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The World is Stupid

Man the right-wing is desperate to complain about people complaining.

Two GOP governors were stating their opposition to Pres. Biden's non-existent meat plan. And the right-wing is whining about letters from individuals. Talk about sleeping at the wheel folks.
 
Are there countries where it is normal to suddenly switch to different fingers for "three"?

China.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_number_gestures

Uses exactly the gestures he was using for 1, 2, 3.

No idea about other countries, I just knew China has a system to count to 10 on one hand so I figured some finger switches might be in there so I looked them up.

Well, not exactly; at least in the example photographs they aren't flashing itlike a gang sign dorsal side forward as in the video.
 
Odd that there are certain people here who are so absolutely certain the contestant acted innocently. Personally, I think it is roughly a fifty-fifty chance that the contestant intended to convey a subtle racist message.

One more thing that bothers me about the contestant's apology message is that he doesn't indicate ignorance OR knowledge of the existence of the racist symbolic gesture or offer any sort of regret for choosing that particular gesture for '3' over any other common gesture for '3'.

I mean there is no "whoops" aspect to his apology. There is no, "I would have done it differently if given another chance." His omission of any sort of accidental intention gives the impression that the shape his hand made is the only way he could imagine trying to symbolically represent the number '3'. That is just a little fishy.
 
I guess it’s possible that he really did think that’s how you show the number three. Just because I’ve never seen it means nothing.

I have recently encountered an American work colleague who uses a specific grammatical construct I had always used as a discriminator for non-native English speakers. Gotten me really confused about where he would have picked that up.
 
Odd that there are certain people here who are so absolutely certain the contestant acted innocently.

Why is that odd?

Personally, I think it is roughly a fifty-fifty chance that the contestant intended to convey a subtle racist message.

On what basis are you making that calculation?

One more thing that bothers me about the contestant's apology message is that he doesn't indicate ignorance OR knowledge of the existence of the racist symbolic gesture or offer any sort of regret for choosing that particular gesture for '3' over any other common gesture for '3'.

I mean there is no "whoops" aspect to his apology. There is no, "I would have done it differently if given another chance." His omission of any sort of accidental intention gives the impression that the shape his hand made is the only way he could imagine trying to symbolically represent the number '3'. That is just a little fishy.

So, an unequivocal apology makes you more suspicious?

I think the idea that anybody read anything into how somebody represented the number 'three' on his fingers is the kind of ludicrous non-event that I would expect at a witch trial. I saw Goody Fisher make a hand gesture to summon the devil.
 
I guess it’s possible that he really did think that’s how you show the number three.

It beggars belief people are now policing the way to indicate 'three' using fingers. Look! he indicated three using fingers that I would not have used! He's summoning the devil!
 
I guess it’s possible that he really did think that’s how you show the number three.

It beggars belief people are now policing the way to indicate 'three' using fingers. Look! he indicated three using fingers that I would not have used! He's summoning the devil!


You say that as if this were the very first time ever that anyone fabricated the idea that the way he held his hand could be construed as a gang sign.

Are you unaware of the use of this sign in America or are you ignoring the existence of it on purpose?
I’m really not sure where your “beggars belief” outrage is comng from.

Are you genuinely not aware that this is an ongoing issue in America?
 
I guess it’s possible that he really did think that’s how you show the number three.

It beggars belief people are now policing the way to indicate 'three' using fingers. Look! he indicated three using fingers that I would not have used! He's summoning the devil!


You say that as if thiss were the very first time ever thaat anyone fabricated the idea that the way he held his hand could be construed as a gang sign.

Are you unaware of the use of this sign in America or are you ignoring the existence of it on purpose?
I’m really not sure where your “beggars belief” outrage is comng from.

Are you genuinely not aware that this is an ongoing issue in America?

I didn't say I was outraged that people believe it. I said it beggars belief that minds can be so destroyed by this white supremacy phantasm. I read your post as satire at first. I thought 'oh, Rhea is making fun of people who are making something out of this nothingburger'.

But it wasn't satire. I can't believe things like this goes through people's heads. How do you live like this? How can a strongly-worded apology and condemnation of white supremacy not satisfy you? It's still 'fishy', still 'doubtful'? Do you think that if there was the hint of white supremacy about this guy, that Jeopardy's background checks would not have found it? Do you think the offense archaeologists haven't turned over his entire online history to see any indication of 'white supermacy'?

The man indicated the number 'three' by using three fingers that were next to each other, and he did it exactly the way I would do it. Your attitude is one of a witch-hunter.
 
It's also VERY commonly used in the NBA (and college basketball) to signify having made a 3-point shot. Come to think of it, I only see it that way, with middle/ring/and pinkie, never index/middle/ring. Not everything is white supremacy, folks. Get a grip.

That's true. But they're workin' on it!
 
It's also VERY commonly used in the NBA (and college basketball) to signify having made a 3-point shot. Come to think of it, I only see it that way, with middle/ring/and pinkie, never index/middle/ring. Not everything is white supremacy, folks. Get a grip.

Agreed, but context matters. If someone who supports separating kids from parents because immigration is a problem, listens to Stefan Molyneux believes their lucky number is 1488 and flashes that gesture, it's pretty obvious what they're all about. Considering Donahue's explanation was pretty piss weak, it's a near certainty he knew what he was doing. Whether he was just being a dick or means it, that's open to speculation.
 
Why is that odd?
Because nobody is a mind reader, and it would take one to know the true intentions and motivations of a stranger with certainty. Because as Dr. House insists, "Everybody lies." Especially after they are caught doing something naughty. Because racists and trolls who would like to pull this kind of stunt aren't rare by at all.

But you are right, I shouldn't find it odd. I have enough experience with the characters on this board that I shouldn't have expected any better out of them.

On what basis are you making that calculation?
Mostly on the basis of my personal life experience and extremely limited exposure to the character of this individual in question. Do you really care how I make my gut guesses? Fine...

Let's list the motivations for making that gesture: He could be a racist, a troll, an ignoramus, or innocent. If he's a racist or a troll, he intended to make a controversial gesture. If he is a ignoramus or innocent, then he didn't. So to use the "probabilistic fallacy" it comes out to a 50-50 split. ;) Just to be clear, I'm imagining an "ignoramus" might be a person who had no idea that that particular gesture was controversial, or a person who was tricked by another mischievous person to use that gesture.

To use different calculations, The number of white American men in this person's demographic who are solid racists (though they deny it) is maybe around 20-30%. Men in this demographic who are trolls who might like to pull a stunt like this regardless of their opinions on white supremacy are maybe around 5%. Men in this demographic who are completely ignorant of modern racial dog whistles like this might be as high as 50%. Men in this demographic who might only be focused on the impending game of Jeopardy so as to drive any and all other thoughts out the window might be as much as 70%.

But now we need to consider just how rare it is for a person in the western world to use that hand gesture to represent the number 3. I give that a 5% maximum which pushes the "innocent" probability down. And the additional information that the contestant didn't take the time to indicate any aspect of accidental happenstance to his explanation of the incident this pushes the "ignoramus" probability down. So the revised "innocent" rate gets adjusted to a generous 5% chance and the revised "ignoramus" rate gets cut in half, down to 25%. It's only cut by half and not 100% because he could just be trying to avoid admitting that he was completely ignorant of the gesture.

So we are left with my gut influenced probabilities of 25% racist, 5% troll, 25% ignoramus, 5% innocent. Again, 50-50 split.
One more thing that bothers me about the contestant's apology message is that he doesn't indicate ignorance OR knowledge of the existence of the racist symbolic gesture or offer any sort of regret for choosing that particular gesture for '3' over any other common gesture for '3'.

I mean there is no "whoops" aspect to his apology. There is no, "I would have done it differently if given another chance." His omission of any sort of accidental intention gives the impression that the shape his hand made is the only way he could imagine trying to symbolically represent the number '3'. That is just a little fishy.

So, an unequivocal apology makes you more suspicious?
Well, It isn't really an apology though. I was giving him credit by labeling it an apology when it was really just a repudiation of white supremacy and an explanation of how innocent he insists he is.
I think the idea that anybody read anything into how somebody represented the number 'three' on his fingers is the kind of ludicrous non-event that I would expect at a witch trial. I saw Goody Fisher make a hand gesture to summon the devil.
THIS statement is ludicrous. The next time you are out in public I dare you to indicate the number 'one' with your middle finger and then get just as upset when the other people take offence at your hand gesture.

In the context of a given culture, words have meaning. Body language has meanings. Get over it.
 
Because nobody is a mind reader, and it would take one to know the true intentions and motivations of a stranger with certainty. Because as Dr. House insists, "Everybody lies." Especially after they are caught doing something naughty. Because racists and trolls who would like to pull this kind of stunt aren't rare by at all.

But you are right, I shouldn't find it odd. I have enough experience with the characters on this board that I shouldn't have expected any better out of them.

So, you want people who do not see white supremacy in every inkblot to 'do better'? There is something wrong with those people?

Mostly on the basis of my personal life experience and extremely limited exposure to the character of this individual in question. Do you really care how I make my gut guesses? Fine...

Let's list the motivations for making that gesture: He could be a racist, a troll, an ignoramus, or innocent. If he's a racist or a troll, he intended to make a controversial gesture. If he is a ignoramus or innocent, then he didn't. So to use the "probabilistic fallacy" it comes out to a 50-50 split. ;) Just to be clear, I'm imagining an "ignoramus" might be a person who had no idea that that particular gesture was controversial, or a person who was tricked by another mischievous person to use that gesture.

What on earth makes you think each of those is equally likely?

To use different calculations, The number of white American men in this person's demographic who are solid racists (though they deny it) is maybe around 20-30%. Men in this demographic who are trolls who might like to pull a stunt like this regardless of their opinions on white supremacy are maybe around 5%. Men in this demographic who are completely ignorant of modern racial dog whistles like this might be as high as 50%. Men in this demographic who might only be focused on the impending game of Jeopardy so as to drive any and all other thoughts out the window might be as much as 70%.

But now we need to consider just how rare it is for a person in the western world to use that hand gesture to represent the number 3.

You have empirical evidence on how people in the western world indicate 'three' with their fingers?

I give that a 5% maximum which pushes the "innocent" probability down. And the additional information that the contestant didn't take the time to indicate any aspect of accidental happenstance to his explanation of the incident this pushes the "ignoramus" probability down. So the revised "innocent" rate gets adjusted to a generous 5% chance and the revised "ignoramus" rate gets cut in half, down to 25%. It's only cut by half and not 100% because he could just be trying to avoid admitting that he was completely ignorant of the gesture.

So we are left with my gut influenced probabilities of 25% racist, 5% troll, 25% ignoramus, 5% innocent. Again, 50-50 split.

"Accidental happenstance to the explanation of the incident"??

What?

Well, It isn't really an apology though. I was giving him credit by labeling it an apology when it was really just a repudiation of white supremacy and an explanation of how innocent he insists he is.

Wouldn't an innocent person insist on their innocence?

THIS statement is ludicrous. The next time you are out in public I dare you to indicate the number 'one' with your middle finger and then get just as upset when the other people take offence at your hand gesture.

In the context of a given culture, words have meaning. Body language has meanings. Get over it.

If you mean "flipping the bird is an unmistakeable insult to anyone born in the western world from the second half of the 20th century onwards", I agree.

If you think the majority of the public know anything about the 'okay' symbol being a dogwhistle for white supremacy, then I suggest you actually ask some people who are not in your social circle what they think it means.
 
If you think the majority of the public know anything about the 'okay' symbol being a dogwhistle for white supremacy, then I suggest you actually ask some people who are not in your social circle what they think it means.

Apparently over 450 Jeopardy! contestants know what it means.
 
Aren't we already in a situation where every possible hand gesture or symbol is an alt-right hand gesture or symbol?
 
If you think the majority of the public know anything about the 'okay' symbol being a dogwhistle for white supremacy, then I suggest you actually ask some people who are not in your social circle what they think it means.

Apparently over 450 Jeopardy! contestants know what it means.

Yes, you've convinced me. Former Jeopardy! contestants are a random sample of the American public, and those 450 contestants are a really good chunk of the tens of thousands of contestants who have appeared on over 8,000 episodes. This man was a white supremacist and anyone who denies it as a white supremacist himself.
 
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