This week in trans: extra prison time possible for misgendering

[Metaphor]

What have I written, recently or at any time in my life, ever, makes you think I believe or have implied that 'transgender people don't exist'?



That Eddie Izzard wants to have sex with women is news to nobody. I hear it is pretty common among men. Eddie Izzard may be a 'lesbian trapped in a man's body' in the same way I'm Henry Cavill trapped in a less famous and less rich and less shapely body.

I personally don't understand how they feel, but I appreciate that they feel it, that the human psyche is massively complicated and reproduction leads to personalities like this, hetero, homo, bi, trans.

Gay men and lesbians demanded that the State stop persecuting them and for their romantic partnerships to be recognised by the State.

We did not demand that people believe we were straight.

And yet you repeatedly want to deny the same rights and civility to transgendered persons. How hypocritical can you get?

What rights and 'civility' am I denying to transgendered persons?

 

[repoman]

This is a zeitgeist shift that if you are too slow on or show obstinance past a nebulous point in time after the "phase shift" you will be fucked.

This is a done deal, you understand this Metaphor?

It doesn't matter if you are right, if enough people say you are wrong. Right or wrong on these topics literally are social constructs.

 

[Toni]

And yet you repeatedly want to deny the same rights and civility to transgendered persons. How hypocritical can you get?

What rights and 'civility' am I denying to transgendered persons?

The right to expect people to use the pronouns they feel reflect their gender.

 

[Metaphor]

And yet you repeatedly want to deny the same rights and civility to transgendered persons. How hypocritical can you get?

What rights and 'civility' am I denying to transgendered persons?

The right to expect people to use the pronouns they feel reflect their gender.

That is not a right anybody has. Forcing people, on pain of punishment by the State, to affirm 'gender' is morally wrong.

 

[Metaphor]

This is a done deal, you understand this Metaphor?

I believe it probably is a done deal, if the obstinacy, callousness, Orwellian language and mental contortions of the gender ideologists on this board is reflective of the wider population. But that does not mean I have to lie back and think of England. If you are going to force your religion on me, the least I can do is remind you that you are doing it.

 

[Toni]

Right. You use words to mean what you want them to mean, not what the general public believes them to mean. At least when it suits you.

No, Toni. I have always used pronouns to refer to a person's sex (if they are a person), or an object's gender (if it is an object like a ship or a country). This is not some specialist use I have conjured for myself. Indeed, ascribing 'gender' to humans did not begin to happen until the 1960s (as far as I can tell).

But, even if you believe me to be idiosyncratic and wrong in that use, I did not make the claim that I cannot misgender somebody because gender does not exist. I made the claim that using pronouns that apply to the person's sex cannot be misgendering them, because pronouns are used to describe sex (in people) and are silent about gender.

This is how I think of sex and gender, and yes, I admit that I am sometimes sloppy about using one word when technically the other is a better choice.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction

And when I tell you my pronoun use for somebody else cannot possibly misgender them, please try and understand why that is true and don't make up falsehoods about it.

I don’t understand why you wrote what you did after I posted my opinion and the link I posted with the Wikipedia discussion. If I am understanding you correctly, you believe that it is not only your right but the correct thing to do to refer to an individual with XY chromosomes who has always felt their apparent sex did not match the gender( see wiki link I posted) they feel: they feel female and wish to look female and be treated as a female. They undergo extensive counseling, medical exams, consult with endocrinologists, urologists, surgeons and other medical professionals, have gender confirming surgery and gave adopted and legally changed their name to a female sounding name, use a female same and have made all necessary and appropriate legal filings and documentation to establish themself as a legal female—-and you believe that not only is it your right but the correct thing to do to call them he/him.

Or do I have that incorrect?

 

[none]

The right to expect people to use the pronouns they feel reflect their gender.

That is not a right anybody has. Forcing people, on pain of punishment by the State, to affirm 'gender' is morally wrong.

People? Or just crazy folk?

 

[Metaphor]

If I am understanding you correctly, you believe that it is not only your right but the correct thing to do to refer to an individual with XY chromosomes

Chromosomes are not what I use to identify somebody's sex, but I assume here you mean male people.

who has always felt their apparent sex did not match the gender( see wiki link I posted) they feel: they feel female and wish to look female and be treated as a female. They undergo extensive counseling, medical exams, consult with endocrinologists, urologists, surgeons and other medical professionals, have gender confirming surgery and gave adopted and legally changed their name to a female sounding name, use a female same and have made all necessary and appropriate legal filings and documentation to establish themself as a legal female—-and you believe that not only is it your right but the correct thing to do to call them he/him.

It is absolutely, unquestionably, I'll-die-on-this-hill, my right to call them he/him. It is absolutely, unquestionably, I'll-die-on-this-hill morally wrong for the State to punish me for doing so. And it is fucking monstrous--MONSTROUS (is there a double underline?)--for the State to punish women in prison--women who cannot escape their fellow prisoners--for perceiving the sex of male inmates and using the appropriate-sexed pronoun when referring to them.

The absolute fucking state of gender ideologists. The fucking authoritarian hide of them. And the fucking sadistic gall of them to put their boot on my face and tell me I'm doing it to them.

In the past five years, gender ideologists have so polluted the zeitgeist with their unhuman and inhumane nonsense, I am starting to be sympathetic with the idea of feminist patriarchy theory. Because I am at a complete fucking loss to understand why males who are sexually attracted to females (what five years ago anybody would have called a heterosexual man) can now considered a lesbian, even as he uses his penis to have penis-in-vagina sex with a woman. "Men have the power and they just get whatever they want, especially at the expense of women" (patriarchy theory) is consistent with this scenario.

 

[none]

If I am understanding you correctly, you believe that it is not only your right but the correct thing to do to refer to an individual with XY chromosomes

Chromosomes are not what I use to identify somebody's sex, but I assume here you mean male people.

who has always felt their apparent sex did not match the gender( see wiki link I posted) they feel: they feel female and wish to look female and be treated as a female. They undergo extensive counseling, medical exams, consult with endocrinologists, urologists, surgeons and other medical professionals, have gender confirming surgery and gave adopted and legally changed their name to a female sounding name, use a female same and have made all necessary and appropriate legal filings and documentation to establish themself as a legal female—-and you believe that not only is it your right but the correct thing to do to call them he/him.

It is absolutely, unquestionably, I'll-die-on-this-hill, my right to call them he/him. It is absolutely, unquestionably, I'll-die-on-this-hill morally wrong for the State to punish me for doing so. And it is fucking monstrous--MONSTROUS (is there a double underline?)--for the State to punish women in prison--women who cannot escape their fellow prisoners--for perceiving the sex of male inmates and using the appropriate-sexed pronoun when referring to them.

The absolute fucking state of gender ideologists. The fucking authoritarian hide of them. And the fucking sadistic gall of them to put their boot on my face and tell me I'm doing it to them.

In the past five years, gender ideologists have so polluted the zeitgeist with their unhuman and inhumane nonsense, I am starting to be sympathetic with the idea of feminist patriarchy theory. Because I am at a complete fucking loss to understand why males who are sexually attracted to females (what five years ago anybody would have called a heterosexual man) can now considered a lesbian, even as he uses his penis to have penis-in-vagina sex with a woman. "Men have the power and they just get whatever they want, especially at the expense of women" (patriarchy theory) is consistent with this scenario.

Well, in honesty you could keep your mouth shut.
Maybe you have a boot fetish?

 

[Angra Mainyu]

I'm uncertain how many transgender people need to exist for people to believe that transgender exists as an actual thing. It'd be like denying the existence of homosexuality. That is two with the same packaging wanting to boff each other. That isn't baseline, but it isn't particularly uncommon.

Of course, transgender people exist. The meaning of words is defined by ostension. And it seems pretty clear that there are such people. Whether their claims are true is an entirely different matter. I do not have the belief that their claims are true. In fact, I believe nearly all of them are almost certainly false.

So why is the existence of transgendered so hard for people to accept, when we clearly see it out in the open. If two people with the same packaging want to boff because that is the wiring, why is it so hard to accept that some people, as Eddie Izaard (Transvestite Executive) puts it, are like a lesbian trapped in a man's body, and beyond?

Let us suppose there is a claim that, say, some human - let's say Alex - is like a lesbian trapped in a man's body. I will assess the claim, and then how it relates to transgender claims.

But first, let me ask you: what does the claim mean?

It seems to me it means Alex has the mind of a lesbian, but the body of a man. Is that what the claim means? Please confirm it if so, and If not, let me know what it means, so that I can address your question about how it is so hard to believe (these are not the right questions in this context, but I'll bite, if you could please confirm that my interpretation of the question is correct).

 

[none]

I'm uncertain how many transgender people need to exist for people to believe that transgender exists as an actual thing. It'd be like denying the existence of homosexuality. That is two with the same packaging wanting to boff each other. That isn't baseline, but it isn't particularly uncommon.

Of course, transgender people exist. The meaning of words is defined by ostension. And it seems pretty clear that there are such people. Whether their claims are true is an entirely different matter. I do not have the belief that their claims are true. In fact, I believe nearly all of them are almost certainly false.

So why is the existence of transgendered so hard for people to accept, when we clearly see it out in the open. If two people with the same packaging want to boff because that is the wiring, why is it so hard to accept that some people, as Eddie Izaard (Transvestite Executive) puts it, are like a lesbian trapped in a man's body, and beyond?

Let us suppose there is a claim that, say, some human - let's say Alex - is like a lesbian trapped in a man's body. I will assess the claim, and then how it relates to transgender claims.

But first, let me ask you: what does the claim mean?

It seems to me it means Alex has the mind of a lesbian, but the body of a man. Is that what the claim means? Please confirm it if so, and If not, let me know what it means, so that I can address your question about how it is so hard to believe (these are not the right questions in this context, but I'll bite, if you could please confirm that my interpretation of the question is correct).

Oh my.
Alex didn't use the word transgender you did, Alex says "go fuck yourself" by sending a kite.
There you go, maybe next time you'll listen read and learn.
Maybe make some wine in your cell, heck you'll have the time.

 

[Angra Mainyu]

Jimmy Higgins,

And let me just get a couple of things out of the way, assuming that saying that Alex is like a lesbian trapped in a man's body means Alex has a lesbian mind (i.e., the mind of a lesbian, the sort of mind that lesbians have, the kind of mind characteristic of lesbians, or however you put it), but the body of a man.

First, if there is no such thing as a lesbian mind, then the claim is false. So, the claim entails that there is such thing as a characteristic lesbian mind. I can go with that, but I wanted to point it out because it contradicts some Woke claims I've seen, so just in case.

Second, if lesbians have male minds, then it's trivial that ordinary men would be like lesbians "trapped" into a body of a man. But surely this claim entails something else. So, let's say lesbians do not have male minds - which is true, but I'm just getting things out of the way before I begin with more substantive points.

But please let me know whether I got the meaning of "a lesbian trapped in a man's body" right, and if not, what does that mean?

 

[none]

Jimmy Higgins,

And let me just get a couple of things out of the way, assuming that saying that Alex is like a lesbian trapped in a man's body means Alex has a lesbian mind (i.e., the mind of a lesbian, the sort of mind that lesbians have, the kind of mind characteristic of lesbians, or however you put it), but the body of a man.

First, if there is no such thing as a lesbian mind, then the claim is false. So, the claim entails that there is such thing as a characteristic lesbian mind. I can go with that, but I wanted to point it out because it contradicts some Woke claims I've seen, so just in case.

Second, if lesbians have male minds, then it's trivial that ordinary men would be like lesbians "trapped" into a body of a man. But surely this claim entails something else. So, let's say lesbians do not have male minds - which is true, but I'm just getting things out of the way before I begin with more substantive points.

But please let me know whether I got the meaning of "a lesbian trapped in a man's body" right, and if not, what does that mean?

You could straighten your situation out if you were like geesh, why do I try to use words like like when I'm like likable.

 

[Bomb#20]

just about 30 years ago, my twins were born premature.
They went into two different bays at the NICU.
First time my wife and I visited, the two nurses saw us and were finally able to fill out their forms. The nurse that saw me filled out the block that my kid was 'White.'
The other nurse saw my wife, filled out the block saying my kid was 'Black.'

It was fixed before the actual Birth Certificates were printed, as established by the law of the state they were born in (Single Drop Rule). But it strikes me, that such documentation is kinda like theories in Physics. Our attempts to label and describe the universe are easily swayed in incomplete information and inaccurate estimations. Plus, we sometimes give WAY too much credence to inappropriate clues.

Indeed so. Case in point. Funny story about human genetics: if a black person and a white person have sex and produce offspring, 99+% of the time the offspring will be genetically about half way between the parents' respective racial genetic makeups. On the other hand, if a male person and a female person have sex and produce offspring, 99+% of the time the offspring will be genetically nowhere near half way between the parents' respective sexual genetic makeups. 99+% of the time the child will simply be male or female. Because of this difference in the genetics of inheritance of the respective characteristics, jumping from what one knows about race to a conclusion about sex is an example of giving WAY too much credence to inappropriate clues.

 

[Bomb#20]

Having others expect you to not be the person you are, having people deny you the right to be recognized by the things you choose to say through your wardrobe and bearing rather than by "that which you did not choose" (though even in a simulated capacity) That may do some good towards really getting it.

Recognition is a thought in the mind of a recognizer. Where on earth did you get the notion that any person has a right to have other people think whatever way he wants them to?

In Russia they have a saying about abortion rights: Boss in belly. You'd endorse that principle, wouldn't you? Well, Boss in brain. You wouldn't let third parties own a woman's belly; so why the hell do you feel third parties own her brain?

 

[Bomb#20]

If a person is labeled bad you don't have to feel guilty for mistreating them.

So who labeled transgendered people bad?

Yep. And if they make you feel uncomfortable, then that's bad and it's their fault and so there's nothing wrong with mistreating them.

Ah, asked and answered. It was Toni who who labeled transgendered people bad.

(Of course, Toni wasn't labeling transgendered people bad on her own account; she was putting those words in somebody else's mouth, which makes what she said okay. Oh, wait, no it doesn't.)

 

[Bomb#20]

Right. You use words to mean what you want them to mean, not what the general public believes them to mean.

Oh for the love of god. If you sincerely believe that it's your and your coreligionists' word usage, and not Metaphor's word usage, that matches the way the general public use words like "he", "she", "man", "woman", "male" and "female", then you live in an ideological echo chamber and you need to get out more and talk to some regular people.

 

[none]

Right. You use words to mean what you want them to mean, not what the general public believes them to mean.

Oh for the love of god. If you sincerely believe that it's your and your coreligionists' word usage, and not Metaphor's word usage, that matches the way the general public use words like "he", "she", "man", "woman", "male" and "female", then you live in an ideological echo chamber and you need to get out more and talk to some regular people.

Is this about genitals?

 

[JohnG]

The OP is BS. This rule is inline with their policy of being respectful to other inmates. The anti trans war is some weird homophobic nonsense.

 

[DrZoidberg]

Deliberately misgendering people could be considered bullying or harassment. In a prison setting, it would be difficult to escape such harassment. I understand the reasoning behind such rules.

I wonder if there is an issue in male prisons with transgendered men being harassed, etc. and what the policies there are. Anybody know?

Exactly. Deliberate misgendering is a form of harassment. And in prison you can't just walk away from your harasser.

I'm sorry but that's insane. No, it isn't.