Trayvon Martin Derail

[coloradoatheist]

That was not the point of the horror movie analogy. It's not that a horror movie monsters are terrifying and scary, it's inconsistencies. When you see a teenagers making out in a horror movie, and Jason shows up, he starts by cutting the head off the guy. The girl screams (probably with the severed head in her lap) and starts running. She runs, and when she finally thinks she's got a way, what happens? It's Jason, and he shows up in front of her. There is no explanation how Jason managed to get ahead of her and cut her off when she was running for her life, and we can forgive such plot holes because it's for dramatic purposes. Shock value.

That's what the stories that posit Zimmerman cutting Martin off at the rear entrace or chasing him through the houses are. They are inconsistent with evidence and common sense, and the only reason they get repeated is because of shock value. It's a much better story to have him sneak up in front of Martin, maybe say a catchphrase like "did you miss, punk?" or laugh maniacally before starting to run after him and chasing him all the way back to the T, than him just standing there like moron with his flashlight like some mall cop. But in reality, the latter is much more likely to have actually happened.

But it does not seem like Zimmerman was at any point cutting Martin off.

He could have been and we don't know whether Trayvon went in a different direction than his house. More importantly, we don't know if Trayvon could have thought he would be cut off since his stalker was driving a truck.

Which would explain why he didn't just go all the way through, but not why he wouldn't enter his dad's house from the back. But based on Jeantel's testimony he thought he got away at that point, so probably he didn't care.

There is no evidence of that, and everything we know puts their confrontation in the rather small area between the T and where Martin's body and cell phone were found.

I thought the cell phone was found some distance away from the T?

About 50 feet from the top of the T. So relatively close, considering Martin's dad's house was some 350-400 feet away.

Your relative comparison may seem non-arbitrary to you, but is actually quite arbitrary. You might as well be saying 50 feet is relatively close if one considers the distance to the Sun. Let's review why: the confrontation began with something verbal and the phone being knocked down. Knocking down a phone or a similar action to a phone will not result in a 50 foot distance, but instead several feet from the location of the phone. So 50 feet is a huge distance relative to the several feet that a phone normally is thrown from a human-to-human collision or being knocked down. Now see, that's a relevant, non-arbitrary relative comparison.

So let's look at what this means. It means the fight moved toward the T, some 50 feet away. Why would it since that seems non-random? Well, it could be by chance or knowing Zimmerman's personality and how he manipulates situations and police, he could have been drawing Trayvon in that general direction during the course of the physical fight so that when the police arrived, he could say he followed their instructions. It could mean that Trayvon was trying to crouch down in the shadows or hide behind something which would actually be very rational. Since Zimmerman could have been somewhat close behind and could be a fast runner with a gun, it might make sense for Trayvon to hide once out of sight. Hypothetical cases aside, what this fact of 50 feet does not mean is that Trayvon circled back to the T being the aggressor as people try to make it look like.

Positing that Zimmerman is a mastermind who not only chased Martin, but did it in a way to deliberately direct the fight at a location where he would have an alibi after he murdered Martin, is exactly the kind of implausible story-telling that just doesn't work in real life. I think Zimmerman was not a genius capable of such foresight (and actually, no real-life "genius" would hatch such ridiculous plans to begin with), I think he's a moron.

There were many times Zimmerman lied to police and either said he did what he was supposed to do or lied about saying he didn't do what he wasn't supposed to do. None of this makes Zimmerman a "mastermind" or a "genius" and therefore your criticism of one particular hypothetical is nonsensical. It is quite obvious that Zimmerman knew he was supposed to be at the T and so falling back to the T doesn't take a genius mind. It just takes someone to be aware of that fact and try to execute it. An I.Q. of about 85 would be cognizant of the requirement from police. An I.Q. of about 90 would be aware of the need to conform to police instruction during a fight.

Now, as for th elocation fo the phone, it was a few feet away from the body. But Zimmerman's keys were at the T. The plastic bag that Martin had was somewhere in between. That gives us a pretty good idea where they would have met, and where the fight happened. Maybe they didn't have their hands on each other at the whole time, but until they were on the ground, they could have still moved quite a bit while fighting.

None of this seems relevant. Since the phone was dropped/knocked down first, it puts the start of the fight 50 feet away or thereabouts. End of Story.

And again, I am not saying that Trayvon Martin turned back looking for a fight. It is most likely because he didn't know Zimmerman was still lurking there. Unless Martin saw Z cross the T, he wouldn't even know he was out of his car.

We really don't know what Trayvon knew and he could have speculated many things.

Several problems there. Where are you getting that Z had to think the fight had to appear at the T. That requires a lot of freethought to even think that way. And second, the phone ended up near the body, within a few feet. You would have a point if the phone was 50 feet away from the body, but it wasn't. and I don't think where the keys landed was actually the start of the fight. The most obvious of why it was dropped there was he was holding his keys and M pops up down the walk way a bit, he drops his keys and they start walking toward each other naturally down the sidewalk.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The place where he dropped the phone was closer to the house... by a couple of feet. The house was hundreds of feet away. There is no indication that Martin, let alone Zimmerman ever went near Martin's dad's house. (I suppose it's possible though that Martin did go there, then for whatever reason doubled back to the T, but it could not have been due to being chased by Zimmerman.)

http://imgur.com/Fq6iu

It doesn't matter where Martin was because where ever he was in his neighborhood he has a lawful right to be there without being assaulted by some asshole cop-wannabe.

My mind's made up, don't bother me with the facts.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

That was not the point of the horror movie analogy. It's not that a horror movie monsters are terrifying and scary, it's inconsistencies. When you see a teenagers making out in a horror movie, and Jason shows up, he starts by cutting the head off the guy. The girl screams (probably with the severed head in her lap) and starts running. She runs, and when she finally thinks she's got a way, what happens? It's Jason, and he shows up in front of her. There is no explanation how Jason managed to get ahead of her and cut her off when she was running for her life, and we can forgive such plot holes because it's for dramatic purposes. Shock value.

That's what the stories that posit Zimmerman cutting Martin off at the rear entrace or chasing him through the houses are. They are inconsistent with evidence and common sense, and the only reason they get repeated is because of shock value. It's a much better story to have him sneak up in front of Martin, maybe say a catchphrase like "did you miss, punk?" or laugh maniacally before starting to run after him and chasing him all the way back to the T, than him just standing there like moron with his flashlight like some mall cop. But in reality, the latter is much more likely to have actually happened.

But it does not seem like Zimmerman was at any point cutting Martin off.

He could have been and we don't know whether Trayvon went in a different direction than his house. More importantly, we don't know if Trayvon could have thought he would be cut off since his stalker was driving a truck.

Which would explain why he didn't just go all the way through, but not why he wouldn't enter his dad's house from the back. But based on Jeantel's testimony he thought he got away at that point, so probably he didn't care.

There is no evidence of that, and everything we know puts their confrontation in the rather small area between the T and where Martin's body and cell phone were found.

I thought the cell phone was found some distance away from the T?

About 50 feet from the top of the T. So relatively close, considering Martin's dad's house was some 350-400 feet away.

Your relative comparison may seem non-arbitrary to you, but is actually quite arbitrary. You might as well be saying 50 feet is relatively close if one considers the distance to the Sun. Let's review why: the confrontation began with something verbal and the phone being knocked down. Knocking down a phone or a similar action to a phone will not result in a 50 foot distance, but instead several feet from the location of the phone. So 50 feet is a huge distance relative to the several feet that a phone normally is thrown from a human-to-human collision or being knocked down. Now see, that's a relevant, non-arbitrary relative comparison.

So let's look at what this means. It means the fight moved toward the T, some 50 feet away. Why would it since that seems non-random? Well, it could be by chance or knowing Zimmerman's personality and how he manipulates situations and police, he could have been drawing Trayvon in that general direction during the course of the physical fight so that when the police arrived, he could say he followed their instructions. It could mean that Trayvon was trying to crouch down in the shadows or hide behind something which would actually be very rational. Since Zimmerman could have been somewhat close behind and could be a fast runner with a gun, it might make sense for Trayvon to hide once out of sight. Hypothetical cases aside, what this fact of 50 feet does not mean is that Trayvon circled back to the T being the aggressor as people try to make it look like.

Positing that Zimmerman is a mastermind who not only chased Martin, but did it in a way to deliberately direct the fight at a location where he would have an alibi after he murdered Martin, is exactly the kind of implausible story-telling that just doesn't work in real life. I think Zimmerman was not a genius capable of such foresight (and actually, no real-life "genius" would hatch such ridiculous plans to begin with), I think he's a moron.

There were many times Zimmerman lied to police and either said he did what he was supposed to do or lied about saying he didn't do what he wasn't supposed to do. None of this makes Zimmerman a "mastermind" or a "genius" and therefore your criticism of one particular hypothetical is nonsensical. It is quite obvious that Zimmerman knew he was supposed to be at the T and so falling back to the T doesn't take a genius mind. It just takes someone to be aware of that fact and try to execute it. An I.Q. of about 85 would be cognizant of the requirement from police. An I.Q. of about 90 would be aware of the need to conform to police instruction during a fight.

Now, as for th elocation fo the phone, it was a few feet away from the body. But Zimmerman's keys were at the T. The plastic bag that Martin had was somewhere in between. That gives us a pretty good idea where they would have met, and where the fight happened. Maybe they didn't have their hands on each other at the whole time, but until they were on the ground, they could have still moved quite a bit while fighting.

None of this seems relevant. Since the phone was dropped/knocked down first, it puts the start of the fight 50 feet away or thereabouts. End of Story.

And again, I am not saying that Trayvon Martin turned back looking for a fight. It is most likely because he didn't know Zimmerman was still lurking there. Unless Martin saw Z cross the T, he wouldn't even know he was out of his car.

We really don't know what Trayvon knew and he could have speculated many things.

Several problems there. Where are you getting that Z had to think the fight had to appear at the T.

Wasn't he supposed to meet the police at the mailboxes/T?

That requires a lot of freethought to even think that way.

It does?

And second, the phone ended up near the body, within a few feet. You would have a point if the phone was 50 feet away from the body, but it wasn't.

Whether or not random objects and bodies are next to the phone is irrelevant to the chronology of events, the first being that the phone was knocked down and out of commission by the confrontation and a likely human-to-human collision. Such event shows that the confrontation occurred approximately 50 feet from where Zimmerman said he was and was supposed to be. Such event shows that Zimmerman continued not to follow instructions from the police and from his training. There really isn't any logical way you can get around this conclusion.

and I don't think where the keys landed was actually the start of the fight.

We don't know the chronology of when the keys were dropped and so this is irrelevant.

The most obvious of why it was dropped there was he was holding his keys and M pops up down the walk way a bit, he drops his keys and they start walking toward each other naturally down the sidewalk.

That doesn't explain the ear witness testimony or why the phone would be dropped after a thud at the location it was at. The most likely scenario continues to be that Z was not where he was supposed to be and that continues to be the most parsimonious with all the shenanigans Zimmerman has engaged in throughout his dramatic appearances since then.

 

[Jayjay]

No, I was not implying that. Nor did I mean "double back" to mean anything other than simply turning back to the T rather than going straight home. At that point, Martin probably hadn't seen Zimmerman leave his vehicle, or that Z had crossed the T on foot. There is no reason to assume that Martin was looking for a confrontaton.

What irks me is that some people are throwing facts out the window and imagine an obviously non-factual narrative to paint Zimmerman as some sort of horror movie monster who methodically hunted Martin down by cutting him off and chased him for several hundred feet. There is no evidence of that, and everything we know puts their confrontation in the rather small area between the T and where Martin's body and cell phone were found.

Except Zimmerman was talking on the phone and using his flashlight within 40 feet of Martin. So why would you get up and walk away after a nominal short period of time in which you could see and possibly hear him?

I don't think Martin was within 40 feet of the T at the time when Zimmerman was still on his phone. I think Martin was further down, talking on the phone and walking away. And Zimmerman, thinking that Martin was headed for the exit, did not necessarily use his flashlight until he got off the phone.

 

[RavenSky]

My mind's made up, don't bother me with the facts.

Thank you for finally admitting how you think

 

[Jayjay]

There were many times Zimmerman lied to police and either said he did what he was supposed to do or lied about saying he didn't do what he wasn't supposed to do. None of this makes Zimmerman a "mastermind" or a "genius" and therefore your criticism of one particular hypothetical is nonsensical. It is quite obvious that Zimmerman knew he was supposed to be at the T and so falling back to the T doesn't take a genius mind. It just takes someone to be aware of that fact and try to execute it. An I.Q. of about 85 would be cognizant of the requirement from police. An I.Q. of about 90 would be aware of the need to conform to police instruction during a fight.

First, lying to the police afterwards doesn't take a mastermind. By that time he knew he was fucked and was just trying to justify all his actions as best he could. But what your hypothetical suggested was that Zimmerman not only decided to cut Martin off at the rear entrance, but also planned that he would chase Martin back up near his car simply because that's where he was supposed to be. And then what? Assuming it had worked and cops had arrested Martin and the Mayor had given Zimmerman a golden key to the city as a reward, surely Martin would have told the cops that he in fact was not at the T but that Zimmerman had chased him. So for this to work out, you'd have to also assume that Zimmerman planned from the start to kill Martin so he couldn't talk and ruin his story.

That sounds more like something hatched by a movie villain than a real person, and that's the kind of silliness that I oppose.

Second, Zimmerman didn't in fact tell the cops he'd be at the T. He told them he didn't know where he'd be and he'd give them a call. And he probably realized that unless he made that call, the cops would enter through the main entrance and go near the mailboxes or his car. Not at the top of the T. And even if he wasn't near there, so what? It's not a crime to walk around your own neighbourhood.

Thirdly, if Zimmerman cared so much about being where he was supposed to be, why would he have started running to the rear entrance and then back to begin with? That wouldn't make any sense. In contrast, being where he was supposed to be by staying where he was makes sense, and that's what most likely happened.

It's fun to find plot holes like this in movies and tv shows, but those are fiction. Reality has no plot holes.

Now, as for th elocation fo the phone, it was a few feet away from the body. But Zimmerman's keys were at the T. The plastic bag that Martin had was somewhere in between. That gives us a pretty good idea where they would have met, and where the fight happened. Maybe they didn't have their hands on each other at the whole time, but until they were on the ground, they could have still moved quite a bit while fighting.

None of this seems relevant. Since the phone was dropped/knocked down first, it puts the start of the fight 50 feet away or thereabouts. End of Story.

Which is what I said. The encounter and the subsequent fight happened in the fairly small area within 50 feet of the T. Besides we don't know if the phone was knocked down first. If Jeantel's "get off me" testimony is correct, and since she said she could hear the other guy's voice, they were if not already touching each other, at least fairly close.

And again, I am not saying that Trayvon Martin turned back looking for a fight. It is most likely because he didn't know Zimmerman was still lurking there. Unless Martin saw Z cross the T, he wouldn't even know he was out of his car.

We really don't know what Trayvon knew and he could have speculated many things.

Not according to Jeantel who said they went back to talking normally for a few minutes. It's fair to speculate, but speculation should be based on evidence.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Except Zimmerman was talking on the phone and using his flashlight within 40 feet of Martin. So why would you get up and walk away after a nominal short period of time in which you could see and possibly hear him?

I don't think Martin was within 40 feet of the T at the time when Zimmerman was still on his phone. I think Martin was further down, talking on the phone and walking away. And Zimmerman, thinking that Martin was headed for the exit, did not necessarily use his flashlight until he got off the phone.

Except if he had continued walking he would have been well past his house in the time it took for Zimmerman to finish his call. So if he had been walking as Jeantel said the encounter would be at the house or well away from where they are. We can certainly look at the layout to determine if Jeantel misremembered something or if she is even lying. It would had been very nice to get her statement the next day before she heard anything else.

 

[RavenSky]

Jeantel lied... but Zimmerman didn't.

An innocent young man is dead because George Zimmerman decided to take his gun and stalk the teenager.

No matter how many times the same people repeat the same bullshit about Trayon, Jeantel, Trayvon's parents, etc ad nauseum... it STILL comes down to George Zimmerman decided to take his gun and stalk an innocent teenager, then shot and killed that innocent teenager.

 

[Jayjay]

I don't think Martin was within 40 feet of the T at the time when Zimmerman was still on his phone. I think Martin was further down, talking on the phone and walking away. And Zimmerman, thinking that Martin was headed for the exit, did not necessarily use his flashlight until he got off the phone.

Except if he had continued walking he would have been well past his house in the time it took for Zimmerman to finish his call. So if he had been walking as Jeantel said the encounter would be at the house or well away from where they are. We can certainly look at the layout to determine if Jeantel misremembered something or if she is even lying. It would had been very nice to get her statement the next day before she heard anything else.

Indeed, if he had walked or ran in a straight line. Obviously he didn't. He may have reached his house, but turned back. Or turned back sometime before he reached the house. Martin was in no hurry to get home, presumably because he liked talking to Jeantel more or possibly because he couldn't (or didn't want to) enter the house via the back door.

 

[Mumbles]

Except if he had continued walking he would have been well past his house in the time it took for Zimmerman to finish his call. So if he had been walking as Jeantel said the encounter would be at the house or well away from where they are. We can certainly look at the layout to determine if Jeantel misremembered something or if she is even lying. It would had been very nice to get her statement the next day before she heard anything else.

Indeed, if he had walked or ran in a straight line. Obviously he didn't. He may have reached his house, but turned back. Or turned back sometime before he reached the house. Martin was in no hurry to get home, presumably because he liked talking to Jeantel more or possibly because he couldn't (or didn't want to) enter the house via the back door.

Or, he simply didn't wnt to lead the creep to his house.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Indeed, if he had walked or ran in a straight line. Obviously he didn't. He may have reached his house, but turned back. Or turned back sometime before he reached the house. Martin was in no hurry to get home, presumably because he liked talking to Jeantel more or possibly because he couldn't (or didn't want to) enter the house via the back door.

Or, he simply didn't wnt to lead the creep to his house.

I went and looked at 40 feet, it's less than the size of my drive that can fit 3 cars. It's ridiculous to say that Martin turned the corner ran 2 or 3 strides stopped and tried to hide in that time. And Jeantel said he had been moving during that time.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Well, it's 50 feet under discussion, not 40. The average stride length for a man is 62 inches. 62 inches is ~ 5 feet which would make ~10 strides in 50 feet for a tall 17 year old male teen. This assumes a linear path and that Trayvon did not start running until he hit the T, of which there is no need for the assumptions. Trayvon could have started running 2 strides before the T, quacked like a duck, then ran 60 feet, then heard a vehicle around his de facto apartment, then decided to turn back 20 feet and hide from possible pursuit from any direction, then could have gotten less frightened and slightly annoyed that he was being pursued by some creepy guy, then could have decided to walk 10 feet toward home after feeling safer, quacked like a duck again, and then saw Zimmerman with a gun in his pocket who was reaching for it when he confronted Trayvon or an infinite number of other possibilities.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Well, it's 50 feet under discussion, not 40. The average stride length for a man is 62 inches. 62 inches is ~ 5 feet which would make ~10 strides in 50 feet for a tall 17 year old male teen. This assumes a linear path and that Trayvon did not start running until he hit the T, of which there is no need for the assumptions. Trayvon could have started running 2 strides before the T, quacked like a duck, then ran 60 feet, then heard a vehicle around his de facto apartment, then decided to turn back 20 feet and hide from possible pursuit from any direction, then could have gotten less frightened and slightly annoyed that he was being pursued by some creepy guy, then could have decided to walk 10 feet toward home after feeling safer, quacked like a duck again, and then saw Zimmerman with a gun in his pocket who was reaching for it when he confronted Trayvon or an infinite number of other possibilities.

He started running prior to the turn so he would have been at a decent speed around the curve so it would be 10 strides or less for to meet even 50 feet. I am saying even stopping at 50 would be weird and that the most likely scerio was that he ended up way down by the house and then looked back and saw Zimmerman at the T looking for him.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Well, it's 50 feet under discussion, not 40. The average stride length for a man is 62 inches. 62 inches is ~ 5 feet which would make ~10 strides in 50 feet for a tall 17 year old male teen. This assumes a linear path and that Trayvon did not start running until he hit the T, of which there is no need for the assumptions. Trayvon could have started running 2 strides before the T, quacked like a duck, then ran 60 feet, then heard a vehicle around his de facto apartment, then decided to turn back 20 feet and hide from possible pursuit from any direction, then could have gotten less frightened and slightly annoyed that he was being pursued by some creepy guy, then could have decided to walk 10 feet toward home after feeling safer, quacked like a duck again, and then saw Zimmerman with a gun in his pocket who was reaching for it when he confronted Trayvon or an infinite number of other possibilities.

He started running prior to the turn so he would have been at a decent speed around the curve so it would be 10 strides or less for to meet even 50 feet. I am saying even stopping at 50 would be weird and that the most likely scerio was that he ended up way down by the house and then looked back and saw Zimmerman at the T looking for him.

Why would it be weird to stop running? He traveled to an area where a truck cannot follow and therefore could consider himself temporarily safe from pursuit by a creepy truck driver. We do not know what additional observations and interpretations of those observations Trayvon had during his path and so we can't definitively say what that path was. For all we know Trayvon heard footsteps or a vehicle and changed path. For all we know Zimmerman reached for his gun. We certainly can't arbitrarily declare one scenario as the "most likely" one because it fits a narrative we like such as Zimmerman suddenly and arbitrarily becoming the non-aggressor and simultaneously Trayvon suddenly and arbitrarily becoming the aggressor. That is not "most likely" at all.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Jeantel lied... but Zimmerman didn't.

An innocent young man is dead because George Zimmerman decided to take his gun and stalk the teenager.

A wannabee neighborhood watch person:

1. was armed, when he wasn't supposed to be (according to any neighborhood watch manual/training)
2. attempted to follow the suspect, when he wasn't supposed to (according to any neighborhood watch manual/training) and the statement from the 911 operator
3. gets in a scuffle with the suspect and allegedly on the verge of getting shot with his own gun (which is why 1 and 2!)

However, we must keep in mind, there is a lot of Trayvon Martin fan-fiction out there and we must not also forget that hypotheticals are as legally binding as actual events.

While Zimmerman primarily suffered from superficial wounds, he could have been on the verge of being killed, several different ways. And Trayvon Martin may have been at that store buying ingredients to build an IED. Therefore, aggressive shooting was a viable option. Sorry Martin. Too bad you weren't white (and likely wouldn't have even been called in on 911).

 

[Loren Pechtel]

My mind's made up, don't bother me with the facts.

Thank you for finally admitting how you think

Nice job of misunderstanding.

I was pointing out that what he was saying is that he didn't care about the facts.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Jeantel lied... but Zimmerman didn't.

An innocent young man is dead because George Zimmerman decided to take his gun and stalk the teenager.

A wannabee neighborhood watch person:

1. was armed, when he wasn't supposed to be (according to any neighborhood watch manual/training)
2. attempted to follow the suspect, when he wasn't supposed to (according to any neighborhood watch manual/training) and the statement from the 911 operator
3. gets in a scuffle with the suspect and allegedly on the verge of getting shot with his own gun (which is why 1 and 2!)

However, we must keep in mind, there is a lot of Trayvon Martin fan-fiction out there and we must not also forget that hypotheticals are as legally binding as actual events.

While Zimmerman primarily suffered from superficial wounds, he could have been on the verge of being killed, several different ways. And Trayvon Martin may have been at that store buying ingredients to build an IED. Therefore, aggressive shooting was a viable option. Sorry Martin. Too bad you weren't white (and likely wouldn't have even been called in on 911).

#1 and #2 are simply showing he's an idiot. We aren't denying that. However, even idiots have the right of self defense. All the advice is to stay out of it for the very reason that happened here--the bad guy turned on the watcher.

 

[RavenSky]

Thank you for finally admitting how you think

Nice job of misunderstanding.

I was pointing out that what he was saying is that he didn't care about the facts.

No he didn't.

You demonstrate that about yourself every day, though

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

A wannabee neighborhood watch person:

1. was armed, when he wasn't supposed to be (according to any neighborhood watch manual/training)
2. attempted to follow the suspect, when he wasn't supposed to (according to any neighborhood watch manual/training) and the statement from the 911 operator
3. gets in a scuffle with the suspect and allegedly on the verge of getting shot with his own gun (which is why 1 and 2!)

However, we must keep in mind, there is a lot of Trayvon Martin fan-fiction out there and we must not also forget that hypotheticals are as legally binding as actual events.

While Zimmerman primarily suffered from superficial wounds, he could have been on the verge of being killed, several different ways. And Trayvon Martin may have been at that store buying ingredients to build an IED. Therefore, aggressive shooting was a viable option. Sorry Martin. Too bad you weren't white (and likely wouldn't have even been called in on 911).

#1 and #2 are simply showing he's an idiot. We aren't denying that.

Nope. You are just saying idiots can kill people when stuck in a corner because of their idiocy. IE, idiots aren't liable for being criminally stupid.

However, even idiots have the right of self defense.

The only person to claim it was self-defense was the guy who'd go to prison if it wasn't self-defense.

All the advice is to stay out of it for the very reason that happened here--the bad guy turned on the watcher.

Back to the Martin Fan Fic again.

 

[RavenSky]

A wannabee neighborhood watch person:

1. was armed, when he wasn't supposed to be (according to any neighborhood watch manual/training)
2. attempted to follow the suspect, when he wasn't supposed to (according to any neighborhood watch manual/training) and the statement from the 911 operator
3. gets in a scuffle with the suspect and allegedly on the verge of getting shot with his own gun (which is why 1 and 2!)

However, we must keep in mind, there is a lot of Trayvon Martin fan-fiction out there and we must not also forget that hypotheticals are as legally binding as actual events.

While Zimmerman primarily suffered from superficial wounds, he could have been on the verge of being killed, several different ways. And Trayvon Martin may have been at that store buying ingredients to build an IED. Therefore, aggressive shooting was a viable option. Sorry Martin. Too bad you weren't white (and likely wouldn't have even been called in on 911).

#1 and #2 are simply showing he's an idiot. We aren't denying that. However, even idiots have the right of self defense. All the advice is to stay out of it for the very reason that happened here--the bad guy turned on the watcher.

The "idiot" does not have the right to start the fight by arming himself and going after an innocent young man. That young man was the one with every right to self defense. Trayvon Martin was NOT "the bad guy" and fuck you every which way to Sunday for your continued slander about an innocent teen killed by a fucking violent pig like Zimmerman. Seriously, just fuck you. It is no wonder racism is alive and well in this country, because there is NO other explanation for your fucked up position in this and other cases.