Tipping - Who are you actually going to be tipping?

[Toni]

Yes, the money is regarded as the server's money in the scenario I described. But it was also considered good form to tip out back of the house. My kid had a great relationship with everyone back of the house because she never neglected this, even on bad nights. In return, her orders were up pretty quick.

I admit that I am really torn regarding tips. I know how much my kids have depended upon tips for their livelihood. They were lucky enough to work in some pretty decent to extremely good places so that helped with the tips. I know that dishwashers get paid crap and cooks don't get paid decently either.

In my ideal world, everyone would earn a decent wage.

I've worked in anti-poverty programs before, so I've seen the problems low wages create (and have lived it, too, although I was lucky that it was brief). My town is extremely working class, with local employers paying very poorly and offering terrible benefits packages. When they can, they limit hours available to just under the minimum required to provide even those terrible benefits. What this does is create a large group of people who live so close to the edge that they often fall off of it, even working two or three part time jobs. The stress that this creates in their life simply makes their situation worse. It greatly increases the amount of substance abuse, mostly alcohol, but not entirely. It exacerbates mental health issues, physical health issues, weight issues, education issues and effectively robs their kids of parents who have the luxury of doing anything other than parking their kids in front of a screen while they try to recover from their day/night. It adds to instability of marriages and other relationships. It creates and maintains an underclass which needs the largess of the more fortunate just to survive. Employers use unreliability of workers to justify low wages, refusing to accept that their low wages create so much stress and financial insecurity that they must juggle multiple jobs, constantly worry about their kids, worry about losing phone and lights (in winter, you cannot have your heat cut in my area), their homes. And so, they drink. A lot. Which is not a good way to solve their problem and only creates more but it is easily available and lets them escape for a few hours from the unrelenting stress of not being able to make ends meet.

Access to better and affordable job training and educational programs would really help--but I know plenty of people with good degrees working some pretty low paying jobs.

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I'd think it's a nice idea if the employers were required it divide the tips evenly, but they were also privy to what servers were getting tipped or not.

And no, I have no mathematical equation to know that I'm right or wrong.

:EDIT:

And if you eat out, you always bring cash

I ALWAYS tip in cash, even if I am charging my meal. And I tip well. Applies to the wonderful woman who does my hair and any other tip-dependent person I encounter.

It all boils down to insecurity. Not only do employers foster insecurity among their workers, the entire class war against the workers is based on increasing workers' insecurity wherever they can. The battle against inflation by the Fed is focused like a laser on wages and the only solution that they use is to increase unemployment by raising interest rates, ignoring the most obvious solution, increasing taxes to absorb the excess cash in the economy. Or to embark on the largest foreign aid project in history by moving a large part of our industrial production to China, nominally one of our two largest potential enemies, providing corporations with a club to use in wage negotiations, that we can move your job to China. Or to have the economic policies of the US zeroed in on increasing profits and not wages to the point that they are actively supporting profits and actively suppressing wages, suppressing unions, refusing to raise the minimum wage, etc. Or producing a race to the bottom to provide tax relief to attract manufacturing and other facilities from other jurisdictions, started by Mississippi thirty years ago when they were fiftieth out of fifty in almost all areas in economic development, responsible for propelling them to where they are today, still fiftieth out of fifty with a much lowered tax base due to all of the tax easements they provided. Or expanding and spreading talk about the effect of automation costing jobs at a time when spending for automation is decreasing and has produced productivity increases to zero.

Everything that the Milton Friedman neoliberals proposed and the Republicans, movement conservatives and Libertarians (because libertarians are different than conservatives and definitely are not just Republicans who want to do drugs legally) enthusiastically adopted increased the insecurity of workers. People who are afraid of losing their jobs don't ask for higher wages. People who are afraid of losing their jobs don't complain about their working conditions. People who are afraid of losing their jobs don't complain about not having healthcare insurance for their families or about increasing co-payments and higher deductibles.

I won't disagree with you but I think you're thinking much too big here. Most restaurants, even extremely successful ones, operate on a pretty thin margin. I think most of the insecurity isn't a plot so much as it is a spillover of insecurity about the entire individual restaurant. If it's a chain, then add the layer of needing to please corporate.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The battle against inflation by the Fed is focused like a laser on wages and the only solution that they use is to increase unemployment by raising interest rates, ignoring the most obvious solution, increasing taxes to absorb the excess cash in the economy.

Obvious but very wrong.

1) Taxes are slow.

2) Taxes don't have the multiplier effect that interest rates do.

The reason the feds focus on interest rates is they are by far the most effective lever.

 

[Frikki]

the restaurant I worked out, the bussers were traditionally tipped about 1/3 of the waiters' takings. On busy days, each waiter/busser was a team, but most of the time, there were 2 bussers/3 waiters. However, bussing was classified differently, so they got paid actual min wage (around $6.50 at the time), so it roughly evened out. I generally preferred bussing tables for that reason. We didn't pool tips, and would only occasionally tip the kitchen (for special orders or they really went out of their way for something). Having the restaurant control it would suck.

Yea, if the pay were equal, I'd 10 times rather buss than wait tables. The waiter has to deal with a lot of crap.

I think that cooking is the most high stress job, and is usually not well paid. Servers come immediately after that, though.


Asking our European friends: I believe that in most cases, a gratuity is included in the bill after a meal at a restaurant. Who gets the gratuity? How are cooks and chefs compensated relative to how waitstaff is compensated?

Here where I am we solve this problem by paying waitstaff a living wage and people who make waiting their profession can make a good living and if you work after 1800 you make time and a half.

 

[J842P]

I think that cooking is the most high stress job, and is usually not well paid. Servers come immediately after that, though.


Asking our European friends: I believe that in most cases, a gratuity is included in the bill after a meal at a restaurant. Who gets the gratuity? How are cooks and chefs compensated relative to how waitstaff is compensated?

Here where I am we solve this problem by paying waitstaff a living wage and people who make waiting their profession can make a good living and if you work after 1800 you make time and a half.

In the state where I worked, servers who worked over-time would get time and a half *of the non-tipped minimum wage*, so basically, this never happened, because it would increase the overhead by a significant amount. At least, I never saw it happen for more than a few hours, maybe during the holidays.


In any event, yes, it would be great if there wasn't this asinine historically baggage around tipping, but servers in the US can make really good money. Again, it being a "tip" is just a weird social thing, it's simply what you are suppose to pay your server. Everyone does it. Only once or twice have I ever heard of someone straight-out not tipping, and usually it's because of some crazy circumstance, or the people were foreign and didn't understand.

 

[RavenSky]

Over here, the crazy socialists in our government, totally failed to grasp the meaning of the phrase 'minimum wage', and insisted that all employees should have a set wage as the minimum that could be paid per hour.

By bizarrely not allowing some people to be paid less than the minimum, and by setting the minimum at a level sufficient for somebody who earns it to survive, they created a culture in which tips are a rarity, and only given or expected for extraordinary service.

This really sucks, if you are a moderately wealthy person who eats out a lot and really gets off on being surrounded by sycophants whose very livelihood is in your hands, and who you can therefore get away with treating like shit.

But it's pretty good for everyone else.

It's been said that there is nothing worse than doing, with great efficiency, that which should not be done at all. But the glorious land of the free has once again proven that one thing worse is to do it with great inefficiency.

Putting the remuneration of service staff in the hands of the customer almost sounds like a good idea, at least hypothetically. But to then force them to share that money, or even allow their employers to simply pocket it, renders it incapable of working as designed - even if it had been a sound hypothesis to begin with (which observation of reality suggests it was not).

This is an excellent example of how to make a bad situation even worse. Here's an idea - if someone is employed, have their employer pay them a wage equal to or greater than the "minimum wage". It works here; I fail to grasp how anyone can be confident that it wouldn't work anywhere else.

Theoretically, this would only apply to servers (and bartenders, I presume) that DO already make at least minimum wage. The problem, however, is that in the U.S. "minimum wage" is not at all the same thing as a living wage.

I do agree with your general premise: pay at least a living wage and do away with mandatory tipping

 

[Toni]

I think that cooking is the most high stress job, and is usually not well paid. Servers come immediately after that, though.


Asking our European friends: I believe that in most cases, a gratuity is included in the bill after a meal at a restaurant. Who gets the gratuity? How are cooks and chefs compensated relative to how waitstaff is compensated?

Here where I am we solve this problem by paying waitstaff a living wage and people who make waiting their profession can make a good living and if you work after 1800 you make time and a half.

I think this is probably better but I also am almost certain that what would happen is that servers at nicer establishments would see a net decrease in compensation. I've talked about it with my kids who worked as wait staff and their feelings are mixed. One worked at pretty upscale establishments and earned very good tips; the other worked at a more struggling establishment in an up and coming neighborhood--and really, really struggled. Some of the clientele was...rough and occasionally needed to be asked to leave. He would have been grateful for a decent hourly wage.

 

[DBT]

If it hasn't been said already, there should be no expectation of tips. Everyone who is gainfully employed should be getting a decent wage or salary in return for contributing their time, skill and effort on behalf of keeping the business running.

 

[Worldtraveller]

If it hasn't been said already, there should be no expectation of tips. Everyone who is gainfully employed should be getting a decent wage or salary in return for contributing their time, skill and effort on behalf of keeping the business running.

And to be fair. This is how most civilized countries operate. But not 3rd world countries like the US.

 

[Toni]

If it hasn't been said already, there should be no expectation of tips. Everyone who is gainfully employed should be getting a decent wage or salary in return for contributing their time, skill and effort on behalf of keeping the business running.

And to be fair. This is how most civilized countries operate. But not 3rd world countries like the US.

The US is not even close to a third world country, despite the efforts of Republicans. I can understand your confusion if you really live in AZ.

As far as tipping in the 'civilized world,' unless you consider only Asia to be 'civilized,' you are mistaken about tipping:

https://europeupclose.com/article/tipping-in-europe/

https://europeupclose.com/article/tipping-in-europe/

https://wonderfulwanderings.com/tipping-in-south-america/

http://www.africatravelresource.com/tipping-on-safari-in-africa/

https://www.tripsavvy.com/tipping-in-asia-1458307

 

[DBT]

It doesn't matter which country practices what when it comes to tipping, the principles of fairness and justice demands that any employee contributing to the running of a business, time, skill, ability and effort, should get a fair and just wage or salary for their work and not depend on customers to subsidize their income.

 

[Axulus]

It doesn't matter which country practices what when it comes to tipping, the principles of fairness and justice demands that any employee contributing to the running of a business, time, skill, ability and effort, should get a fair and just wage or salary for their work and not depend on customers to subsidize their income.

Do you think an employee has zero responsibility or ability to choose a job that compensates them in line with their contribution to the endeavor? The only way handle the situation is big government?

 

[J842P]

It doesn't matter which country practices what when it comes to tipping, the principles of fairness and justice demands that any employee contributing to the running of a business, time, skill, ability and effort, should get a fair and just wage or salary for their work and not depend on customers to subsidize their income.

Yes, it would be ideal if servers had wages like any other employee. However, for several historical reasons, we've sort of arrived at a local minimum which escaping out of would require bad things for servers. Currently, with tips, the average server is making something like 18% (depending on the region, most regions 20% is expected, but that could be 15% in certain parts of the country) all said and done. They already *have* to make at least minimum wage if tips don't amount to it.

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It doesn't matter which country practices what when it comes to tipping, the principles of fairness and justice demands that any employee contributing to the running of a business, time, skill, ability and effort, should get a fair and just wage or salary for their work and not depend on customers to subsidize their income.

Do you think an employee has zero responsibility or ability to choose a job that compensates them in line with their contribution to the endeavor? The only way handle the situation is big government?

It would be a race to the bottom with regards to wages if there were no price floors.

 

[Worldtraveller]

It doesn't matter which country practices what when it comes to tipping, the principles of fairness and justice demands that any employee contributing to the running of a business, time, skill, ability and effort, should get a fair and just wage or salary for their work and not depend on customers to subsidize their income.

Do you think an employee has zero responsibility or ability to choose a job that compensates them in line with their contribution to the endeavor? The only way handle the situation is big government?

Considering the history of workers vs. companies? Yes.

This concludes today's episode of easy answers to dumb questions!

 

[bilby]

It doesn't matter which country practices what when it comes to tipping, the principles of fairness and justice demands that any employee contributing to the running of a business, time, skill, ability and effort, should get a fair and just wage or salary for their work and not depend on customers to subsidize their income.

Do you think an employee has zero responsibility or ability to choose a job that compensates them in line with their contribution to the endeavor? The only way handle the situation is big government?

Not zero. But in most cases, very little; and the only way to handle that situation is government legislation (which need not be particularly 'big').

So the answer to your loaded question is technically 'no' (as you engineered it to be); but had you asked a fair question along the same lines, (eg 'Do you think an employee has too little ability to choose a job that compensates them in line with their contribution to the endeavor? The only way handle the situation is for government to tip the balance back, and prohibit a 'race to the bottom' on pay and conditions?' the answer would have been 'yes'.

 

[Axulus]

It doesn't matter which country practices what when it comes to tipping, the principles of fairness and justice demands that any employee contributing to the running of a business, time, skill, ability and effort, should get a fair and just wage or salary for their work and not depend on customers to subsidize their income.

Do you think an employee has zero responsibility or ability to choose a job that compensates them in line with their contribution to the endeavor? The only way handle the situation is big government?

Not zero. But in most cases, very little; and the only way to handle that situation is government legislation (which need not be particularly 'big').

So the answer to your loaded question is technically 'no' (as you engineered it to be); but had you asked a fair question along the same lines, (eg 'Do you think an employee has too little ability to choose a job that compensates them in line with their contribution to the endeavor? The only way handle the situation is for government to tip the balance back, and prohibit a 'race to the bottom' on pay and conditions?' the answer would have been 'yes'.

Where are you getting your info on "very little"? People in service jobs have almost no problem whatsoever in finding the same job at a different company whenever they want to. These are some of the most plentiful jobs and easiest to obtain jobs, especially for someone with experience.

 

[Axulus]

It would be a race to the bottom with regards to wages if there were no price floors.

No it would not. Where do you think wage growth comes from? Government?

 

[bilby]

Not zero. But in most cases, very little; and the only way to handle that situation is government legislation (which need not be particularly 'big').

So the answer to your loaded question is technically 'no' (as you engineered it to be); but had you asked a fair question along the same lines, (eg 'Do you think an employee has too little ability to choose a job that compensates them in line with their contribution to the endeavor? The only way handle the situation is for government to tip the balance back, and prohibit a 'race to the bottom' on pay and conditions?' the answer would have been 'yes'.

Where are you getting your info on "very little"? People in service jobs have almost no problem whatsoever in finding the same job at a different company whenever they want to. These are some of the most plentiful jobs and easiest to obtain jobs, especially for someone with experience.

People in service jobs have almost no problem whatsoever in finding the same job at a different company whenever they want to. But finding the same job at a different company where they are paid more, commensurate with their skills and experience, is almost impossible.

 

[DBT]

It doesn't matter which country practices what when it comes to tipping, the principles of fairness and justice demands that any employee contributing to the running of a business, time, skill, ability and effort, should get a fair and just wage or salary for their work and not depend on customers to subsidize their income.

Do you think an employee has zero responsibility or ability to choose a job that compensates them in line with their contribution to the endeavor? The only way handle the situation is big government?

The relationship between employer and employees being heavily weighted in favour of the Employer -unless there is a labour shortage - the employer acts in self interest by seeking to maximizing profit rather than what doing what is fair, decent and just by paying a decent wage in exchange for the skills, time and effort of their employees... which is essentially a partnership in the running of any business that requires employees.

 

[Axulus]

Not zero. But in most cases, very little; and the only way to handle that situation is government legislation (which need not be particularly 'big').

So the answer to your loaded question is technically 'no' (as you engineered it to be); but had you asked a fair question along the same lines, (eg 'Do you think an employee has too little ability to choose a job that compensates them in line with their contribution to the endeavor? The only way handle the situation is for government to tip the balance back, and prohibit a 'race to the bottom' on pay and conditions?' the answer would have been 'yes'.

Where are you getting your info on "very little"? People in service jobs have almost no problem whatsoever in finding the same job at a different company whenever they want to. These are some of the most plentiful jobs and easiest to obtain jobs, especially for someone with experience.

People in service jobs have almost no problem whatsoever in finding the same job at a different company whenever they want to. But finding the same job at a different company where they are paid more, commensurate with their skills and experience, is almost impossible.

Since owners keeping tips is atypical/rare, your claim does not hold up in those cases.

Those type of establishments will tend to go out of business due to staffing problems.

 

[coloradoatheist]

It doesn't matter which country practices what when it comes to tipping, the principles of fairness and justice demands that any employee contributing to the running of a business, time, skill, ability and effort, should get a fair and just wage or salary for their work and not depend on customers to subsidize their income.

Do you think an employee has zero responsibility or ability to choose a job that compensates them in line with their contribution to the endeavor? The only way handle the situation is big government?

The relationship between employer and employees being heavily weighted in favour of the Employer -unless there is a labour shortage - the employer acts in self interest by seeking to maximizing profit rather than what doing what is fair, decent and just by paying a decent wage in exchange for the skills, time and effort of their employees... which is essentially a partnership in the running of any business that requires employees.

If that was the case, then businesses that employee the highest number of minimum wage workers would be the highest profit margin and least likely to fail businesses. Do restaurants fit that criteria?