The women's march shows it's true colors

[Metaphor]

You assume that public transport seats are more comfortabnle for women than men. On what do you base this?

I gave some of the reasons when I described how spreading ones legs is a postural response to unsuitable seating. But I'll list some.

I'll start with seat height, which you allude to below. Seats on public transport are much lower to the ground than is comfortable for most men because of the very need to cater to very short people (mostly women) and children. I take public transport to and from work every day. I have never witnessed a woman's legs dangle because the seat was too high, on a bus or a tram. If such a thing did occur, the person would have to be exceptionally short.

When seat height is too low (as it is for more men than women), your thighs are raised off the seating surface and not supported. If you've looked at recommended seating posture in offices, the recommendation is for thighs and the upper leg to be parallel to the ground. It is painful to sit with raised thighs for extended lengths of time.

A second issue arises from the first: the seat length is far too short for most people, let alone most men. The reason armchairs are nicer to sit in than dining chairs is not only because they are padded, but because of the seat depth. Some public transport seats are so shallow it'd be fairer to call it 'perching' rather than 'sitting'. The seat length is short, probably for economy of space, but it nevertheless affects men more. Men have longer thighs and are more likely to be obese than women.

A third issue is the seat pitch (the distance between a particular spot on the back of one seat and the same location on the back of the seat behind/in front). Men have longer legs than women and this results in less leg room.

I don't know if you've sat on a seat where the seat in front of you threatens to destroy your kneecaps, shins, and sanity. From the sound of it, I'm guessing not. But if you have, can you imagine how much worse it is for anyone taller than you?

Do you know how uncomfortable it is to sit in chairs where your knee joints are made to dangle because your feet do not tough the ground? It is extremely uncomfortable and, on long rides like airplanes, it is painful.

Dangling legs is uncomfortable which is why planes provide footrests for shorter people (though this really isn't possible on some other kinds of high-movement mass transport). However, only people of exceptional shortness have dangling legs on public transport.

 

[Rhea]

Planes do not have foot rests.
I am not exceptionally short. I am 5’6”, above average for a woman.
You are not correct or accurate about the sizes of things for women.

And for every too-short seat pitch, I’ll show you a too-powerful airbag. Your knees may be smacked, but you don’t die.

I can appreciate how painful planes can be for you, an above average height men. But you don’t appear to appreciate how painful it is for average women. You seem to think you can tell us that it all looks fine to you, so its fine. Even in a thread where people are telling you it’s not fine.

Nearly every public chair in every public place is too tall for a woman to sit comfortably. And we cannot just stretch out our feet to change it. Not on a bus nor an airplane, no a courtroom or an office or a restaurant or a laundromat.

 

[Toni]

Or, get this: They think for themselves. They make up their own minds. Listen to their own selves. Say what they mean. Do what they want.

 

[Metaphor]

Planes do not have foot rests.
I am not exceptionally short. I am 5’6”, above average for a woman.
You are not correct or accurate about the sizes of things for women.

And for every too-short seat pitch, I’ll show you a too-powerful airbag. Your knees may be smacked, but you don’t die.

I can appreciate how painful planes can be for you, an above average height men. But you don’t appear to appreciate how painful it is for average women. You seem to think you can tell us that it all looks fine to you, so its fine. Even in a thread where people are telling you it’s not fine.

Nearly every public chair in every public place is too tall for a woman to sit comfortably. And we cannot just stretch out our feet to change it. Not on a bus nor an airplane, no a courtroom or an office or a restaurant or a laundromat.

Rhea, I plain do not believe you. A chair that is too tall would mean your feet are dangling off the ground, and most women's feet would be dangling off the ground in most public places everywhere. That's an insane thing to believe. That is not the universe we inhabit. I have eyes. I can see women with their feet on the ground.

My mother is shorter than you. Her feet do not dangle in the church pews. They do not dangle on a dining chair or in a bus. In fact, she uses a cushion to raise the seat height.

"And we cannot just stretch our feet to change it".

What are you talking about?

Plane seats have foot rests. I know because they get in the way when I'm trying to place my feet on the ground. If you are not aware of them I don't know what to tell you.

 

[Toni]

Sure Jan.

I think that at this point in time, feminists have very good reasons to continue to call themselves feminists and to choose the leaders they choose and the ideas and ideals they espouse.

I'm not gendering the leadership nor the ideals.

So despite having written with contempt about women and feminists listening to men, you are actually fine with women and feminists listening to anyone of any gender.

I am impressed and proud of you. Good stuff.

The contempt —-and assumptions are all yours. None of it is good at all.

 

[Toni]

There is a very simple solution to this. Unisex bathrooms. Why are male and female bathrooms still a thing?

As Don stated: men dribble on seats.

 

[Arctish]

"And we cannot just stretch our feet to change it".

What are you talking about?

Plane seats have foot rests. I know because they get in the way when I'm trying to place my feet on the ground. If you are not aware of them I don't know what to tell you.

Hey, check it out! Qantas has footrests in Economy class seating. The article says Qantas has more room per seat, too.

Must be nice.

 

[Toni]

You assume that public transport seats are more comfortabnle for women than men. On what do you base this?

I gave some of the reasons when I described how spreading ones legs is a postural response to unsuitable seating. But I'll list some.

I'll start with seat height, which you allude to below. Seats on public transport are much lower to the ground than is comfortable for most men because of the very need to cater to very short people (mostly women) and children. I take public transport to and from work every day. I have never witnessed a woman's legs dangle because the seat was too high, on a bus or a tram. If such a thing did occur, the person would have to be exceptionally short.

When seat height is too low (as it is for more men than women), your thighs are raised off the seating surface and not supported. If you've looked at recommended seating posture in offices, the recommendation is for thighs and the upper leg to be parallel to the ground. It is painful to sit with raised thighs for extended lengths of time.

A second issue arises from the first: the seat length is far too short for most people, let alone most men. The reason armchairs are nicer to sit in than dining chairs is not only because they are padded, but because of the seat depth. Some public transport seats are so shallow it'd be fairer to call it 'perching' rather than 'sitting'. The seat length is short, probably for economy of space, but it nevertheless affects men more. Men have longer thighs and are more likely to be obese than women.

A third issue is the seat pitch (the distance between a particular spot on the back of one seat and the same location on the back of the seat behind/in front). Men have longer legs than women and this results in less leg room.

I don't know if you've sat on a seat where the seat in front of you threatens to destroy your kneecaps, shins, and sanity. From the sound of it, I'm guessing not. But if you have, can you imagine how much worse it is for anyone taller than you?

Do you know how uncomfortable it is to sit in chairs where your knee joints are made to dangle because your feet do not tough the ground? It is extremely uncomfortable and, on long rides like airplanes, it is painful.

Dangling legs is uncomfortable which is why planes provide footrests for shorter people (though this really isn't possible on some other kinds of high-movement mass transport). However, only people of exceptional shortness have dangling legs on public transport.

How unkind and unfair of you to tell Rhea that you don't believe her. I certainly do.

Dangling legs can be uncomfortable. Planes may provide footrests and it's great if your legs are long enough to reach the foot rest. Mine are not. Sliding the seat to recline a bit and maybe reach the footrest? Hard to do without impinging on the person behind me. There are no foot rests on subways or buses or at least, not the ones I've been on.

Adjusting my small Japanese car so that I have the seat as high and as far back as possible, I'm still at very serious risk of serious injury if my airbag goes off. I almost had to give up driving altogether late in my pregnancies as it was difficult to fit behind the steering wheel and accommodate my belly---and simultaneously reach the pedals.

Putting things in the overhead compartments and better yet: retrieving items is really challenging when you are short. And I'm not even short enough to be considered a little person. I'm probably about average for many eastern Asian women and taller than most of the Hmong women I know who are close to my age. But by American white standards? I'm pretty short. Even petite sized pants and jackets and shirts are often too long for me. It's easier now to find shoes that fit because there are so many Asian ladies now and usually, they also have smaller feet. I went through years of struggling to find shoes that fit. Pretty often, I wore children's sneakers but those didn't work for work. Also, they don't have the same support as adult shoes. And children's clothing is not designed for an adult body or for adult tastes. I still often struggle to find clothing that is neither geared towards very young girls or very old ladies. I have found a couple of brands that reliably fit and look age appropriate. But only a couple. I sigh as I pass by racks and racks of clothes I'd love to wear but never come in my size because they are designed for giraffes.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Or, get this: They think for themselves. They make up their own minds. Listen to their own selves. Say what they mean. Do what they want.

Sounds good to me.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Planes do not have foot rests.
I am not exceptionally short. I am 5’6”, above average for a woman.

You are considerably taller than I. Men can be short too. This is not a gender issue. This is a height issue. That height correlates with gender doesn't make it a gender thing anymore than it is a race thing, which also correlates with height. Should I complain that black guys can touch the floor with their feet while sitting on a plane and asian me can't and declare it racist? Naw.

Nearly every public chair in every public place is too tall for a woman to sit comfortably. And we cannot just stretch out our feet to change it. Not on a bus nor an airplane, no a courtroom or an office or a restaurant or a laundromat.

Its rare that I find a seat where my feet touch the ground. Learn to adapt. Its not that hard. At least we have more relative space than the tall people who get squished.

 

[Metaphor]

"And we cannot just stretch our feet to change it".

What are you talking about?

Plane seats have foot rests. I know because they get in the way when I'm trying to place my feet on the ground. If you are not aware of them I don't know what to tell you.

Hey, check it out! Qantas has footrests in Economy class seating. The article says Qantas has more room per seat, too.

Must be nice.

This mesh thing is new. They had a different style of footrest (a metal bar) on other configurations.

"Economy class" is confining for even petite people. It isn't "nice". QANTAS is a relatively expensive carrier and has better seat pitch than other budget carriers but there's a reason business class provides more leg room than cattle class.

 

[Metaphor]

How unkind and unfair of you to tell Rhea that you don't believe her. I certainly do.

I don't believe her statement that the majority of public seating everywhere is too tall for the vast majority of women and that their feet dangle. That's an insane claim. I know some people whose legs dangle on some kinds of seats but they are the vanishing minority, not a vast majority.

Dangling legs can be uncomfortable. Planes may provide footrests and it's great if your legs are long enough to reach the foot rest. Mine are not. Sliding the seat to recline a bit and maybe reach the footrest? Hard to do without impinging on the person behind me. There are no foot rests on subways or buses or at least, not the ones I've been on.

I didn't say dangling legs were not uncomfortable. I find ludicrous the idea that the vast majority of seating leaves the vast majority of women with dangling legs. I cannot and do not believe it.

Adjusting my small Japanese car so that I have the seat as high and as far back as possible, I'm still at very serious risk of serious injury if my airbag goes off. I almost had to give up driving altogether late in my pregnancies as it was difficult to fit behind the steering wheel and accommodate my belly---and simultaneously reach the pedals.

This has nothing to do with public seating but if you want a whinge-off on who has it more difficult - the exceptionally short versus the exceptionally tall - I guarantee you, shortie, will lose.

Putting things in the overhead compartments and better yet: retrieving items is really challenging when you are short.

Just ask the tall man near you to do it. I guarantee you we take pity on the short and often help them out.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I didn't say dangling legs were not uncomfortable.

Its not THAT uncomfortable. There are plenty of ways to sit comfortably on a chair that is too high off the ground for you. Probably more ways to do that than there is to sit in a chair that is too low to the ground for you and without much space for your legs. I've always looked with pity on the big tall people on airplanes with their legs all squished.

BTW if any short people (women or men) want to feel taller, go to the Philippines. You'll feel like a giant even if you're short. I have a friend there who is 4'9". 5' is not uncommon.

 

[ruby sparks]

Or, get this: They think for themselves. They make up their own minds. Listen to their own selves. Say what they mean. Do what they want.

Except that apparently, according to you, many are feminists even if they themselves don't realise it.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Or, get this: They think for themselves. They make up their own minds. Listen to their own selves. Say what they mean. Do what they want.

Except that apparently, according to you, many are feminists even if they themselves don't realise it.

That's mere semantics. They realize that they are what Toni defines as Feminist (so am I), they just don't agree on the definition.

 

[ruby sparks]

Ducks believing they are cows I think was how it was put.

 

[ruby sparks]

Or, get this: They think for themselves. They make up their own minds. Listen to their own selves. Say what they mean. Do what they want.

Except that apparently, according to you, many are feminists even if they themselves don't realise it.

That's mere semantics. They realize that they are what Toni defines as Feminist (so am I), they just don't agree on the definition.

"Well don't you believe women should be treated fairly? Oh, well then you are a feminist!"

I wonder who once said that, complete with exclamation mark?

 

[ruby sparks]

DP

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

That's mere semantics. They realize that they are what Toni defines as Feminist (so am I), they just don't agree on the definition.

"Well don't you believe women should be treated fairly? Oh, well then you are a feminist!"

I wonder who once said that, complete with exclamation mark?

The quoted isn't a problem in isolation. Its a problem when used, as it pretty much always is, as equivocation. For example, "Feminists" push for women to be paid "at least as much" as men (rather than equally). Somebody objects to that and the "Feminists" pushing it. Then somebody uses the quote you noted above to try to silence them or make it appear that they are or should be ok with the "Feminists" because they can be defined as a totally different meaning of the word "Feminist". I'm surprised that I have to explain that to you.

 

[Toni]

I don't believe her statement that the majority of public seating everywhere is too tall for the vast majority of women and that their feet dangle. That's an insane claim. I know some people whose legs dangle on some kinds of seats but they are the vanishing minority, not a vast majority.



I didn't say dangling legs were not uncomfortable. I find ludicrous the idea that the vast majority of seating leaves the vast majority of women with dangling legs. I cannot and do not believe it.

Adjusting my small Japanese car so that I have the seat as high and as far back as possible, I'm still at very serious risk of serious injury if my airbag goes off. I almost had to give up driving altogether late in my pregnancies as it was difficult to fit behind the steering wheel and accommodate my belly---and simultaneously reach the pedals.

This has nothing to do with public seating but if you want a whinge-off on who has it more difficult - the exceptionally short versus the exceptionally tall - I guarantee you, shortie, will lose.

Putting things in the overhead compartments and better yet: retrieving items is really challenging when you are short.

Just ask the tall man near you to do it. I guarantee you we take pity on the short and often help them out.

Perhaps people in Australia are taller? Perhaps you haven’t notice Cel as much because it’s not an issue for you. One does tend to be more aware of issues we deal with ourselves. Sure, sometimes taller people help shorter people and sometimes shorter people help taller ones or ones who are not so flexible or have an injury or disability or a child or are helping someone who does. But—there are not always tall men around when you want one and they are not always so quick to help anyone else, being quick to help themselves. Taller women are more likely to offer help. Short women, for that matter. At least for those of us who are past the ‘hot’ stage and not yet too grandma looking. Do not get me started on how white American men act around pregnant women on public transport!!!! They look absolutely horrified and panicked, as though you are about to go int labor and pop out a baby any second and THEY’LL have to deal with it. As if I’d let one touch me or my baby. OTOH, my experience was that men of color and men with foreign accents were very helpful and complimentary and full of good wishes and encouragement and offers of help if they thought you might need something.