conjecture.

Note also that my position is not with regard to the observable universe; it is in regard to everything (including anything we cannot currently observe, but which does exist, if there is anything that fits that description).

It's worth reiterating that whatever the answer is to the question 'was there always something, or did something start to exist from nothing', hypothesising a god or gods doesn't help to address the question in any way.

Bingo!

Christians are the ones who are saying that they know that there was nothing before there was something, and further that there is such a thing as "before the universe."

They are claiming to know what they can't possibly know in order to prove something they already know they can't prove.
 
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