Split Trans Issues, Split from Roe v Wade is on deck

[Politesse]

Or why you are attacking me for stating the fact that a lot of women would be frightened or re-traumatized if they see what reasonably appears to them to ve a naked man in their space.

I didn't.

 

[Politesse]

I don’t know or care why you have decided that I am a trans exclusionary feminist.

Because you champion women's rights and women's perspectives, but exclude trans women and girls from that definition.

 

[Bomb#20]

Because you've been posting here for nearly a decade, and for the majority of that you didn't bother to try to hide your sex as a male. There's nothing curious about it.

But also, my little pronoun box has always said "nonbinary", I have never changed it, there's no pretending involved.

It hasn't always. It used to say "All pronouns fine." Can't say whether you're the one who changed it, but someone did.

You've just always misgendered me.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

 

[Politesse]

Because you've been posting here for nearly a decade, and for the majority of that you didn't bother to try to hide your sex as a male. There's nothing curious about it.

But also, my little pronoun box has always said "nonbinary", I have never changed it, there's no pretending involved.

It hasn't always. It used to say "All pronouns fine." Can't say whether you're the one who changed it, but someone did.

You've just always misgendered me.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

That is the same thing. People (including a mod) complained that it wasn't clear what that meant so I switched to a more common, if slightly misleading, term to describe the same situation. I have never identified as exclusively male, though.

 

[Bomb#20]

But also, my little pronoun box has always said "nonbinary", I have never changed it, there's no pretending involved.

It hasn't always. It used to say "All pronouns fine." Can't say whether you're the one who changed it, but someone did.

That is the same thing. People (including a mod) complained that it wasn't clear what that meant so ....

Bizarre. I wouldn't have thought "All pronouns fine" was susceptible to more than one interpretation. Ah, well, I guess we'll always be people divided by a common language...

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I don’t know or care why you have decided that I am a trans exclusionary feminist.

Because you champion women's rights and women's perspectives, but exclude trans women and girls from that definition.

If that is what you are getting from Toni's posts, she has wasted her time trying to communicate.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I am really and genuinely curious as to why you think you know what my biological sex is.

Because you've been posting here for nearly a decade, and for the majority of that you didn't bother to try to hide your sex as a male. There's nothing curious about it.

In other words, that's how I identify, so you assume it is true? Like any normal, decent person would do? Why then do you say "regardless of how you choose to identify"?

The word "choose" is quite possibly one of the most ugly passive aggressive terms regarding transgenders used by people like Emily Lake, TSwizzle, and the like. You see them use it repeatedly.

 

[Jarhyn]

I am really and genuinely curious as to why you think you know what my biological sex is.

Because you've been posting here for nearly a decade, and for the majority of that you didn't bother to try to hide your sex as a male. There's nothing curious about it.

In other words, that's how I identify, so you assume it is true? Like any normal, decent person would do? Why then do you say "regardless of how you choose to identify"?

The word "choose" is quite possibly one of the most ugly passive aggressive terms regarding transgenders used by people like Emily Lake, TSwizzle, and the like. You see them use it repeatedly.

Yeah, for all it seems innocuous on the surface, the use of the word has a deeply malicious barb on it, insofar as none of this was strictly "chosen" by "us".

Rather it was "selected" by processes that long-predate the emergence of "us" in positions where "choices" might be meaningfully rendered by "us".

It was selected by a biology and a process that created a "text" of a person, and now "there is only the text", and there isn't even a viable route for an individual to "choose" otherwise after the fact.

It is as ugly and aggressive as the Christian who says people "choose" be sinners, and "choose" not to believe the unbelievable, and use this "choice" they claim is made as an excuse to maim, torture, and kill the nonbeliever.

Its one of the most frustrating things to me, and one of the things that got me into studying determinism, hard Determinism, and to ultimately seek to build a compatibilist accounting.

 

[Politesse]

True, but then, I'm not sure the average person is capable of talking about transgendered folks at all without a little bit of passive aggression. You cannot hate part of yourself without some small part of that hatred landing on someone else, however unintentionally or passively. And men and women are not actually different enough that men can freely hate women or women men, without also hating some part of themselves. Even our genitals are a very slight remix on a common organic theme. As for our social roles? There's no one who is wholly without the qualities "assigned" to the supposedly opposite sex. Men care about others sometimes. Women want to win sometimes. Men are capable of handicrafts. Women can do math. Why do you think it's so easy to whip men up about abortion, or custody issues? The maternal instinct isn't absent from them, it's been twisted and deformed by the language of power and money but it is very much there.

 

[Toni]

I don’t know or care why you have decided that I am a trans exclusionary feminist.

Because you champion women's rights and women's perspectives, but exclude trans women and girls from that definition.

Since I have repeatedly said the opposite, I will just assume that you either are struggling emotionally with the idea that people cannot immediately discern that a non/pre surgical trans woman who retains a visible penis is a trans woman and therefore have decided that my stance that stalls with doors would help everyone in a women’s only space feel safe—something that at some point you yourself thought was a good idea—

Or because you remember that I expressed distress about the individual teen who is or claims to be trans and has at two different t schools sexually assaulted girls ( do not know or care if they are cis or trans—rape is rape whether the racist is visor trans, maje or female) in girls restrooms, claiming to be trans. Emily’s position is that this individual is faking the trans; my position is that it doesn’t matter. Everybody should be free and safe to use bathroom facilities and locker rooms and nobody deserves to be sexually assaulted.

Emily believes. Being trans is a mental disorder. I believe in the science that says there are physical differences in brain Abd genetic structures that create these differences .

Maybe you have us confused.

Maybe you have some issue with me and have decided this is the hill upon which we battle to the death.

Or, since we are cross posting here and I just read your post above, you have decided I’m someone to hate because I’m a woman.

We all have some amount of self loathing at some point in our lives. The best we can do is to try to love ourselves and be the best we can. And not externalizing it and dumping it in other people.

I do not give a shit which, which combination of those or something entirely different.

Those are all a you problem. I can’t fix it for you.

 

[Politesse]

Since I have repeatedly said the opposite, I will just assume that you either are struggling emotionally with the idea that people cannot immediately discern that a non/pre surgical trans woman who retains a visible penis is a trans woman and therefore have decided that my stance that stalls with doors would help everyone in a women’s only space feel safe—something that at some point you yourself thought was a good idea—

I don't just want women to feel safe, I want them to actually be safe. And all women, not just those who adhere to a particular gender norm. Scapegoating a minority and using that fear to justify legal discrimination between the sexes is making everyone less safe, men and women, cis and trans, but women the least safe of all. When there are two codes of law, one for men and one for women, it will never be to female advantage. That is just not how the cookie crumbles. The Fourteenth Amendment saved this country from social collapse, I truly believe that. Any erosion of its principles is a danger to everyone. I get than when you are spreading horror stories about rapist trans teenagers, you don't think you are advocating for discriminating against their class, but when everyone is talking about rapist trans teenagers and no one is asking questions about middle aged suburban dads, the seeds of far right extremism are being sown. Fear, paranoia, hate - these are the emotions that erode and unravel civil norms and the protection of law, in every society.

And sgain, I have no problem with single stalls or doors, except that they don't meaningfully exist, so they are not a true alternative to the much more politically prevalent, and violent, "solutions" of the Christian Right. Now, if you were advocating to FORCE any business that wants to discriminate between sexes to provide safe alternatives that eould be a different matter. But that is not the position of either political party. What you're doing is the equivslent of saying, it's okay to have black and white fountains as long as a race-neutral fountain is also provided. Which, would have been a legal option, and was an option some businesses tried back in the day. Hell, they could do that now in most states, few states have specific fountain legislation. But it isn't the option that our society ultimately chose. Why not?

 

[Toni]

Being political in nature does nit preclude therapy. If you demonstrate how it addressed Toni’s question, your explanation would be more convincing,

Toni is trying to make a personal issue out of a political and legal question that affects far more people thsn just her. My opinions on what rights should belong to a citizen have nothing to do with who said what and when in this thread.

I thought you were first to resort to personal attacks,

The objection I have gotten to universal stalls from Loren and you is both that it would be expensive and people wouldn’t like it.

Your counter is that we should just have universal unisex facilities. Anyone who is uncomfortable using them or opposes your suggestion is either a silly religious nut or a bigot and certainly an anti trans zealot. Which you’ve accused me of being because I think the feelings and needs of all women should be considered. Not just cis women. All women. Btw, women are generally not thrilled when anyone of any sex, gender or sexual orientation invades their space or privacy or tells them what they must tolerate.

Having boundaries is healthy. You don’t have to like another person’s boundaries but you really should respect them.

This is not always easy or convenient. It’s an issue right now in my own family of siblings. But boundary is a boundary.

Oh no. I would fucking LOVE it if you learned what a personal boundary was. Who the fuck ever gave you the right to tell anyone else what they are, or what their personal experiences have been? Who even are you? No one I know, and I do not pretend to. You have no right to characterize my genitals, my disposition, my mind, or my morality. None at all. You have the right to say who you are, if you must, but not a right to tell strangers who they are, uninvited and unwelcome.

I do not care a bit about what is or is not in your underwear. Even if you were in the room next to me and not someone typing at me.

I have not mentioned your genitals because I am not your physician in an exam room with you nor am I a potential sex partner. That is a boundary and you deciding that I have brought it up is a figment of your imagination. In the past you have given the impression that you are male and I assume that is true and I do not assume that is determined by what is in your pants.

Get over yourself.

 

[Toni]

Since I have repeatedly said the opposite, I will just assume that you either are struggling emotionally with the idea that people cannot immediately discern that a non/pre surgical trans woman who retains a visible penis is a trans woman and therefore have decided that my stance that stalls with doors would help everyone in a women’s only space feel safe—something that at some point you yourself thought was a good idea—

I don't just want women to feel safe, I want them to actually be safe. And all women, not just those who adhere to a particular gender norm. Scapegoating a minority and using that fear to justify legal discrimination between the sexes is making everyone less safe, men and women, cis and trans, but women the least safe of all. When there are two codes of law, one for men and one for women, it will never be to female advantage. That is just not how the cookie crumbles. The Fourteenth Amendment saved this country from social collapse, I truly believe that. Any erosion of its principles is a danger to everyone.

I’m not scapegoating anyone.

That’s your decision to read it that way. That’s a you problem.

You have decided that when I wrote girls and women I mean in my cis.

It is true that I cannot write from the perspective of being anything other than a cis woman and do so with any authenticity.

It is true that for years after I was assaulted I had to live with and suppress PTSD. If there had been such awareness of the existence of trans people when I was a girl in the middle of nowhere and if my attacker had announced that he was really a trans girl and shown up in the gym showers, I would have lost it and done him as much grievous harm as possible. Because of the PTSD. In reality I just wanted him to quit. I went to a lot of trouble to hide what he was doing, and to prevent it happening to other gurus in the family and to make sure that the adults did not find out. I sat next to him mat many family dinners. I interacted with him as we had always done. I did not and do not understand what his trigger points were that he decided to randomly grab a breast or crotch and/or make some disgusting suggestion in my ear. Well over 50 years later, I still believe that my silence/vigilance and avoidance was the only course open to me without se wrong a lot —every single one—of relationships that were vital to me personally and both our families and beyond.

But that’s a me problem and I don’t put that in you or anyone else.

Multiple people in this thread have expressed discomfort with nudity in showers/locker rooms. It’s something that probably all except one girl in my school gym classes struggled with-‘and all of us were physically presenting girls.

Doors would solve so much of this.

It takes time to learn self acceptance of our bodies and ourselves and it takes time to recover from past traumas. Sometimes a lot of therapy which certainly would not have been available to me when I needed it most for any of the things I needed it for. It’s not readily available for most of us or available at all.

No one should unexpectedly be forced to deal with past traumas while standing naked in a locker room.

No one means NO ONE.

 

[Politesse]

Being political in nature does nit preclude therapy. If you demonstrate how it addressed Toni’s question, your explanation would be more convincing,

Toni is trying to make a personal issue out of a political and legal question that affects far more people thsn just her. My opinions on what rights should belong to a citizen have nothing to do with who said what and when in this thread.

I thought you were first to resort to personal attacks,

The objection I have gotten to universal stalls from Loren and you is both that it would be expensive and people wouldn’t like it.

Your counter is that we should just have universal unisex facilities. Anyone who is uncomfortable using them or opposes your suggestion is either a silly religious nut or a bigot and certainly an anti trans zealot. Which you’ve accused me of being because I think the feelings and needs of all women should be considered. Not just cis women. All women. Btw, women are generally not thrilled when anyone of any sex, gender or sexual orientation invades their space or privacy or tells them what they must tolerate.

Having boundaries is healthy. You don’t have to like another person’s boundaries but you really should respect them.

This is not always easy or convenient. It’s an issue right now in my own family of siblings. But boundary is a boundary.

Oh no. I would fucking LOVE it if you learned what a personal boundary was. Who the fuck ever gave you the right to tell anyone else what they are, or what their personal experiences have been? Who even are you? No one I know, and I do not pretend to. You have no right to characterize my genitals, my disposition, my mind, or my morality. None at all. You have the right to say who you are, if you must, but not a right to tell strangers who they are, uninvited and unwelcome.

I do not care a bit about what is or is not in your underwear. Even if you were in the room next to me and not someone typing at me.

I have not mentioned your genitals because I am not your physician in an exam room with you nor am I a potential sex partner. That is a boundary and you deciding that I have brought it up is a figment of your imagination. In the past you have given the impression that you are male and I assume that is true and I do not assume that is determined by what is in your pants.

Get over yourself.

Except when you're telling a fellow rape victim that they have no idea what it's like to be afraid of a penis, because you "have the impression" that they are male. You think you can do that, and still be seen as perfectly polite. Bragging about how "safe" and "comforted" you feel in your lovely segregated bathrooms to someone has never and will never feel safe in any bathroom, because he literally is not and knows that better than anyone. How dare I accuse you of rudeness? You just want other people to care about your trauma without giving the first flying shit about them, is that so wrong?

In before someone accuses me of needing "therapy" in lieu of a public voice. I'm going to regret posting this aren't I? You'll be comforted to know that I do have a therapist, have for years, but annoyed to learn that "just shut up and get over it" has not been the general tenor of her advice to me over those years.

Honestly, you could use a bit of Christian theology. The "measure you give is the measure you get" kind, not the messed up gender ideology part.

 

[Toni]

Being political in nature does nit preclude therapy. If you demonstrate how it addressed Toni’s question, your explanation would be more convincing,

Toni is trying to make a personal issue out of a political and legal question that affects far more people thsn just her. My opinions on what rights should belong to a citizen have nothing to do with who said what and when in this thread.

I thought you were first to resort to personal attacks,

The objection I have gotten to universal stalls from Loren and you is both that it would be expensive and people wouldn’t like it.

Your counter is that we should just have universal unisex facilities. Anyone who is uncomfortable using them or opposes your suggestion is either a silly religious nut or a bigot and certainly an anti trans zealot. Which you’ve accused me of being because I think the feelings and needs of all women should be considered. Not just cis women. All women. Btw, women are generally not thrilled when anyone of any sex, gender or sexual orientation invades their space or privacy or tells them what they must tolerate.

Having boundaries is healthy. You don’t have to like another person’s boundaries but you really should respect them.

This is not always easy or convenient. It’s an issue right now in my own family of siblings. But boundary is a boundary.

Oh no. I would fucking LOVE it if you learned what a personal boundary was. Who the fuck ever gave you the right to tell anyone else what they are, or what their personal experiences have been? Who even are you? No one I know, and I do not pretend to. You have no right to characterize my genitals, my disposition, my mind, or my morality. None at all. You have the right to say who you are, if you must, but not a right to tell strangers who they are, uninvited and unwelcome.

I do not care a bit about what is or is not in your underwear. Even if you were in the room next to me and not someone typing at me.

I have not mentioned your genitals because I am not your physician in an exam room with you nor am I a potential sex partner. That is a boundary and you deciding that I have brought it up is a figment of your imagination. In the past you have given the impression that you are male and I assume that is true and I do not assume that is determined by what is in your pants.

Get over yourself.

Except when you're telling a fellow rape victim that they have no idea what it's like to be afraid of a penis, because you "have the impression" that they are male. You think you can do that, and still be seen as perfectly polite. Bragging about how "safe" and "comforted" you feel in your lovely segregated bathrooms to someone has never and will never feel safe in any bathroom, because he literally is not. How dare I accuse you of rudeness? You just want other to care about your trauma without giving a flying shit about them, is that so wrong?

Honestly, you could use a bit of Christian theology. The "measure you give is the measure you get" kind, not the messed up gender ideology part.

Oh, ffs. You are imagining a lot of crap.

I assume you are make because I believe you have identified yourself as male in the past. I do not assume that means you have a penis or testicles. I assume everyone is as honest as possible about how the represent themselves online. I do go to some trouble to disguise my identity Tory based on past experiences. I assume others might be doing the same.

I am more than aware that people of all ages, sizes, colors, genital configurations, sexuality and existence along the spectrum of sex identity —and other spectrum can be and are victims of rape and other sexual assault. I’m aware of the trauma. In fact I grew up being told by my father that it is worse for a boy to be raised than a girl. Cool stuff, huh. I was 10 before I had heard of rape because I read it in a book and had to look it up in a dictionary. So I guess I was truly sheltered.

When I suggest doors on stalls, it is to protect everyone in that space from being re-traumatized as best as I possibly can suggest. I’m aware that stall doors do not stop anyone from being raped Abd that there is a danger in false sense of security.

But I can also imagine finding a naked stranger with a penis next to me when I was 13 or 15. I can imagine what it is like to be confronted with someone who triggers your ptsd because guess what? That’s how I grew up. But fortunately not while anybody was naked.

Fortunately I am sufficiently recovered that it is not traumatic but merely infuriating that people like Loren and even you maybe gave suggested that doing anything to mitigate the potential tail fur re-traumatizing is just too expensive and in fact the only solution is all gender no stall doors no privacy for anyone. Because trauma isn’t really a thing for Loren and we all need to get over it.

There are many reasons that people prefer private stalls, including modesty, scars from surgeries or injuries or just liking privacy.

AFAIK, having doors on stalls does not traumatize anyone.

 

[Elixir]

Would it be “normal”, or even advantageous, to have grown all the way to adulthood without ever experiencing anything truly traumatic?
Would that result be desirable?

 

[Emily Lake]

Oh no. I would fucking LOVE it if you learned what a personal boundary was. Who the fuck ever gave you the right to tell anyone else what they are, or what their personal experiences have been? Who even are you? No one I know, and I do not pretend to. You have no right to characterize my genitals, my disposition, my mind, or my morality. None at all. You have the right to say who you are, if you must, but not a right to tell strangers who they are, uninvited and unwelcome.

You tell other people who they are all the fucking time, Poli. You're fundamentally hypocritical when it comes to this principle.

For example... you seem to have no problems at all hollering that Toni and I are bigots because we don't want to be exposed the dicks of strangers in female-only intimate spaces. You routinely take part in a slew of people insisting that I'm far right, despite it being blatantly false.

So yeah, get off your high-horse there buddy.

 

[Emily Lake]

I am really and genuinely curious as to why you think you know what my biological sex is.

Because you've been posting here for nearly a decade, and for the majority of that you didn't bother to try to hide your sex as a male. There's nothing curious about it.

In other words, that's how I identify, so you assume it is true? Like any normal, decent person would do? Why then do you say "regardless of how you choose to identify"? That wouldn't make sense even if it were true that I had always identified as male.

But also, my little pronoun box has always said "nonbinary", I have never changed it, there's no pretending involved. You've just always misgendered me. Quite on purpose, as I have politely corrected you and you have been undeterred. For years.

Sex is not an identity, Poli. You might claim to have a gender identity of "nonbinary", but that's not sex.

So let's be real here. Are you male of female?

ETA: Jarhyn supported your post here. But given that he has quite openly talked about his desire to remove his own testicles, I think it's fairly obvious that Jarhyn is male.

 

[Emily Lake]

I don’t know or care why you have decided that I am a trans exclusionary feminist.

Because you champion women's rights and women's perspectives, but exclude trans women and girls from that definition.

That would be because they're males of the human species, Poli.

Why do so many of you insist that sex and gender are different things... until sex gets in your way, and then you seek to override sex with gender identity? Women's rights are not rights for people who like dresses and feel "girly" inside their brains, they're rights based on the sex. The disadvantages, discrimination, oppression, and predation that women experience aren't based on some ephemeral set of regressive notions in our minds, they're based on our sexed bodies.

For fuck's holy sake, women in Afghantistan aren't deprived of ALL rights and treated as property on the basis of how they feel, that's done on the basis of their actual, real sex. They can't just "identify" their way out of it.

But in the US, in several states... fully intact males with violent histories including sex offenses can "identify" their way out of male prisons and get themselves housed in shared cells with their preferred victims because somehow a completely subjective, unverifiable, feelings-based "identity" has become sacrosanct to a point where actual real women don't fucking matter to any of you anymore.

 

[Emily Lake]

Because you've been posting here for nearly a decade, and for the majority of that you didn't bother to try to hide your sex as a male. There's nothing curious about it.

But also, my little pronoun box has always said "nonbinary", I have never changed it, there's no pretending involved.

It hasn't always. It used to say "All pronouns fine." Can't say whether you're the one who changed it, but someone did.

You've just always misgendered me.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

Meh, I don't care if Poli thinks I've "misgendered" him. Pretty much everyone refers to Poli as "he", because Poli is a male of the human species. At the end of the day, I am not an adherent of the religion of gender. I don't give a crap what Poli's claimed gender is. I only care about his sex. So I prefer to say that I've accurately sexed him.