The World is Stupid

[TV and credit cards]

If you think the majority of the public know anything about the 'okay' symbol being a dogwhistle for white supremacy, then I suggest you actually ask some people who are not in your social circle what they think it means.

Apparently over 450 Jeopardy! contestants know what it means.

Yes, you've convinced me. Former Jeopardy! contestants are a random sample of the American public, and those 450 contestants are a really good chunk of the tens of thousands of contestants who have appeared on over 8,000 episodes. This man was a white supremacist and anyone who denies it as a white supremacist himself.

450 Jeopardy! contestants judging the actions of a Jeopardy! contestant. 450 contestants with fairly broad knowledge on a variety of subjects judging a contestant with fairly broad knowledge on a variety of subjects. Seems fair to me.

 

[DrZoidberg]

By giving away symbols to hate groups we're empowering them. The way the gay movement conquered hate speech was by quit being offended by it.

I think the message that needs to be spread is that it's ok being offensive and nobody needs to care if you get offended. Being offended has to stop being a thing that is expected to lead to apologies or changed behaviours.

I'd prefer it if people weren't Nazis. But I don't want Nazis to be quiet or stop being proud of being Nazis. If they're visible, at least we can talk with them about it. They're not going to stop being Nazis because they're forced to be sneaky about their Nazism. That's not how human psychology works. Nobody wants to be told what to do. Nobody wants to be told what to think. If we want people to change their opinion we need to up our persuasion game, rather than getting offended.

 

[bigfield]

Aren't we already in a situation where every possible hand gesture or symbol is an alt-right hand gesture or symbol?

How the alt-right co-opted the OK hand sign to fool the media
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/03/ok-sign-gesture-emoji-rightwing-alt-right

Sometimes they’re even more sophisticated, creating fake content cards like that of the ADL’s. They circulate the content online through social media, leaving it out as bait for undiscerning journalists who perpetuate the hoax by writing about it as if it is an authentic hate-threat.

“This is their trick: they are hoping journalists will uncritically look at the OK symbol, find these infographics that claim it stands for white power and then write about it. The trolls have a laugh when the journalists are fooled,” says Donovan.

“These become symbols of hate pretty much exclusively because of journalistic coverage,” says Wendy Phillips, who wrote This is Why We Can’t Have Nice things: Mapping the Relationship between Online Trolling and Mainstream Culture.


Ultimately, this a game about power: if rightwing trolls can make the so-called liberal media look gullible, then it has a delegitimising effect, supporting the idea that journalists are oversensitive, easily triggered snowflakes. Soon enough, the news begins to feels like it belongs to a parody website rather than real life.

Basically, some journalists are really easy to troll.

Reminds me of this thread: I think fake news is good. There doesn't appear to be any way for this trend to correct itself. The appeal of controversial stories and clickbait isn't going away any time soon, which means that desperate and lazy journalists will continue to do the bare minimum amount of vetting before putting out dubious stories.

By giving away symbols to hate groups we're empowering them. The way the gay movement conquered hate speech was by quit being offended by it.

I think the message that needs to be spread is that it's ok being offensive and nobody needs to care if you get offended. Being offended has to stop being a thing that is expected to lead to apologies or changed behaviours.

That's basically a call to change human nature.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Basically, some journalists are really easy to troll.

Reminds me of this thread: I think fake news is good. There doesn't appear to be any way for this trend to correct itself. The appeal of controversial stories and clickbait isn't going away any time soon, which means that desperate and lazy journalists will continue to do the bare minimum amount of vetting before putting out dubious stories.

I don't think it's that they are fooled or don't vet stories. It's that they live from identifying drama and putting the spotlight on it. I think they know what is trolling and what isn't. But it's in their own interest to take trolling seriously. Since it creates drama.

Running with dubious stories is their bread and butter.

By giving away symbols to hate groups we're empowering them. The way the gay movement conquered hate speech was by quit being offended by it.
I think the message that needs to be spread is that it's ok being offensive and nobody needs to care if you get offended. Being offended has to stop being a thing that is expected to lead to apologies or changed behaviours.

That's basically a call to change human nature.

No, it's not. Good luck offending a Dane or the Dutch. Singaporeans, I have been told, are also supposed to have an extremely tolerant culture. I'm sure there's more.

California is on one extreme end of the spectrum. Because of Hollywood it's often seen as the normal. But it's super far out on the fringe.

Also, all cultures have some things they're tolerant about, while other things they aren't. Americans are totally cool with depictions of violence. Scandinavians are not. Scandinavians are totally cool with with nudity, even in child friendly settings. Americans or Brits are not.

People can also be self contradictory. Swedes are super cool about attacks on religion. Unless you're attacking Islam. Then it's always an outrage.

What we're cool about or offended about seems to vary wildly for random reasons.

I think it's part of tribal psychology. We use respecting or rejecting taboos as a way to identify who is in the tribe.

So I agree that having things that are offensive being innate, I do think what we're offended about is infinitely flexible. The huge variety among cultures seems to suggest that anything can be offensive, if we decided it is.


Here's a popular Danish children's cartoon character. He has a huge penis which he uses in order to solve problems for his friends and neighbours.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_qcDrEbFm4

I doubt it would cross any Danes mind that this would be inapropriate for children to watch

 

[zorq]

By giving away symbols to hate groups we're empowering them. The way the gay movement conquered hate speech was by quit being offended by it.

I think the message that needs to be spread is that it's ok being offensive and nobody needs to care if you get offended. Being offended has to stop being a thing that is expected to lead to apologies or changed behaviours.

I'd prefer it if people weren't Nazis. But I don't want Nazis to be quiet or stop being proud of being Nazis. If they're visible, at least we can talk with them about it. They're not going to stop being Nazis because they're forced to be sneaky about their Nazism. That's not how human psychology works. Nobody wants to be told what to do. Nobody wants to be told what to think. If we want people to change their opinion we need to up our persuasion game, rather than getting offended.

Meanwhile, how many teenage suicides due to bullying should we celebrate?

Gays didn't "conquer hate speech." Hate speech is alive and well and just as painful as it has always been. Words can have as much or more power than actions.

Thinking that you can make abusive people go away by insisting they face no consequences for their abusive behavior is silly. That doesn't work for criminal abusers, so why would it help for these non criminal abusers? You don't even want us to acknowledge the abuse? Just go about our days patting abusive assholes on the back? "Good job! I don't exect you to apologise and I don't expect you to change your behavior. Just keep it up so I know where to find you!"
No, that isn't the path to a better world.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

How the alt-right co-opted the OK hand sign to fool the media
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/oct/03/ok-sign-gesture-emoji-rightwing-alt-right



Basically, some journalists are really easy to troll.

Oddly, like the Matt Bors comic demonstrates, they create a fake expression to troll, but then are using it... which identifies them for who they are. So they are laughing at the outrage, but we are saying they've out'd themselves as racists.

Racist: *flashes OK -> WP symbol*
Person: You are a racist!
Racist: What, because I did the OK symbol? Haw, I fooled you, the OK symbol isn't really a symbol racists use.
Person: But only racists use it to troll people.
Racist: ...
Racist: Yeah, you were totally trolled.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

By giving away symbols to hate groups we're empowering them. The way the gay movement conquered hate speech was by quit being offended by it.

I think the message that needs to be spread is that it's ok being offensive and nobody needs to care if you get offended. Being offended has to stop being a thing that is expected to lead to apologies or changed behaviours.

I'd prefer it if people weren't Nazis. But I don't want Nazis to be quiet or stop being proud of being Nazis. If they're visible, at least we can talk with them about it. They're not going to stop being Nazis because they're forced to be sneaky about their Nazism. That's not how human psychology works. Nobody wants to be told what to do. Nobody wants to be told what to think. If we want people to change their opinion we need to up our persuasion game, rather than getting offended.

Meanwhile, how many teenage suicides due to bullying should we celebrate?

Gays didn't "conquer hate speech." Hate speech is alive and well and just as painful as it has always been. Words can have as much or more power than actions.

Thinking that you can make abusive people go away by insisting they face no consequences for their abusive behavior is silly. That doesn't work for criminal abusers, so why would it help for these non criminal abusers? You don't even want us to acknowledge the abuse? Just go about our days patting abusive assholes on the back? "Good job! I don't exect you to apologise and I don't expect you to change your behavior. Just keep it up so I know where to find you!"
No, that isn't the path to a better world.

Sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will never hurt me, has got to be one the biggest lies we tell children to say to themselves.

 

[DrZoidberg]

By giving away symbols to hate groups we're empowering them. The way the gay movement conquered hate speech was by quit being offended by it.

I think the message that needs to be spread is that it's ok being offensive and nobody needs to care if you get offended. Being offended has to stop being a thing that is expected to lead to apologies or changed behaviours.

I'd prefer it if people weren't Nazis. But I don't want Nazis to be quiet or stop being proud of being Nazis. If they're visible, at least we can talk with them about it. They're not going to stop being Nazis because they're forced to be sneaky about their Nazism. That's not how human psychology works. Nobody wants to be told what to do. Nobody wants to be told what to think. If we want people to change their opinion we need to up our persuasion game, rather than getting offended.

Meanwhile, how many teenage suicides due to bullying should we celebrate?

Gays didn't "conquer hate speech." Hate speech is alive and well and just as painful as it has always been. Words can have as much or more power than actions.

Thinking that you can make abusive people go away by insisting they face no consequences for their abusive behavior is silly. That doesn't work for criminal abusers, so why would it help for these non criminal abusers? You don't even want us to acknowledge the abuse? Just go about our days patting abusive assholes on the back? "Good job! I don't exect you to apologise and I don't expect you to change your behavior. Just keep it up so I know where to find you!"
No, that isn't the path to a better world.

What's the alternative? You're arguing for that we give bullys more weapons to hurt and then hope that it will make bullying stop. Good luck with that strategy. Prediction, your strategy will lead to more bullying, as well as fragile kids unable to cope with the adult world. The worst of all possible alternatives.

With you in charge we will create a woke hell, where everybody loses.

 

[DrZoidberg]

By giving away symbols to hate groups we're empowering them. The way the gay movement conquered hate speech was by quit being offended by it.

I think the message that needs to be spread is that it's ok being offensive and nobody needs to care if you get offended. Being offended has to stop being a thing that is expected to lead to apologies or changed behaviours.

I'd prefer it if people weren't Nazis. But I don't want Nazis to be quiet or stop being proud of being Nazis. If they're visible, at least we can talk with them about it. They're not going to stop being Nazis because they're forced to be sneaky about their Nazism. That's not how human psychology works. Nobody wants to be told what to do. Nobody wants to be told what to think. If we want people to change their opinion we need to up our persuasion game, rather than getting offended.

Meanwhile, how many teenage suicides due to bullying should we celebrate?

Gays didn't "conquer hate speech." Hate speech is alive and well and just as painful as it has always been. Words can have as much or more power than actions.

Thinking that you can make abusive people go away by insisting they face no consequences for their abusive behavior is silly. That doesn't work for criminal abusers, so why would it help for these non criminal abusers? You don't even want us to acknowledge the abuse? Just go about our days patting abusive assholes on the back? "Good job! I don't exect you to apologise and I don't expect you to change your behavior. Just keep it up so I know where to find you!"
No, that isn't the path to a better world.

Sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will never hurt me, has got to be one the biggest lies we tell children to say to themselves.

I agree with that. But words aren't just words. Words carry meaning. I remember in daycare writing swastikas on the wall because it made one of the teachers angry. Was I being a Nazi or just provoking to get attention?

In the current paradigm we've completely lost the art of understanding subtext. We take the surface meaning to represent all the meaning.

The genius of the gay movement was that they understood that. They understood that the anti-gay slurs were all subext for "I fear you, because your existence reveal latent homosexual feelings I harbour". Ie, the opposite of aggression. Even though it often led to very real violence and actual pain. But the slurs themselves wasn't something to be upset about. It was something to pity.

 

[Elixir]

I remember in daycare writing swastikas on the wall because it made one of the teachers angry.

You might want to ask yourself how many swastika wearing, AK-47 wielding morons are acting out exactly as you were in daycare. My bet is - most of them.
THAT DOESN'T MAKE THEM HARMLESS.

 

[DrZoidberg]

I remember in daycare writing swastikas on the wall because it made one of the teachers angry.

You might want to ask yourself how many swastika wearing, AK-47 wielding morons are acting out exactly as you were in daycare. My bet is - most of them.
THAT DOESN'T MAKE THEM HARMLESS.

No, but what are we going to do about it? What they want is to offend and get attention. If you want them to stop, then stop giving them attention for writing swastikas. It's really that simple. They want outrage. Stop getting outraged.

It's the same thing about terrorism. If you want to fight terrorism, just ignore it. Don't change your lifestyle. Tell them to fuck off, but go about your day.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Sticks and stones will break my bones, but words will never hurt me, has got to be one the biggest lies we tell children to say to themselves.

I agree with that. But words aren't just words. Words carry meaning. I remember in daycare writing swastikas on the wall because it made one of the teachers angry. Was I being a Nazi or just provoking to get attention?

Curious how that paragraph managed to not mean anything.

In the current paradigm we've completely lost the art of understanding subtext. We take the surface meaning to represent all the meaning.

Not all, some people choose to believe whatever they want to believe. And others lecture about what we should and shouldn't take seriously.

The genius of the gay movement was that they understood that. They understood that the anti-gay slurs were all subext for "I fear you, because your existence reveal latent homosexual feelings I harbour". Ie, the opposite of aggression.

They what now? You appear to be claiming something with no context or reference, and then extrapolating it to broadbrush everything else.

Even though it often led to very real violence and actual pain. But the slurs themselves wasn't something to be upset about. It was something to pity.

Yeah, like I said, it is a lie we try to convince ourselves of.

 

[Elixir]

If you want them to stop, then stop giving them attention for writing swastikas.

It might be that simple from your perspective in the case of you and the daycare center. But remember - someone else had to clean the walls you... uh ... decorated.
The damage is far more severe in the case of the armed idiots.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I remember in daycare writing swastikas on the wall because it made one of the teachers angry.

You might want to ask yourself how many swastika wearing, AK-47 wielding morons are acting out exactly as you were in daycare. My bet is - most of them.
THAT DOESN'T MAKE THEM HARMLESS.

No, but what are we going to do about it? What they want is to offend and get attention. If you want them to stop, then stop giving them attention for writing swastikas. It's really that simple. They want outrage. Stop getting outraged.

It's the same thing about terrorism. If you want to fight terrorism, just ignore it. Don't change your lifestyle. Tell them to fuck off, but go about your day.

That was the George W Bush plan prior to 9/11/2001. Didn't work well.

Goodness, you are like an awful Counselor.

Counselor: Have you tried not letting it bother you?

 

[DrZoidberg]

The genius of the gay movement was that they understood that. They understood that the anti-gay slurs were all subext for "I fear you, because your existence reveal latent homosexual feelings I harbour". Ie, the opposite of aggression.

They what now? You appear to be claiming something with no context or reference, and then extrapolating it to broadbrush everything else.

Even though it often led to very real violence and actual pain. But the slurs themselves wasn't something to be upset about. It was something to pity.

Yeah, like I said, it is a lie we try to convince ourselves of.

The gays won. It was a successful strategy. They refused to let themselves be bullied. When they were shamed for being gay they had a pride parade.

While it can still be bad to be gay today. It's many times better than it was just a couple of decades ago.

It's important to understand and accept that we can't go through life not being offended. It's got to be cool for other people to say offensive things. The only thing we can control is how we react.

 

[DrZoidberg]

No, but what are we going to do about it? What they want is to offend and get attention. If you want them to stop, then stop giving them attention for writing swastikas. It's really that simple. They want outrage. Stop getting outraged.

It's the same thing about terrorism. If you want to fight terrorism, just ignore it. Don't change your lifestyle. Tell them to fuck off, but go about your day.

That was the George W Bush plan prior to 9/11/2001. Didn't work well.

Goodness, you are like an awful Counselor.

Counselor: Have you tried not letting it bother you?

Ok. You're on purpose misunderstanding me, and am now ridiculing me in order to try to bully me into silence.

While annoying it is what it is. I can't force you not to be an asshole. I simply have to navigate around it.

The CIA were executing Al Qaeda operatives left and right. They were involved in every major conflict in the middle east. 911 came as a response to that. If you think USA was being bullied and just tried to ignore the bullies, you are delusional. USA is the biggest bully on the playground. They were bullying the militant Muslims. 911 were the bullied children rising up and hitting back at their bully. You may not agree with their policies, but it is an accurate portrayal of the turn of events. If USA was the little weak bullied kid than how come both Afghanistan and Iraq were steamrolled in a matter of weeks. How come the most militantly muslim nation on Earth, Saudi Arabia, continually sucks American cock, their ideological polar opposite?

You have a warped understanding of world politics. You're like the Evangelical Christians in USA whining about the war on Christmas, as if you're the victim.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

No, but what are we going to do about it? What they want is to offend and get attention. If you want them to stop, then stop giving them attention for writing swastikas. It's really that simple. They want outrage. Stop getting outraged.

It's the same thing about terrorism. If you want to fight terrorism, just ignore it. Don't change your lifestyle. Tell them to fuck off, but go about your day.

That was the George W Bush plan prior to 9/11/2001. Didn't work well.

Goodness, you are like an awful Counselor.

Counselor: Have you tried not letting it bother you?

Ok. You're on purpose misunderstanding me, and am now ridiculing me in order to try to bully me into silence.

While annoying it is what it is. I can't force you not to be an asshole. I simply have to navigate around it.

Passive aggressively being a bully, by claiming being bullied and then name calling? Interesting subtext.

The CIA were executing Al Qaeda operatives left and right. They were involved in every major conflict in the middle east. 911 came as a response to that. If you think USA was being bullied and just tried to ignore the bullies, you are delusional. USA is the biggest bully on the playground. They were bullying the militant Muslims.

Well gosh, al Qaeda should have just ignored it then?

You have a warped understanding of world politics. You're like the Evangelical Christians in USA whining about the war on Christmas, as if you're the victim.

You are all over the place here.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

They what now? You appear to be claiming something with no context or reference, and then extrapolating it to broadbrush everything else.
Yeah, like I said, it is a lie we try to convince ourselves of.

The gays won. It was a successful strategy. They refused to let themselves be bullied. When they were shamed for being gay they had a pride parade.

You have grossfully oversimplified things here to try and make some point.

While it can still be bad to be gay today. It's many times better than it was just a couple of decades ago.

So the winning is still not quite as won?

It's important to understand and accept that we can't go through life not being offended. It's got to be cool for other people to say offensive things. The only thing we can control is how we react.

Cool?

 

[DrZoidberg]

Ok. You're on purpose misunderstanding me, and am now ridiculing me in order to try to bully me into silence.

While annoying it is what it is. I can't force you not to be an asshole. I simply have to navigate around it.

Passive aggressively being a bully, by claiming being bullied and then name calling? Interesting subtext.

The CIA were executing Al Qaeda operatives left and right. They were involved in every major conflict in the middle east. 911 came as a response to that. If you think USA was being bullied and just tried to ignore the bullies, you are delusional. USA is the biggest bully on the playground. They were bullying the militant Muslims.

Well gosh, al Qaeda should have just ignored it then?

You have a warped understanding of world politics. You're like the Evangelical Christians in USA whining about the war on Christmas, as if you're the victim.

You are all over the place here.

I don't think you have a foot to stand on here. Your position is incoherent

 

[laughing dog]

It's the same thing about terrorism. If you want to fight terrorism, just ignore it. Don't change your lifestyle. Tell them to fuck off, but go about your day.

Can you provide evidence of the success of your proposal?