Trayvon Martin Derail

[Playball40]

Even SYG doesn't allow that. You can't just go around shooting people and saying they might have been a threat.

Yes you can.

Neighborhood layout shows nothing except that Z knew the route to cut the kid off. Which he did.

OH and yes, you can. If the cops think it's 'reasonable' then end of story.

- - - Updated - - -

Facts my ass. You and CA and Co, wouldn't know a fact if it hit them with a sidewalk. You decided the BLACK kid deserved to die period end of discussion. Zimmerman is a cold blooded racist killer who should be in prison. That is a fact.

It doesn't matter where Martin was because where ever he was in his neighborhood he has a lawful right to be there without being assaulted by some asshole cop-wannabe.

My mind's made up, don't bother me with the facts.

 

[Jayjay]

Indeed, if he had walked or ran in a straight line. Obviously he didn't. He may have reached his house, but turned back. Or turned back sometime before he reached the house. Martin was in no hurry to get home, presumably because he liked talking to Jeantel more or possibly because he couldn't (or didn't want to) enter the house via the back door.

Or, he simply didn't wnt to lead the creep to his house.

Let's examine the hypothesis.

If Martin thought Zimmerman was following him on foot, and he didn't want to lead him to his house, why would he walk straight towards Zimmerman's last location? And if he did that on purpose, why would he be surprised (per Jeantel's testimony) to encounter Zimmerman again? It makes no sense. If he thought Zimmerman was on his tail, he would have gone the other way, around the block.

If he thought Zimmerman was following him with a car, there is no need to lose him, because he was already in the walkway between houses where he could not be seen. There would have been no reason to double back as a diversion, and going to his house from the back would have been perfectly safe.

The simplest explanation is that Martin thought he was safe so he just continued talking to Jeantel and loitering about.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Written to Loren Pechtel:

You are just saying idiots can kill people when stuck in a corner because of their idiocy. IE, idiots aren't liable for being criminally stupid.

This, but even more so. In most states there's a criminal offense called reckless endangerment. In Florida, it's called culpable negligence but means the same thing. Zimmerman is not incompetent and so claims his IQ is 80 (an idiot) are exaggerations. Since he's not incompetent, he's subject to laws relevant to criminal recklessness...such as when people have specific training but choose for malicious or reckless reasons not to follow it. If a lifeguard chose to wear those funny glasses with the eyeballs on the front while sleeping and some kids drowned while he was on duty, he could be held criminally liable in a similar way. In Zimmerman's case as you pointed out in previous post, police said not to follow and he received training not to follow and he further was told the dangers of doing so with a gun. These facts were all documented and part of the court evidence.

An example of how Florida applies culpable negligence is to adults who are registered gun owners and leave their guns out unsecurely such that a minor finds it and injures themselves with it. The gun owner received specific training and instruction about this. Even though a gun owner has a Constitutional right to defend himself/herself and has a Constitutional right to property, they do not have a right to be reckless, malicious, or indifferent to the impact that their gun has on minors who could be around.

Likewise, in Fall River, Massachusetts, two pool managers were convicted of reckless endangerment for not following pool rules they were aware of regarding murky water. They let children swim in the shallow end of pool with murky water and no child was injured but the cognizant risk and recklessness was there with specific training and so they received a year of probation each. It also turned out in that case that there was a dead person in the deep end that no one realized was there, but that was a separate issue. The fact that no one saw the body for a full two days demonstrated how murky the water was and that if a child was drowning, a life guard or pool supervisor would not have been able to know right away, if at all.

 

[ZiprHead]

Thank you for finally admitting how you think

Nice job of misunderstanding.

I was pointing out that what he was saying is that he didn't care about the facts.

What? People don't have a right to walk in their neighborhood unaccosted? What fact did I get wrong?

 

[Jayjay]

He started running prior to the turn so he would have been at a decent speed around the curve so it would be 10 strides or less for to meet even 50 feet. I am saying even stopping at 50 would be weird and that the most likely scerio was that he ended up way down by the house and then looked back and saw Zimmerman at the T looking for him.

Why would it be weird to stop running? He traveled to an area where a truck cannot follow and therefore could consider himself temporarily safe from pursuit by a creepy truck driver. We do not know what additional observations and interpretations of those observations Trayvon had during his path and so we can't definitively say what that path was. For all we know Trayvon heard footsteps or a vehicle and changed path. For all we know Zimmerman reached for his gun. We certainly can't arbitrarily declare one scenario as the "most likely" one because it fits a narrative we like such as Zimmerman suddenly and arbitrarily becoming the non-aggressor and simultaneously Trayvon suddenly and arbitrarily becoming the aggressor. That is not "most likely" at all.

Which one is the aggressor in the confrontation is irrelevant, if we are talking about the events that led up to it. For example, if Martin heard another vehicle, and mistook that for Zimmerman (who was already out of his), that's a fine explanation, but it's also neither required nor supported by any evidence since he did not mention such vehicle to Jeantel and nobody else has ever mentioned it either. There is no need to explain Martin behaviour with ad hoc assumptions like that, when a simpler explanation suffices. Occam's Razor.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Why would it be weird to stop running? He traveled to an area where a truck cannot follow and therefore could consider himself temporarily safe from pursuit by a creepy truck driver. We do not know what additional observations and interpretations of those observations Trayvon had during his path and so we can't definitively say what that path was. For all we know Trayvon heard footsteps or a vehicle and changed path. For all we know Zimmerman reached for his gun. We certainly can't arbitrarily declare one scenario as the "most likely" one because it fits a narrative we like such as Zimmerman suddenly and arbitrarily becoming the non-aggressor and simultaneously Trayvon suddenly and arbitrarily becoming the aggressor. That is not "most likely" at all.

Which one is the aggressor in the confrontation is irrelevant, if we are talking about the events that led up to it. For example, if Martin heard another vehicle, and mistook that for Zimmerman (who was already out of his), that's a fine explanation, but it's also neither required nor supported by any evidence since he did not mention such vehicle to Jeantel and nobody else has ever mentioned it either. There is no need to explain Martin behaviour with ad hoc assumptions like that, when a simpler explanation suffices. Occam's Razor.

Except there is no simple answer here for what happened. They didn't meet where they should have if things had been simple. the simplest answer that meets all the testimony and spots is that M reached his house after running, saw Z and the flashflight at the T and went back to investigate.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

Why would it be weird to stop running? He traveled to an area where a truck cannot follow and therefore could consider himself temporarily safe from pursuit by a creepy truck driver. We do not know what additional observations and interpretations of those observations Trayvon had during his path and so we can't definitively say what that path was. For all we know Trayvon heard footsteps or a vehicle and changed path. For all we know Zimmerman reached for his gun. We certainly can't arbitrarily declare one scenario as the "most likely" one because it fits a narrative we like such as Zimmerman suddenly and arbitrarily becoming the non-aggressor and simultaneously Trayvon suddenly and arbitrarily becoming the aggressor. That is not "most likely" at all.

Which one is the aggressor in the confrontation is irrelevant, if we are talking about the events that led up to it. For example, if Martin heard another vehicle, and mistook that for Zimmerman (who was already out of his), that's a fine explanation, but it's also neither required nor supported by any evidence since he did not mention such vehicle to Jeantel and nobody else has ever mentioned it either. There is no need to explain Martin behaviour with ad hoc assumptions like that, when a simpler explanation suffices. Occam's Razor.

Occam's Razor is great, but not proof. Moreover, the absence of evidence is not the same thing as evidence of absence or however that saying goes. You don't expect him to say everything to Jenteal, especially if it will come across as "girly." So, again, there are a gazillion reasons why Martin could have walked one way or another or both ad infinitum. None of that is relevant anyway since he was being stalked by a creepy guy who says things like "nigger lovers" and "those assholes always get away" while being reckless and lying about assaults to police. Zimmerman was simply reckless at best and malicious at worst in the events that led up to the confrontation that resulted in a minor being shot by Zimmerman.

 

[RavenSky]

Occam's Razor is great, but not proof. Moreover, the absence of evidence is not the same thing as evidence of absence or however that saying goes. You don't expect him to say everything to Jenteal, especially if it will come across as "girly." So, again, there are a gazillion reasons why Martin could have walked one way or another or both ad infinitum. None of that is relevant anyway since he was being stalked by a creepy guy who says things like "nigger lovers" and "those assholes always get away" while being reckless and lying about assaults to police. Zimmerman was simply reckless at best and malicious at worst in the events that led up to the confrontation that resulted in a minor being shot by Zimmerman.

Shot and KILLED.

Sorry to be pedantic about it, but I think it is important to remember that Trayvon Martin never got the opportunity to tell us what happened. He's dead because the violent "creepy guy who says things like "nigger lovers" and "those assholes always get away" while being reckless and lying about assaults to police" shot him to death after stalking him with a loaded weapon.

All we have are the ever-shifting self-serving lies of the killer, and the whole-cloth fantasies of his defenders.

 

[Arctish]

Except there is no simple answer here for what happened. They didn't meet where they should have if things had been simple. the simplest answer that meets all the testimony and spots is that M reached his house after running, saw Z and the flashflight at the T and went back to investigate.

I don't get why you think that's a simple explanation. It requires you to assume that an unarmed teenager who was afraid he was being followed by a creepy stranger, and who had successfully avoided him, suddenly and for no apparent reason decided to engage in a direct confrontation. It means discounting both Jeantel's testimony and what Zimmerman told the cops in his walk-through.

I understand why you want it to be so. I understand that it's the only way you can exonerate Zimmerman. But why do you think it's the simplest explanation?

It seems to me the simplest explanation is that Martin tried and failed to avoid the 'creepy-ass cracker' he thought might be following him, and Zimmerman tried and succeeded in catching up to the "fucking punk" "asshole" he was pursuing.

 

[Jayjay]

Which one is the aggressor in the confrontation is irrelevant, if we are talking about the events that led up to it. For example, if Martin heard another vehicle, and mistook that for Zimmerman (who was already out of his), that's a fine explanation, but it's also neither required nor supported by any evidence since he did not mention such vehicle to Jeantel and nobody else has ever mentioned it either. There is no need to explain Martin behaviour with ad hoc assumptions like that, when a simpler explanation suffices. Occam's Razor.

Except there is no simple answer here for what happened. They didn't meet where they should have if things had been simple. the simplest answer that meets all the testimony and spots is that M reached his house after running, saw Z and the flashflight at the T and went back to investigate.

Which is more likely: that Trayvon Martin went to "investigate" a flashlight after just running away from someone in that direction, or that he thought he was safe and went back just because he rather spent some time talking to his friend on the phone than go home?

 

[Jayjay]

Occam's Razor is great, but not proof. Moreover, the absence of evidence is not the same thing as evidence of absence or however that saying goes. You don't expect him to say everything to Jenteal, especially if it will come across as "girly." So, again, there are a gazillion reasons why Martin could have walked one way or another or both ad infinitum. None of that is relevant anyway since he was being stalked by a creepy guy who says things like "nigger lovers" and "those assholes always get away" while being reckless and lying about assaults to police. Zimmerman was simply reckless at best and malicious at worst in the events that led up to the confrontation that resulted in a minor being shot by Zimmerman.

Shot and KILLED.

Sorry to be pedantic about it, but I think it is important to remember that Trayvon Martin never got the opportunity to tell us what happened. He's dead because the violent "creepy guy who says things like "nigger lovers" and "those assholes always get away" while being reckless and lying about assaults to police" shot him to death after stalking him with a loaded weapon.

All we have are the ever-shifting self-serving lies of the killer, and the whole-cloth fantasies of his defenders.

I'm seeing more fantasies from the Trayvon Martin apologists, for example that Zimmerman ran to the rear entrance to cut Martin off or that there was a second car in the neighbourhood or whatever other nonsense that have been suggested in this thread. That Zimmerman killed Martin is a fact. But we shouldn't throw away other facts just to demonize him even futher.

Personally, I don't give a crap that Martin was killed. That's a non-issue. I didn't know him, and people die unfairly all the time, there is no reason for me or most people to get worked up about it. What is interesting about this incident for me is to figure out how the situation played out, based on evidence at our disposal. Had Martin lived, there would be one more testimony that might be interesting, but then it wouldn't have been news and we wouldn't be talking about it in the first place.

 

[Arctish]

Shot and KILLED.

Sorry to be pedantic about it, but I think it is important to remember that Trayvon Martin never got the opportunity to tell us what happened. He's dead because the violent "creepy guy who says things like "nigger lovers" and "those assholes always get away" while being reckless and lying about assaults to police" shot him to death after stalking him with a loaded weapon.

All we have are the ever-shifting self-serving lies of the killer, and the whole-cloth fantasies of his defenders.

I'm seeing more fantasies from the Trayvon Martin apologists, for example that Zimmerman ran to the rear entrance to cut Martin off or that there was a second car in the neighbourhood or whatever other nonsense that have been suggested in this thread. That Zimmerman killed Martin is a fact. But we shouldn't throw away other facts just to demonize him even futher.

Personally, I don't give a crap that Martin was killed. That's a non-issue. I didn't know him, and people die unfairly all the time, there is no reason for me or most people to get worked up about it. What is interesting about this incident for me is to figure out how the situation played out, based on evidence at our disposal. Had Martin lived, there would be one more testimony that might be interesting, but then it wouldn't have been news and we wouldn't be talking about it in the first place.

I get the feeling you're referencing my earlier post, in which I invited people to look at the encounter from the p.o.v. of both Zimmerman and Martin. I based the scenario I presented on known facts, the recorded call, and what George Zimmerman said in his walk-through about going across the T to Retreat View Circle. But you're right, I did present a scenario in which Martin went all the way to the intersection of Retreat View Circle and Twin Trees near the back entrance, while Zimmerman hurried the entire time to intercept him there. We can't be sure which particular path Martin took, and Zimmerman's rate of travel could have varied.

Does it change anything if I note that Martin might have gone a little way down Retreat View Circle and then decided to go between two buildings to the back sidewalk, for whatever reason made sense to him at the time?

Zimmerman was heard huffing in the recorded call immediately after he was heard exiting his car. I don't think it qualifies as fanfic to say he was hurrying to catch up to Martin. Does it change anything if I present a scenario in which he stopped hurrying and started walking normally?

 

[Mumbles]

Which one is the aggressor in the confrontation is irrelevant, if we are talking about the events that led up to it. For example, if Martin heard another vehicle, and mistook that for Zimmerman (who was already out of his), that's a fine explanation, but it's also neither required nor supported by any evidence since he did not mention such vehicle to Jeantel and nobody else has ever mentioned it either. There is no need to explain Martin behaviour with ad hoc assumptions like that, when a simpler explanation suffices. Occam's Razor.

Except there is no simple answer here for what happened. They didn't meet where they should have if things had been simple. the simplest answer that meets all the testimony and spots is that M reached his house after running, saw Z and the flashflight at the T and went back to investigate.

Bullshit.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

...Trayvon Martin apologists...

What is there to apologize for? A kid defending himself? Who knows.

...for example that Zimmerman ran to the rear entrance to cut Martin off...

I didn't say that but instead that there could have been a noise such as footsteps in that direction and so Martin could have perceived that is what Zimmerman was doing. Who knows.

or that there was a second car in the neighbourhood...

There were several vehicles in the neighborhood. It is truly amazing that you have relied so much on Zimmerman's words that you didn't think other vehicles in a neighborhood existed.

...or whatever other nonsense that have been suggested in this thread. That Zimmerman killed Martin is a fact. But we shouldn't throw away other facts just to demonize him even futher...

No one said to throw away facts in the post you responded to, but instead what made you butthurt and call people Trayvon apologists is real, honest talk about Zimmerman:

He's dead because the violent "creepy guy who says things like "nigger lovers" and "those assholes always get away" while being reckless and lying about assaults to police" shot him to death after stalking him with a loaded weapon.

Rather than respond to factual content therein, you chose to call people "Trayvon apologists."

Let's review. Zimmerman is a documented liar to police about assaults: It has happened at least twice: once with his wife whose camera/tablet he broke and then said he didn't destroy it and once with a restaurant patron whom he said assaulted him. Not to mention his other lies about finances etc that he got his wife to engage in with him... Zimmerman did call a waitress a "nigger lover." Zimmerman was angry and stalking after Trayvon while he said "those assholes always get away." -- it's a fact. His running with a gun while police and training told him not to was a reckless act at a minimum and malicious at worst. That is a rational conclusion based on evidence, not an apology for Martin, whatever the heck that is supposed to mean.

Personally, I don't give a crap that Martin was killed. That's a non-issue.

No one cares about your feelings.

I didn't know him, and people die unfairly all the time, there is no reason for me or most people to get worked up about it.

....and yet there you are worked up about a discussion in a forum instead of a human life, wrong priorities, but don't care. No one cares, dude.

What is interesting about this incident for me is to figure out how the situation played out, based on evidence at our disposal.

Then, why did you resort to emotion and name-calling instead of addressing the evidence about Zimmerman lying to police multiple times, being angry, and saying racist things? How did you take those facts into account in your analysis about probabilities such as the "most likely" comments you made or did you not integrate unreliability in Zimmerman's police testimony?

Had Martin lived, there would be one more testimony that might be interesting, but then it wouldn't have been news and we wouldn't be talking about it in the first place.

It isn't rational for you to rely on Zimmerman's testimony to police and 911 calls since he is a known liar to police, even about violence.

 

[coloradoatheist]

Except there is no simple answer here for what happened. They didn't meet where they should have if things had been simple. the simplest answer that meets all the testimony and spots is that M reached his house after running, saw Z and the flashflight at the T and went back to investigate.

Which is more likely: that Trayvon Martin went to "investigate" a flashlight after just running away from someone in that direction, or that he thought he was safe and went back just because he rather spent some time talking to his friend on the phone than go home?

If your scenario was correct then the fight starts at the house, not up at the T. Otherwise we get in the weird situation where two people are talking on the phone looking for each other and only 50 feet apart.

Trayvon sees a guy watching him, walks over to him to see if he is a cop, sees that he's not and gives a don't mess with me sign and then runs to blow him off. Gets upset that he is still being followed and goes to investigate why he's being followed.

 

[coloradoatheist]

I'm seeing more fantasies from the Trayvon Martin apologists, for example that Zimmerman ran to the rear entrance to cut Martin off or that there was a second car in the neighbourhood or whatever other nonsense that have been suggested in this thread. That Zimmerman killed Martin is a fact. But we shouldn't throw away other facts just to demonize him even futher.

Personally, I don't give a crap that Martin was killed. That's a non-issue. I didn't know him, and people die unfairly all the time, there is no reason for me or most people to get worked up about it. What is interesting about this incident for me is to figure out how the situation played out, based on evidence at our disposal. Had Martin lived, there would be one more testimony that might be interesting, but then it wouldn't have been news and we wouldn't be talking about it in the first place.

I get the feeling you're referencing my earlier post, in which I invited people to look at the encounter from the p.o.v. of both Zimmerman and Martin. I based the scenario I presented on known facts, the recorded call, and what George Zimmerman said in his walk-through about going across the T to Retreat View Circle. But you're right, I did present a scenario in which Martin went all the way to the intersection of Retreat View Circle and Twin Trees near the back entrance, while Zimmerman hurried the entire time to intercept him there. We can't be sure which particular path Martin took, and Zimmerman's rate of travel could have varied.

Does it change anything if I note that Martin might have gone a little way down Retreat View Circle and then decided to go between two buildings to the back sidewalk, for whatever reason made sense to him at the time?

Zimmerman was heard huffing in the recorded call immediately after he was heard exiting his car. I don't think it qualifies as fanfic to say he was hurrying to catch up to Martin. Does it change anything if I present a scenario in which he stopped hurrying and started walking normally?

He did start running/walking fast after him after getting out of the car, but it was for 10 seconds or so and then he slowed down. But if he did catch up to him then there are two spots that he catches up to him, the middle of the buildings. However if that happens then they meet at the middle of the call but that didn't happen. So that's out. the other possibility is meeting at the back or the house. If they meet at the house or back entrance then the fight starts there.

 

[RavenSky]

I'm seeing more fantasies from the Trayvon Martin apologists...

Trayvon Martin has nothing to apologize for. He is the innocent dead victim of a violent "creepy guy who says things like "nigger lovers" and "those assholes always get away" while being reckless and lying about assaults to police"

That is the fact, not a fantasy

 

[RavenSky]

Personally, I don't give a crap that Martin was killed. That's a non-issue. I didn't know him, and people die unfairly all the time, there is no reason for me or most people to get worked up about it. What is interesting about this incident for me is to figure out how the situation played out, based on evidence at our disposal.

Then you are not the type of human being I care to know.

I DO care about the fact that an innocent teenager was gunned down by a violent racist, and that the killer walks free. And I DO care about the fact that disgusting human beings STILL try to blame that innocent teenager for his own death for no other reason than the color of his skin. I DO care about the fact that Trayvon's parents and brother have to live with his loss every day of their lives ON TOP OF the vile lies fucking asshole racists continue to spew about him.

It's called empathy. Try it sometime.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Personally, I don't give a crap that Martin was killed. That's a non-issue.

Whether you care about something or not, does not make that something matter or not.

I didn't know him, and people die unfairly all the time, there is no reason for me or most people to get worked up about it.

His death happened in light of the bullshit "stand your ground" statutes which had emboldened Zimmerman. If such a statute did not exist, he very well may not have run into an unknown situation with a gun, knowing he could be criminally liable for whatever happens. That is why it matters.

What is interesting about this incident for me is to figure out how the situation played out, based on evidence at our disposal.

What evidence? There is almost no evidence at all. It hinges almost exclusively on claims Zimmerman made... though not even on the stand.

 

[Jayjay]

I'm seeing more fantasies from the Trayvon Martin apologists, for example that Zimmerman ran to the rear entrance to cut Martin off or that there was a second car in the neighbourhood or whatever other nonsense that have been suggested in this thread. That Zimmerman killed Martin is a fact. But we shouldn't throw away other facts just to demonize him even futher.

Personally, I don't give a crap that Martin was killed. That's a non-issue. I didn't know him, and people die unfairly all the time, there is no reason for me or most people to get worked up about it. What is interesting about this incident for me is to figure out how the situation played out, based on evidence at our disposal. Had Martin lived, there would be one more testimony that might be interesting, but then it wouldn't have been news and we wouldn't be talking about it in the first place.

I get the feeling you're referencing my earlier post, in which I invited people to look at the encounter from the p.o.v. of both Zimmerman and Martin. I based the scenario I presented on known facts, the recorded call, and what George Zimmerman said in his walk-through about going across the T to Retreat View Circle. But you're right, I did present a scenario in which Martin went all the way to the intersection of Retreat View Circle and Twin Trees near the back entrance, while Zimmerman hurried the entire time to intercept him there. We can't be sure which particular path Martin took, and Zimmerman's rate of travel could have varied.

Does it change anything if I note that Martin might have gone a little way down Retreat View Circle and then decided to go between two buildings to the back sidewalk, for whatever reason made sense to him at the time?

Zimmerman was heard huffing in the recorded call immediately after he was heard exiting his car. I don't think it qualifies as fanfic to say he was hurrying to catch up to Martin. Does it change anything if I present a scenario in which he stopped hurrying and started walking normally?

Still, that complicates the scenario by having Zimmerman lie to the police about something which may have had other witnesses, and there is no positive evidence to support that anything of the sort happened. Everything is adequately explain by Zimmerman simply staying roughly where he said was until he met with Martin again (after which he may have approached Martin farther from the T than he said, but not likely any farther than where the body was found).