This week in trans: extra prison time possible for misgendering

[none]

What an odd and revealing way to put it. It's not me that ultimately gets to decide what their gender is. That's up to them.
If any of my three boys were to come to me and express feelings that they are actually girls, i would not take it personally. I fear Metaphor would. He's made a judgment and it's final. Any niece becoming a nephew is an attack on Metaphor.
Or at the least, shaking the ground he's standing on.
It would not bother me that much. I certainly wouldn't take it as a failure of my ability to change nappies.

What is about "Boys have penises, Girls have vaginas" that you don't understand? It is the cornerstone of civilization. Without that recognition, we are no different than the eukaryots!!!!!

This binary exclusionary civility is the greatest achievement of western civilization unfortunately it only comes second to don't sleep with your sister.

 

[Jarhyn]

Why do you hate transgendered people so much? I really want to know/understand. What is it about their 'pronouns' that threaten your existence so much? As a rule, transgendered people are the most murdered, bullied, harassed and marginalized of all LGBTQ people (and probably of minority groups in general), so why the need to pile on?

I cannot speak for metaphor. But I can speak for myself and why I did something I view as similar in nature.

In high school I was bullied. I think the nadir is when a kid forced me to like up spit off a bus window. The same kid had a lot of problems with me. Mostly these were problems they invented and they were far from alone in doing it.

After enough bullying, I am ashamed to say that I just accepted this pattern as normal: that everyone bullies and everyone gets bullied. They got something from me, maybe I could get that something from someone else? Or something like that.

So despite being bullied, I found someone even weirder than me and I bullied them. A couple someones.

I expect the desire to pile on comes from the basic desire to participate and understand and be a part of the world that shaped them. It's not a 'need' though.

I expect that the kids who are most abused by their parents start the cycle. I know the house my bully grew up, the bearing of their parents, the reality of the lead pipes, the abusive patterns. Bullied kids learn that bullying makes you feel powerful as much as the bullied feels powerless. And when you have been so deprived of power and control over anything, least of all yourself, that can be enticing.

 

[Bomb#20]

Why do you hate transgendered people so much? I really want to know/understand. What is it about their 'pronouns' that threaten your existence so much? As a rule, transgendered people are the most murdered, bullied, harassed and marginalized of all LGBTQ people (and probably of minority groups in general), so why the need to pile on?

Meanwhile, in the infinitesimally different parallel universe where it was Muslims and not T* people who wound up at the top of the progressive stack, the Australian' government orders its citizens to say PBUH when they mention Muhammad and say Inshallah when they mention future events and never say "Israel" but call it "Jewish-occupied Palestine", on pain of fine. And Metaphor' refuses to obey these orders and insists he has a free-speech human right to openly disagree with his government, about these points and all others. And Playball40' says "Why do you hate Muslims so much? I really want to know/understand.".

 

[Bomb#20]

I'm uncertain how many transgender people need to exist for people to believe that transgender exists as an actual thing. It'd be like denying the existence of homosexuality. That is two with the same packaging wanting to boff each other. That isn't baseline, but it isn't particularly uncommon.

So why is the existence of transgendered so hard for people to accept, when we clearly see it out in the open.

That's the wrong question. The right question is, why is the existence of unbelievers so hard to accept, when we clearly see it out in the open? Why do so many religious people refuse to recognize that somebody else disagrees with their deeply held religious tenets, and instead make up some self-deluding off-the-wall different point they tell themselves is what the other guy disagrees with them about? Why do so many Christians make-believe that atheists agree that there's a God, but are just mad at him? Why do so many progressives make-believe that skeptics agree that being transgendered implies you're really the sex you wish you were, but just don't think anyone is transgendered?

Where the bejesus has Metaphor ever said transgendered people don't exist?

It is like we have to go through the same damn struggle every time.

Blacks suck!
Hey, I now know a black, and their friends and they are nice.. But homosexuals are deviant!
Hey, I now know a homosexual, and their friends and they are nice. But transgenders! They are crazy!
*give in ten years*

It is like we have to go through the same damn struggle every time.

Hey, he denies the supremacy of Yahweh over the other gods! He must be punished!
Hey, he denies the Olympian gods! He must be punished!
Hey, he denies the Divinity of Christ! He must be punished!
Hey, he denies that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah! He must be punished!
Hey, he denies the right of the White Man to enslave the Black Man! He must be punished!
Hey, he denies that the State will wither away! He must be punished!
Hey, he denies that Eddie Izzard is female! He must be punished!

 

[none]

If a person is labeled bad you don't have to feel guilty for mistreating them.

 

[WAB]

Amazing how the once sane and rational people at TFT are now bending over backwards to kiss the pleasant-smelling asshole of the corrupted STATE the world over and lick the boots of the gubmint authoritarianism they simultaneously pretend to hate.

Let's have a drink, none, and blow this joint. It's so fucked up now I don't think it's ever going to be the bastion of freethought it once was.

Come Concord, show me the meaning of haste!

 

[none]

I'm a Calvinist when it comes to sanity.. especially when it's convenient...

 

[Toni]

If a person is labeled bad you don't have to feel guilty for mistreating them.

Yep. And if they make you feel uncomfortable, then that's bad and it's their fault and so there's nothing wrong with mistreating them.

 

[Metaphor]

That's obviously untrue.

What is 'obviously' untrue?

You obviously make assumptions based upon how I've presented myself on this board. As far as you actually know, I am male and for the purposes of writing here, I have adopted a female persona.

Toni, do you read what I write? Let's say you've adopted a 'female persona' for this message board, and your sex is actually male. Would that mean you didn't know the sex of your children?

It's obviously untrue that you know always who is male and who is female in real life.

I have probably made some mistakes over the decades.

You do not and cannot and are actually legally forbidden to take blood samples and perform the appropriate genetic tests to determine sex. Nor do you pants individuals on the street to inspect or even glance at their genitalia. You make assumptions, as do we all, based upon how someone dresses, walks, carries themselves, wears their hair, etc. We all tend to think we can tell who is biologically male and who is biologically female but I'm certain we've all been a bit uncertain about some individuals and I'm also certain that we've all been wrong occasionally.

Yes. It is possible that, over the decades, I've been wrong about the sex of some people I've looked at. So....what?

 

[Metaphor]

I'm uncertain how many transgender people need to exist for people to believe that transgender exists as an actual thing.

What have I written, recently or at any time in my life, ever, makes you think I believe or have implied that 'transgender people don't exist'?

So why is the existence of transgendered so hard for people to accept, when we clearly see it out in the open. If two people with the same packaging want to boff because that is the wiring, why is it so hard to accept that some people, as Eddie Izaard (Transvestite Executive) puts it, are like a lesbian trapped in a man's body, and beyond?

That Eddie Izzard wants to have sex with women is news to nobody. I hear it is pretty common among men. Eddie Izzard may be a 'lesbian trapped in a man's body' in the same way I'm Henry Cavill trapped in a less famous and less rich and less shapely body.

I personally don't understand how they feel, but I appreciate that they feel it, that the human psyche is massively complicated and reproduction leads to personalities like this, hetero, homo, bi, trans.

Gay men and lesbians demanded that the State stop persecuting them and for their romantic partnerships to be recognised by the State.

We did not demand that people believe we were straight.

 

[Metaphor]

You've had a number of children, haven't you? Do you think you mis-sexed any of them?

What an odd and revealing way to put it. It's not me that ultimately gets to decide what their gender is. That's up to them.
If any of my three boys were to come to me and express feelings that they are actually girls, i would not take it personally. I fear Metaphor would. He's made a judgment and it's final. Any niece becoming a nephew is an attack on Metaphor.
Or at the least, shaking the ground he's standing on.
It would not bother me that much. I certainly wouldn't take it as a failure of my ability to change nappies.

What on earth are you talking about?

 

[WAB]

We all realize that you have an exceptionally binary outlook in life.

I like you Toni, but a statement like this is idiotic. It's factually untrue, based on what M has literally typed in his posts.

 

[Metaphor]

Why do you hate transgendered people so much?

I don't.

I really want to know/understand.

I sincerely doubt that.

What is it about their 'pronouns' that threaten your existence so much?

Individual trans people don't threaten my existence. The State punishing me for not uttering its prescribed prayers threatens my freedom. The Orwellian repurposing of language deliberately obscures facts.

As a rule, transgendered people are the most murdered,

Citation needed.

bullied, harassed and marginalized of all LGBTQ people (and probably of minority groups in general), so why the need to pile on?

Of the recent threads I've started, what is it precisely that you have failed to understand? Which of the events that I documented represent my "hatred"

 

[Metaphor]

You've had a number of children, haven't you? Do you think you mis-sexed any of them? Where you mistaken about their sex? I know the sex of all my nieces and nephews and all I had to do was change their nappies once.

I cannot speak for Toni, but I have six children. Yes, my youngest twin was assigned female at birth and that was incorrect. I am working with him and his endocrinologist to have it corrected on his birth certificate now.

So, does your child have a disorder of sexual development that gave them ambiguous genitalia? Or do you mean they have a 'gender identity' that does not match the sex implied by their genitalia?

 

[Metaphor]

So despite being bullied, I found someone even weirder than me and I bullied them. A couple someones.

Shock confession: Jarhyn was a bully in his youth. Since he still bullies people, I can't say I'm actually that shocked.

 

[Toni]

We all realize that you have an exceptionally binary outlook in life.

I like you Toni, but a statement like this is idiotic. It's factually untrue, based on what M has literally typed in his posts.

We'll have to just disagree here, then.

My reading of many/most of Metaphor's posts is that his view, as represented by his posts tend towards black/white yes/no right/wrong Metaphor/anyone who disagrees with him. Granted, I don't find his word choices or his arguments to be consistent at all times, but that's most of us.

Example in this thread: Metaphor is absolutely insistent that I failed to answer a question he posed, basically because I did not re-write his exact words with a yes/no/sometimes attached. I wrote a broader reply and he finds it unacceptable.

Moreover, he castigates me (and I don't disagree that he is correct) for sometimes using sex and gender to mean the same thing but according to him in this thread, sex is immutable and gender is just a thought and it is impossible to misgender someone because gender doesn't really exist. So, I find his thinking to be quite fluid in that respect, much like the Chesire Cat.

It's fine that you disagree with me or that anyone else disagrees with me. I write here to present my ideas, my POV, and sometimes some links or quotes to back them up. I don't engage or pretend to engage or attempt to engage in formal debate because I find that tedious and boring.

 

[Metaphor]

Moreover, he castigates me (and I don't disagree that he is correct) for sometimes using sex and gender to mean the same thing but according to him in this thread, sex is immutable and gender is just a thought and it is impossible to misgender someone because gender doesn't really exist.

EDIT: Extremely angry outburst removed.

I did not say it was impossible to misgender somebody because 'gender doesn't really exist'. I said when I use pronouns, the pronouns refer to a person's sex, and so they cannot be 'misgendered' by my pronoun use (though they could be mis-sexed).

 

[Toni]

Moreover, he castigates me (and I don't disagree that he is correct) for sometimes using sex and gender to mean the same thing but according to him in this thread, sex is immutable and gender is just a thought and it is impossible to misgender someone because gender doesn't really exist.

EDIT: Extremely angry outburst removed.

I did not say it was impossible to misgender somebody because 'gender doesn't really exist'. I said when I use pronouns, the pronouns refer to a person's sex, and so they cannot be 'misgendered' by my pronoun use (though they could be mis-sexed).

Right. You use words to mean what you want them to mean, not what the general public believes them to mean. At least when it suits you.

I'm honestly not writing words to make you angry.

This is how I think of sex and gender, and yes, I admit that I am sometimes sloppy about using one word when technically the other is a better choice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction

Again, still haven't updated my mouse---computer updates are way down my list of priorities as various household emergencies of the plumbing variety are taking priority with my spending, so I haven't copied/pasted any particular passage here. I'm not able to do that, I'm afraid.

 

[Playball40]

What have I written, recently or at any time in my life, ever, makes you think I believe or have implied that 'transgender people don't exist'?



That Eddie Izzard wants to have sex with women is news to nobody. I hear it is pretty common among men. Eddie Izzard may be a 'lesbian trapped in a man's body' in the same way I'm Henry Cavill trapped in a less famous and less rich and less shapely body.

I personally don't understand how they feel, but I appreciate that they feel it, that the human psyche is massively complicated and reproduction leads to personalities like this, hetero, homo, bi, trans.

Gay men and lesbians demanded that the State stop persecuting them and for their romantic partnerships to be recognised by the State.

We did not demand that people believe we were straight.

And yet you repeatedly want to deny the same rights and civility to transgendered persons. How hypocritical can you get?

 

[Metaphor]

Right. You use words to mean what you want them to mean, not what the general public believes them to mean. At least when it suits you.

No, Toni. I have always used pronouns to refer to a person's sex (if they are a person), or an object's gender (if it is an object like a ship or a country). This is not some specialist use I have conjured for myself. Indeed, ascribing 'gender' to humans did not begin to happen until the 1960s (as far as I can tell).

But, even if you believe me to be idiosyncratic and wrong in that use, I did not make the claim that I cannot misgender somebody because gender does not exist. I made the claim that using pronouns that apply to the person's sex cannot be misgendering them, because pronouns are used to describe sex (in people) and are silent about gender.

This is how I think of sex and gender, and yes, I admit that I am sometimes sloppy about using one word when technically the other is a better choice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction

And when I tell you my pronoun use for somebody else cannot possibly misgender them, please try and understand why that is true and don't make up falsehoods about it.