The Virus - Are You Affected?

[T.G.G. Moogly]

What are the mask regulations in PA or your locality? Is masking in a store required by the government or just Walmart? Either way Security should be called. That's what security is for.

Everyone indoors everywhere in the state is required to be masked away from home. Walmart know this, it just isn't enforced. 99% of people are masked so Walmart is just taking the easy path, doing nothing unless reported obviously. It's the only big box store where I've seen people without masks.

 

[crazyfingers]

What are the mask regulations in PA or your locality? Is masking in a store required by the government or just Walmart? Either way Security should be called. That's what security is for.

Everyone indoors everywhere in the state is required to be masked away from home. Walmart know this, it just isn't enforced. 99% of people are masked so Walmart is just taking the easy path, doing nothing unless reported obviously. It's the only big box store where I've seen people without masks.

I have not been to a Walmart in a year (though we do order pickup), but I do rarely go inside the grocery store. Since March 2020 I'd guess I've seen pretty much 100% mask wearing except for the occasional brain-deader with it not covering the nose. When I saw the same guy twice without it over the nose I went to the store manager about it.

Before they were illegal here I also saw employees with masks with valves. I also complained to the store manager. I explained to him what was common sense that breathing valves are not safe for shoppers.

Once I was in a CVS and a delivery guy was walking around the store without a mask. Again I complained to the manager on duty. She confronted the delivery guy to wear a mask.

I think that complaining to a manager can be effective. I don't ask stocking or checkout clerks to deal with it. They are taking enough risk for the low pay as it is.

 

[Artemus]

You say earlier in the thread that the virus itself was much worse than the first dose, but here say that you couldn't tell if she had the virus in November because she already has bad days anyway. Why then are you so sure that the first dose "messed her up"?

I'll agree with you 100% that she should consult with her physician about the second dose.

Getting all advice possible is good but that doesn't mean that all advice is good advice. I've learned a helluva lot from non-professionals over my life, some of it very good and helpful, in one case just about life-saving.

But here she is getting conflicting advise from her son-in-law and friends. My mother was is a similar situation...most of her offspring were telling her to take the vaccine but our bat-shit crazy sister was telling her that it would kill her. Her physician told her to get it. End of discussion. When in doubt, trust the experts.

 

[Artemus]

And I'm about ready to kill my bat-shit crazy sister's bat-shit crazy daughter. I spoke to my 89 year old mother on the phone an hour ago. I knew that my niece had tested positive a month ago, but what I just learned is that the day before she developed symptoms her cat had escaped from the house and was killed by a car. She was "so distraught that she couldn't drive" so begged her grandmother to drive her somewhere. "She was worried that she might have given it to me."

This niece turns 40 this year. She has always needed to be the center of attention. This time it nearly killed my mother. Stupid POS.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

And, if you're afraid of the vaccine, think of my 95 year old mother who is in a nursing home and on hospice. She received both doses of the vaccine without any side effects,

You should count your blessings.

My mother-in-law got her first C19 vaccination about 2 weeks ago. It put her in bed for days.
Since then, she's heard from the same people who talked her into the first shot, that the second one is much worse.

That wasn't her doctor or me, it was some church lady friend of hers.
Now, I'm not sure if she's going to go back for the second shot. The first was pretty bad, and she believes that the second will be much worse.

I really really wish that poorly tested drugs weren't so easily available to gullible old ladies who believe their gullible old lady friends.
Tom

Poorly tested drugs are not available legally in any developed nation.

Side effects are an expected and routine part of vaccination, and represent the exact immune response that the vaccine is trying to produce.

No medication that is effective is completely free of side effects, and it's essentially just a matter of luck how severe those side effects are for an individual; But it's a certainty that they are less severe than the consequences of contracting the disease.

The price of survival is discomfort (and that's true not only in the case of medical interventions).

A small amount of discomfort is a great deal better than a large amount, and is certainly a lot better than risking death.

A few days in bed is better than a few weeks in hospital.

Error: Some people will die of the vaccine. There hasn't been enough time for good data but from what I've seen about it the rate is going to be something in the ballpark of one in a million.

While overall you're better off taking the vaccine if you are that one in a million you would be better off with Covid.

It's no reason not to get the shot but don't pretend that the side effects are always less than the disease.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

In Russia they started vaccination of everybody in January. I called hospital thinking that I would have to wait but was vaccinated in 2 hours.
Vaccination rate is slower than in US though, people are not eager to get it it seems.

I have seen a lot of distrust of the Russian vaccine in various places.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I suspect that many of the people who have bad reactions to the first vaccine dose may have already been exposed to the COVID virus. My brother in law and sister were very ill early in 2020 with something that the local doctors couldn't diagnose, and I think it was COVID given their symptoms. He spent time in the hospital with it, and my sister missed several weeks of work.

He had his first vaccine dose a couple of weeks ago and it made him very ill. He is not looking forward to the second dose. Given his health issues (severe diabetes, kidney transplant, heart issues) he has his done in the hospital too.

Most of my family had very minor reactions to both doses. I am not expecting to have anything major after my second dose tomorrow.

Ruth

Seconded--the second shot is worse because the immune system has been primed at that point, the second shot is basically a training exercise. Someone who had Covid would likewise have an immune system primed to go after it.

 

[Treedbear]

...
Error: Some people will die of the vaccine. There hasn't been enough time for good data but from what I've seen about it the rate is going to be something in the ballpark of one in a million.

While overall you're better off taking the vaccine if you are that one in a million you would be better off with Covid.

It's no reason not to get the shot but don't pretend that the side effects are always less than the disease.

How do you determine that the one in a million who died from the vaccine wouldn't have died from the disease? It's possible that the people who have the worst reactions to the vaccine would also have the worst reactions with Covid. Actually it seems that since the vaccine and the virus stimulate the immune system in similar ways that it's a possibility.

 

[barbos]

In Russia they started vaccination of everybody in January. I called hospital thinking that I would have to wait but was vaccinated in 2 hours.
Vaccination rate is slower than in US though, people are not eager to get it it seems.

I have seen a lot of distrust of the Russian vaccine in various places.

I blame you for that.

 

[bilby]

Poorly tested drugs are not available legally in any developed nation.

Side effects are an expected and routine part of vaccination, and represent the exact immune response that the vaccine is trying to produce.

No medication that is effective is completely free of side effects, and it's essentially just a matter of luck how severe those side effects are for an individual; But it's a certainty that they are less severe than the consequences of contracting the disease.

The price of survival is discomfort (and that's true not only in the case of medical interventions).

A small amount of discomfort is a great deal better than a large amount, and is certainly a lot better than risking death.

A few days in bed is better than a few weeks in hospital.

Error: Some people will die of the vaccine.

I never suggested otherwise.

There hasn't been enough time for good data but from what I've seen about it the rate is going to be something in the ballpark of one in a million.

OK.

While overall you're better off taking the vaccine if you are that one in a million you would be better off with Covid

No.

This is about expected future value.

If you are better off doing a day's work than buying a scratch lottery ticket in the hope of winning enough to retire, then it would be perverse to the point of insanity to suggest that because someone will hit the jackpot, the lottery strategy might be better.

It's technically true, but practically it's utterly stupid and useless.

It's no reason not to get the shot but don't pretend that the side effects are always less than the disease.

I am not "pretending" anything. It's true - for all reasonable purposes. Unless you consider the making of incredibly pedantic points on the Internet to be reasonable.

A one in a million chance of death is always better than a one in thirty chance.

Always.

Unless you can predict the future.

 

[Jarhyn]

I never suggested otherwise.

There hasn't been enough time for good data but from what I've seen about it the rate is going to be something in the ballpark of one in a million.

OK.

While overall you're better off taking the vaccine if you are that one in a million you would be better off with Covid

No.

This is about expected future value.

If you are better off doing a day's work than buying a scratch lottery ticket in the hope of winning enough to retire, then it would be perverse to the point of insanity to suggest that because someone will hit the jackpot, the lottery strategy might be better.

It's technically true, but practically it's utterly stupid and useless.

It's no reason not to get the shot but don't pretend that the side effects are always less than the disease.

I am not "pretending" anything. It's true - for all reasonable purposes. Unless you consider the making of incredibly pedantic points on the Internet to be reasonable.

A one in a million chance of death is always better than a one in thirty chance.

Always.

Unless you can predict the future.

Because of the mechanisms of the vaccine, I find it more likely that if you would be harmed by it, you would damn near get killed by covid.

 

[TomC]

You say earlier in the thread that the virus itself was much worse than the first dose, but here say that you couldn't tell if she had the virus in November because she already has bad days anyway. Why then are you so sure that the first dose "messed her up"?

I'll agree with you 100% that she should consult with her physician about the second dose.

In a way it's hard to explain, in a way it isn't.

The medical establishment was in chaos. Bad or incomplete information was swirling around. My mother-in-law is quite an independent old church lady who does whatever she decides to do, whether you like it or not.

That sort of thing complicates my decisions and opinions.

She wasn't diagnosed with C19, but she had "flu-like" symptoms that were rough. But you couldn't just get a test at the time in this county, you had to have a prescription and then go wait in line at the hospital or health department. There certainly weren't vaccinations available. It was all a mess.

Then, awhile later, her fundy Baptist church kinda blew up from C19 infections. Her doctor ordered the test and mother-in-law tested positive. Doug and I went and paid for tests in another county and both came back negative.

Since then, her doctor never recommended a C19 vaccination to her. She didn't advise against it, she just didn't bring it up. So when mother-in-law was out getting groceries with another church lady friend, that friend talked mother-in-law into getting the first shot at a grocery store without calling the doctor! Afterwards, she got kinda sick for a couple of days. She thinks it's the vaccination(doesn't matter what I think, although I'm inclined to agree). Then she "learned" that the second shot is worse, and now she doesn't want it. I think I've convinced her to ask her doctor and do whatever she recommends.

But I have no way of knowing what will happen or what the results will be.

Like I said, medical chaos and bad information and recalcitrant old ladies are a dangerous combination.

Tom

 

[TomC]

Because of the mechanisms of the vaccine, I find it more likely that if you would be harmed by it, you would damn near get killed by covid.

Is this medical advice? Or just a vague unsupported opinion?

Please don't take this personally. But making sweeping statements about a health issue like this, without taking into account individuals exact circumstances, is "practicing medicine without a license".

Given the mess surrounding C19 that's all too common. But it's still a bad idea.

IMNSHO.
Tom

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

And I'm about ready to kill my bat-shit crazy sister's bat-shit crazy daughter. I spoke to my 89 year old mother on the phone an hour ago. I knew that my niece had tested positive a month ago, but what I just learned is that the day before she developed symptoms her cat had escaped from the house and was killed by a car. She was "so distraught that she couldn't drive" so begged her grandmother to drive her somewhere. "She was worried that she might have given it to me."

This niece turns 40 this year. She has always needed to be the center of attention. This time it nearly killed my mother. Stupid POS.

Jebus, there is just so much wrong with that! Glad your mother didn't suffer from any of that wrong.

 

[Treedbear]

Because of the mechanisms of the vaccine, I find it more likely that if you would be harmed by it, you would damn near get killed by covid.

Is this medical advice? Or just a vague unsupported opinion?

Please don't take this personally. But making sweeping statements about a health issue like this, without taking into account individuals exact circumstances, is "practicing medicine without a license".

Given the mess surrounding C19 that's all too common. But it's still a bad idea.

IMNSHO.
Tom

It may be all too common but he was clearly just stating an opinion. This is a forum of ideas not for people offering professional advice. I see why you may be upset and concerned. My advice as the eldest son of an elderly mother is to ask if you can be there when she talks with her doctor. Seniors can have a hard time asking enough questions and keeping track of the answers when a doctor always seems to have one foot out the door. I have trouble during my own checkups and have to bring a notepad and pen along. Even when he writes some notes down I have a hard time reading them. So the frustration is understandable. To be fair it's difficult for the physician too. With all the meds most seniors are on how certain can they be that they're taking them as prescribed? They really need someone there for support and to make sure the right questions get asked.

 

[Jarhyn]

Because of the mechanisms of the vaccine, I find it more likely that if you would be harmed by it, you would damn near get killed by covid.

Is this medical advice? Or just a vague unsupported opinion?

Please don't take this personally. But making sweeping statements about a health issue like this, without taking into account individuals exact circumstances, is "practicing medicine without a license".

Given the mess surrounding C19 that's all too common. But it's still a bad idea.

IMNSHO.
Tom

The Covid 19 vaccine is a stabilization of mRNA that causes the body to produce spike protein. That's the mechanism of action.

If the body gets sick from the vaccine, you can be fairly sure it's because of a reaction to the spike protein or the mRNA, both of which are also present in an actual infection.

"If you react badly to the vaccine, you will likely react worse to the virus" can be functionally read as...

"If you react badly to [viral mRNA and virus parts for 2-3 days] you will likely react worse to [viral mRNA and virus parts dumped into your system by the actual virus for 1-2 weeks]"

 

[TomC]

"If you react badly to the vaccine, you will likely react worse to the virus" can be functionally read as...

"If you react badly to [viral mRNA and virus parts for 2-3 days] you will likely react worse to [viral mRNA and virus parts dumped into your system by the actual virus for 1-2 weeks]"

Is that true for elderly women who are on a raft of medication for everything from COPD to diabetes to epilepsy?
Who have probably already had C19, but nobody knows for sure?

Would my mother-in-law react worse to another C19 exposure than her second dose of the vaccine?
I'm not asking about broad statistics, I'm asking about the person I'm most concerned about. My mother-in-law.

Tom

 

[Loren Pechtel]

...
Error: Some people will die of the vaccine. There hasn't been enough time for good data but from what I've seen about it the rate is going to be something in the ballpark of one in a million.

While overall you're better off taking the vaccine if you are that one in a million you would be better off with Covid.

It's no reason not to get the shot but don't pretend that the side effects are always less than the disease.

How do you determine that the one in a million who died from the vaccine wouldn't have died from the disease? It's possible that the people who have the worst reactions to the vaccine would also have the worst reactions with Covid. Actually it seems that since the vaccine and the virus stimulate the immune system in similar ways that it's a possibility.

Disagree. The immune system turning on the platelets is a rare but known risk of vaccines, but Covid causes clotting, not bleeding. (Yes, plenty of Covid deaths are from bleeding but that's not Covid, that's the treatment. The doctors are trying to chart a path between the Scylla of clotting and the Charybdis of bleeding and it's a very dangerous passage, many patients don't make it.) When you vaccinate somebody and they then get immune thrombocytopenia purpura you figure it's the vaccine.

 

[Treedbear]

...
Error: Some people will die of the vaccine. There hasn't been enough time for good data but from what I've seen about it the rate is going to be something in the ballpark of one in a million.

While overall you're better off taking the vaccine if you are that one in a million you would be better off with Covid.

It's no reason not to get the shot but don't pretend that the side effects are always less than the disease.

How do you determine that the one in a million who died from the vaccine wouldn't have died from the disease? It's possible that the people who have the worst reactions to the vaccine would also have the worst reactions with Covid. Actually it seems that since the vaccine and the virus stimulate the immune system in similar ways that it's a possibility.

Disagree. The immune system turning on the platelets is a rare but known risk of vaccines, but Covid causes clotting, not bleeding. (Yes, plenty of Covid deaths are from bleeding but that's not Covid, that's the treatment. The doctors are trying to chart a path between the Scylla of clotting and the Charybdis of bleeding and it's a very dangerous passage, many patients don't make it.) When you vaccinate somebody and they then get immune thrombocytopenia purpura you figure it's the vaccine.

Is that the way it happens? I'll take your word for it. I was thinking along the lines of a cytokine storm due to an over-reaction of the immune system.

 

[TomC]

Disagree. The immune system turning on the platelets is a rare but known risk of vaccines, but Covid causes clotting, not bleeding. (Yes, plenty of Covid deaths are from bleeding but that's not Covid, that's the treatment. The doctors are trying to chart a path between the Scylla of clotting and the Charybdis of bleeding and it's a very dangerous passage, many patients don't make it.) When you vaccinate somebody and they then get immune thrombocytopenia purpura you figure it's the vaccine.

This kinda illustrates the problem I have.
I believe you know what you're talking about. The problem is that I don't know enough to understand, just enough to worry. Mother-in-law takes substantial doses of some kind of blood thinner. Enough that it causes nose bleed issues with her CPAP unit sometimes. Her doctor has a far better understanding of her exact situation.

And honestly, I still don't believe it was as thoroughly tested as it might have been. I understand it was done in crisis mode, for obvious reasons. I'm not faulting the industry or anything, they had to do it fast. But how will it affect my mother-in-law?
I just don't know.
Tom