Trayvon Martin Derail

[bilby]

The Martin/Zimmerman discussion was done to death in here (Archived sub-forum with 50 threads), and then again in the current threads here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here (amongst many other threads, this is far from an exhaustive list) - so why is it being revisited YET AGAIN as a derail for this thread?

Can't you monomaniacs keep your discussion of this incident to one or more of the threads that are already dedicated to your obsession, and let us discuss something else on the rest of the forum?

This thread is entitled "How Will the US Deal with the Black Muslim Police Officer Who Allegedly Shot and Killed an Unarmed White Woman?". The shooting of a non-Muslim black teenager by an armed non-police officer would appear not to be directly related to that topic.

 

[Derec]

Z was the instigator of the assault, not the victim.

You don't know that.

He got out of his car, armed with a 9mm, in order to chase after his neighbor's kid.

His neighbor's boyfriend's kid. The father did not live in the development.
But Z did not know that M was visiting. He thought he looked suspicious. That he was looking at houses as if casing them.
Now, during the original thread, I wrote about how the time between his purchase and when he first encountered Z was way too long. So maybe what Z described was true. Why would M take his time walking back if he is trying to get back before halftime is over? Remember he is supposed to be watching the All Star game with the girlfriend's son. And note that at school M was suspected of having stolen jewelry and a burglary tool.

Even if it's true that Martin briefly had the upper hand during the ensuing fistfight, that does not give Zimmerman a free pass to shoot him.

If he feared for his life, he did.
You seem to think that just by exiting his car and following M, Z relinquished all rights to self-defense.

Martin was walking home from the store and talking to a friend.

Yes, Rachel Jaentel aka Precious.

He noticed a creepy stranger watching him so he picked up his pace and took a slightly different path home in order to avoid him. He resumed his conversation when he thought the coast was clear, but the creepy guy accosted him on the back sidewalk. They argued. One of them ran and the other gave chase. All indications are that Martin was running and the creepy guy was chasing. They fought. At some point Martin saw that the man had a gun. The question is, was Martin's use of force against the creepy guy with the gun justified self-defense, even if could accurately be described as whoop-ass?

There is a lot of speculation there. And note that because the burden of proof is on the prosecution, speculative scenarios break in favor of the defendant.
And note that there is evidence that M hit Z but no evidence that Z hit M. Also there is no evidence M saw the gun before Z pulled it out to shoot.

Just because Zimmerman assaulted someone capable of hurting him doesn't give him the right to kill his victim.

Why do you keep assuming Z assaulted M?

I think that if Martin had picked up the entire sidewalk Pacific Rim Jaeger-style and swung it like a baseball bat at Zimmerman's head, it would have been justified.

Just because Z exited his car and followed M? Does one have the right to kill somebody just for following them?

- - - Updated - - -

The Martin/Zimmerman discussion was done to death in here (Archived sub-forum with 50 threads), and then again in the current threads here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here (amongst many other threads, this is far from an exhaustive list) - so why is it being revisited YET AGAIN as a derail for this thread?

You are right. But this case keep being brought up over and over again for some reason.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

https://talkfreethought.org/showthread.php?11656-How-Will-the-US-Deal-with-the-Black-Muslim-Police-Officer-Who-Allegedly-Shot-and-Killed-an-Unarmed-White-Woman

 

[coloradoatheist]

And we talked about this earlier Arctish, the Martin side ignores the location of the meeting. They have to dismiss it as unimportant or try to come up with some weird mental gymnastics to explain why they met where they did. If Martin double backs to confront Z then it isn't Z initiating the confrontation, but rather M.

We have talked about this before, which is why I cannot understand where you got the idea that I'm ignoring the location of the meeting. Martin did not have to double back at any point in order to have been where he was when Zimmerman confronted him. We have gone over this many times but perhaps I haven't been making my point clearly. Let's try this:

Put yourself in Martin's place. You're walking home from the 7-11 along Twin Trees and you see a creepy looking guy watching you. Several different people have posted their own stories of being followed by creepers, and all of them agree the last thing you would do is continue home along Twin Trees, thereby showing the creeper where you live. So you pick an alternative route that offers greater safety. The sidewalk along the back is shorter but darker whereas Retreat View Circle is well lit and you can watch out for the creeper's car. So you cross the T intersection and walk down the sidewalk on Retreat View Circle, heading home by a slightly longer route.

Now put yourself in Zimmerman's shoes. You suspect the "fucking punk" is going to be one of those "assholes" who "always get away". You tell the dispatcher you believe he's heading for the back entrance. You get out of your car and cross the T intersection to see if the teenager is headed in that direction and confirm that he is. Now you have a choice to either tail him or hustle along the sidewalk to get to the back entrance first. Either way, you are intent on preventing the teenager from getting away before the cops arrive.

Now back to Martin's p.o.v. You reach the intersection of Retreat View Circle and Twin Trees. You don't see any sign of the creepy guy. You resume your phone conversation with your friend as you turn right along the sidewalk and then right again to go to the back door of your house. That's when you discover to your alarm that the creepy guy is following you. You loudly ask him why he's following you and he loudly demands to know "What are you doing here?". You try to run away, but he catches you. You have to fight for your life.

All of this ^ is consistent with Zimmerman's recorded phone call, the forensic evidence, and everything the ear-witnesses heard, from the location of the shouting to the running footsteps coming from the direction of the back entrance and heading toward the top of the T. And it does not require the absurd and implausible supposition that the unarmed teenager being followed by a creeper suddenly, and for no apparent reason, decided to attack, while the guy with history of violence and a gun - a guy who got out of his car for the express purpose of chasing after the teenager - suddenly, and for no apparent reason, gave up the chase and was no longer willing to participate in a confrontation.

All of the mental gymnastics are coming from the Zimmerman supporters. They start out with the conclusion that Martin was the aggressor and look for something to support it. In Loren's case, if there's no support to be found he'll just make something up, the crazier the better. But the most reasonable account is the one most consistent with the evidence. Martin tried to avoid Zimmerman until he couldn't avoid him any longer; Zimmerman pursued Martin until he caught him. They met where they did because Zimmerman anticipated Martin's travel toward the back entrance and Martin was trying to get home safely.

And there are two major issues with that story because 1) It means M took an extremely long time to walk a very short distance with no urgency 2) The fight breaks out at the house, not at the T.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

It means M took an extremely long time to walk a very short distance with no urgency

That tends to happen when you think you're being followed and you're trying to get to where you're going without anyone seeing you. This type of slow, un-urgent walk is usually called "sneaking."

IOW, Martin was trying to sneak past Zimmerman and get home. Zimmerman, who is already convinced Martin is a burglar up to no good, interpreted this sneaking behavior as "He just robbed somebody's house!" and decided to engage him at that point.

 

[coloradoatheist]

It means M took an extremely long time to walk a very short distance with no urgency

That tends to happen when you think you're being followed and you're trying to get to where you're going without anyone seeing you. This type of slow, un-urgent walk is usually called "sneaking."

IOW, Martin was trying to sneak past Zimmerman and get home. Zimmerman, who is already convinced Martin is a burglar up to no good, interpreted this sneaking behavior as "He just robbed somebody's house!" and decided to engage him at that point.

Except while "sneaking" around you don't normally do that carrying on a normal conversation with someone on the phone and again if he was sneaking around as you say then the confrontation occurs at the back of the house or the front of the house, not at the T.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

That tends to happen when you think you're being followed and you're trying to get to where you're going without anyone seeing you. This type of slow, un-urgent walk is usually called "sneaking."

IOW, Martin was trying to sneak past Zimmerman and get home. Zimmerman, who is already convinced Martin is a burglar up to no good, interpreted this sneaking behavior as "He just robbed somebody's house!" and decided to engage him at that point.

Except while "sneaking" around you don't normally do that carrying on a normal conversation with someone on the phone and again if he was sneaking around as you say then the confrontation occurs at the back of the house or the front of the house, not at the T.

This is literally EXACTLY what happened a few years ago when my wife was being followed by a guy on the streets. She called me on her phone, stayed with me on the phone as I was coming to join her there. When she thought she'd lost the guy she ducked into a neighbor's yard for a few minutes to make sure he wasn't still lurking about, and when she thought she was in the clear she came back out onto the sidewalk and started heading home again, at which point the guy -- who WAS still lurking around -- came up behind her and knocked the phone out of her hand.

Unlike Trayvon Martin, she carries (or carried) a pepper spray and a very effective right hook. If the guy following her had been armed, however, that probably would have been a very bad day for her, and you, LP and Derec probably would have checked to make sure the guy was white so that you could then argue that she was the aggressor after all.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Armed pursuit = assault.

Except Martin had no idea Zimmerman was armed. Such situations are based on what is known by the people involved, you don't get a god's-eye view of the facts to decide the situation.

Pursuing and confronting a pedestrian in a hostile manner = putting a fellow citizen in fear for their life and safety, which under Florida's SYG law means the person has the right to use force to defend himself and no duty to retreat.

Confronting someone in a hostile manner does not create a reasonable fear of a threat to one's life.

It's truly amazing that you so easily recognize that when it's a white kid being chased by a black guy, but you are utterly unable to see it when it's a black kid being chased by a white guy.

1) We have no chasing, just following.

2) Martin was the physically stronger--why would he be afraid of Zimmerman in the first place? (Other than because he was afraid of Zimmerman summoning the cops.)

Martin wasn't under any threat from the cops (other than the usual threat black males face from cops). The threat came from the creepy stranger who got out of a car armed with a Kel-Tec 9mm to chase after him.

He was in all probability caught casing houses.

Racist victim-blaming drivel. The only one who thinks that's a probability is you.

The evidence looks like he was a burglar. Zimmerman felt he was acting like a burglar. Doesn't that suggest he might have been casing???

Putting someone in fear for their life and safety is assault, Loren. Accosting them and verbally or physically abusing them is assault and battery. Anyone in Martin's situation would have had a reasonable fear for his life and safety. Anyone accosted by that thug, George Zimmerman, would have had the right to defend him- or herself as best they could.

You can't respond to words other than direct and immediate threats with force.

You can in Florida. And anyway, you're forgetting Zimmerman was engaged in armed pursuit of an unarmed teenager who had every right to walk home unmolested. Martin had a reasonable fear for his life and safety. The fact that the creepy guy who was following him wound up killing him ought to make that obvious, even to you.

You just flunked law 101.

Martin didn't know Zimmerman was armed. Thus Zimmerman's gun is irrelevant for any decision Martin makes--you must assume Zimmerman unarmed.

If I shot the guy after I did everything in my power to avoid him, including flat-out running away, but he caught me despite my efforts, I'd have been hailed as a hero for making the city park a safer place. Unless I was a black teenager, in which case you would call me a thug and Derec would call me a thug and a man-hating feminazi.

If he had tried to restrain you with no indication it was for a lawful purpose then you could have shot the guy. Not until then, though.

Had Zimmerman grabbed Martin and said something like "Not so fast, burglar" the intent is clear--detain for the cops, not to harm.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Except while "sneaking" around you don't normally do that carrying on a normal conversation with someone on the phone and again if he was sneaking around as you say then the confrontation occurs at the back of the house or the front of the house, not at the T.

This is literally EXACTLY what happened a few years ago when my wife was being followed by a guy on the streets. She called me on her phone, stayed with me on the phone as I was coming to join her there. When she thought she'd lost the guy she ducked into a neighbor's yard for a few minutes to make sure he wasn't still lurking about, and when she thought she was in the clear she came back out onto the sidewalk and started heading home again, at which point the guy -- who WAS still lurking around -- came up behind her and knocked the phone out of her hand.

Unlike Trayvon Martin, she carries (or carried) a pepper spray and a very effective right hook. If the guy following her had been armed, however, that probably would have been a very bad day for her, and you, LP and Derec probably would have checked to make sure the guy was white so that you could then argue that she was the aggressor after all.

Open phone connection, sure---but not talking. That's incompatible with stealth.

 

[Toni]

This is literally EXACTLY what happened a few years ago when my wife was being followed by a guy on the streets. She called me on her phone, stayed with me on the phone as I was coming to join her there. When she thought she'd lost the guy she ducked into a neighbor's yard for a few minutes to make sure he wasn't still lurking about, and when she thought she was in the clear she came back out onto the sidewalk and started heading home again, at which point the guy -- who WAS still lurking around -- came up behind her and knocked the phone out of her hand.

Unlike Trayvon Martin, she carries (or carried) a pepper spray and a very effective right hook. If the guy following her had been armed, however, that probably would have been a very bad day for her, and you, LP and Derec probably would have checked to make sure the guy was white so that you could then argue that she was the aggressor after all.

Open phone connection, sure---but not talking. That's incompatible with stealth.

Right. Martin wasn't sneaking up on anybody. That was Zimmerman.

 

[Mumbles]

Except Martin had no idea Zimmerman was armed. Such situations are based on what is known by the people involved, you don't get a god's-eye view of the facts to decide the situation.

He also did not know that Zimmerman wasn't armed. All he did know is that some random person was suddenly following him around while he was walking home, and that this person was clearly hostile and refused to explain his aggressive behavior.

Confronting someone in a hostile manner does not create a reasonable fear of a threat to one's life.

Now that's simply a stupid thing to say.

1) We have no chasing, just following.

False.

2) Martin was the physically stronger--why would he be afraid of Zimmerman in the first place? (Other than because he was afraid of Zimmerman summoning the cops.)

Actually, we have no evidence that Martin was "physically stronger". Street fights often come down to luck, unless the two people are grossly mismatched.

The evidence looks like he was a burglar. Zimmerman felt he was acting like a burglar. Doesn't that suggest he might have been casing???

Considering that Zimmerman felt that every black person he didn't recognize was "real suspicious", no, it simply makes Zimmerman sound like another racist, violent idiot.

If he had tried to restrain you with no indication it was for a lawful purpose then you could have shot the guy. Not until then, though.

Had Zimmerman grabbed Martin and said something like "Not so fast, burglar" the intent is clear--detain for the cops, not to harm.

And according to witness Rachel Jeantel, Zimmerman did, in fact, grab Martin after following him in his car and on foot.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

If he had tried to restrain you with no indication it was for a lawful purpose then you could have shot the guy.

"Neighborhood watch, Sir. Please empty your pockets and identify yourself."

 

[Arctish]

Z was the instigator of the assault, not the victim

You don't know that.

(1) An “assault” is an intentional, unlawful threat by word or act to do violence to the person of another, coupled with an apparent ability to do so, and doing some act which creates a well-founded fear in such other person that such violence is imminent. <link>

He got out of his car, armed with a 9mm, in order to chase after his neighbor's kid.

His neighbor's boyfriend's kid. The father did not live in the development.
But Z did not know that M was visiting. He thought he looked suspicious. That he was looking at houses as if casing them.
Now, during the original thread, I wrote about how the time between his purchase and when he first encountered Z was way too long. So maybe what Z described was true. Why would M take his time walking back if he is trying to get back before halftime is over? Remember he is supposed to be watching the All Star game with the girlfriend's son. And note that at school M was suspected of having stolen jewelry and a burglary tool.

IOW, you agree Zimmerman got out of his car, armed with a 9mm, to chase after Martin.

Even if it's true that Martin briefly had the upper hand during the ensuing fistfight, that does not give Zimmerman a free pass to shoot him.

If he feared for his life, he did.
You seem to think that just by exiting his car and following M, Z relinquished all rights to self-defense.

The rules regarding self defense are different for people who instigate fatal fights as opposed to those who were trying to avoid one. That is why Zimmerman defenders are so desperate to turn Martin into the aggressor. They paint him as a drug-crazed thug intent on mayhem who shook off his pursuer but then decided to attack poor George, that bumbling Rod Farva of a neighborhood watch volunteer. But none of the bullshit stories Loren makes up, and none of the pedantic quibbling about whether Martin's father actually lived in the Retreat at Twin Lakes or if he just spent all of his time there with his fiancé, changes the fact that Zimmerman was the aggressor, that Zimmerman assaulted Martin, that Martin had a reasonable fear for his life and safety, and that if Martin was a white kid you wouldn't question his right to defend himself.

Martin was walking home from the store and talking to a friend.

Yes, Rachel Jaentel aka Precious.

You keep making this same stupid jape. Do you think mocking her size, color, and gender is a genuine argument against her credibility, or do you just like name-calling, fat-shaming, and open displays of your contempt for black females?

He noticed a creepy stranger watching him so he picked up his pace and took a slightly different path home in order to avoid him. He resumed his conversation when he thought the coast was clear, but the creepy guy accosted him on the back sidewalk. They argued. One of them ran and the other gave chase. All indications are that Martin was running and the creepy guy was chasing. They fought. At some point Martin saw that the man had a gun. The question is, was Martin's use of force against the creepy guy with the gun justified self-defense, even if could accurately be described as whoop-ass?

There is a lot of speculation there. And note that because the burden of proof is on the prosecution, speculative scenarios break in favor of the defendant.
And note that there is evidence that M hit Z but no evidence that Z hit M. Also there is no evidence M saw the gun before Z pulled it out to shoot.

There is evidence Martin was running away and Zimmerman was pursuing him. There is evidence Zimmerman caught up to Martin and grabbed him. This evidence comes from more than one source. And it doesn't matter when Martin saw the gun. He might have seen it early, he might have seen it at the last moment; he might not have known Zimmerman had a gun until Zimmerman pulled the trigger. What matters is that Zimmerman brought it with him from the car and that he used it to kill Martin. So, Zimmerman was the aggressor, he brought a gun to a fistfight he himself instigated, and he killed an unarmed teenaged pedestrian who was walking home and talking to a friend on the phone when Zimmerman created their conflict out of thin air and bad temper.

Just because Zimmerman assaulted someone capable of hurting him doesn't give him the right to kill his victim.

Why do you keep assuming Z assaulted M?

(1) An “assault” is an intentional, unlawful threat by word or act to do violence to the person of another, coupled with an apparent ability to do so, and doing some act which creates a well-founded fear in such other person that such violence is imminent. <link>

I think that if Martin had picked up the entire sidewalk Pacific Rim Jaeger-style and swung it like a baseball bat at Zimmerman's head, it would have been justified.

Just because Z exited his car and followed M? Does one have the right to kill somebody just for following them?

We are discussing what actually happened, not one of Loren's fanfics.

Had Zimmerman kept his distance and simply followed Martin there would have been no close encounter, no shouting, no brawling, no gunshot, and no controversy.

Or better yet, if he'd followed his Neighborhood Watch training and stayed in his car, none of this would have happened.

The Martin/Zimmerman discussion was done to death in here (Archived sub-forum with 50 threads), and then again in the current threads here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, and here (amongst many other threads, this is far from an exhaustive list) - so why is it being revisited YET AGAIN as a derail for this thread?

You are right. But this case keep being brought up over and over again for some reason.

It's pertinent to the discussion of how racism affects perceptions of guilt or innocence. That makes it pertinent to a lot discussions in the Politics forum.

 

[Arctish]

We have talked about this before, which is why I cannot understand where you got the idea that I'm ignoring the location of the meeting. Martin did not have to double back at any point in order to have been where he was when Zimmerman confronted him. We have gone over this many times but perhaps I haven't been making my point clearly. Let's try this:

Put yourself in Martin's place. You're walking home from the 7-11 along Twin Trees and you see a creepy looking guy watching you. Several different people have posted their own stories of being followed by creepers, and all of them agree the last thing you would do is continue home along Twin Trees, thereby showing the creeper where you live. So you pick an alternative route that offers greater safety. The sidewalk along the back is shorter but darker whereas Retreat View Circle is well lit and you can watch out for the creeper's car. So you cross the T intersection and walk down the sidewalk on Retreat View Circle, heading home by a slightly longer route.

Now put yourself in Zimmerman's shoes. You suspect the "fucking punk" is going to be one of those "assholes" who "always get away". You tell the dispatcher you believe he's heading for the back entrance. You get out of your car and cross the T intersection to see if the teenager is headed in that direction and confirm that he is. Now you have a choice to either tail him or hustle along the sidewalk to get to the back entrance first. Either way, you are intent on preventing the teenager from getting away before the cops arrive.

Now back to Martin's p.o.v. You reach the intersection of Retreat View Circle and Twin Trees. You don't see any sign of the creepy guy. You resume your phone conversation with your friend as you turn right along the sidewalk and then right again to go to the back door of your house. That's when you discover to your alarm that the creepy guy is following you. You loudly ask him why he's following you and he loudly demands to know "What are you doing here?". You try to run away, but he catches you. You have to fight for your life.

All of this ^ is consistent with Zimmerman's recorded phone call, the forensic evidence, and everything the ear-witnesses heard, from the location of the shouting to the running footsteps coming from the direction of the back entrance and heading toward the top of the T. And it does not require the absurd and implausible supposition that the unarmed teenager being followed by a creeper suddenly, and for no apparent reason, decided to attack, while the guy with history of violence and a gun - a guy who got out of his car for the express purpose of chasing after the teenager - suddenly, and for no apparent reason, gave up the chase and was no longer willing to participate in a confrontation.

All of the mental gymnastics are coming from the Zimmerman supporters. They start out with the conclusion that Martin was the aggressor and look for something to support it. In Loren's case, if there's no support to be found he'll just make something up, the crazier the better. But the most reasonable account is the one most consistent with the evidence. Martin tried to avoid Zimmerman until he couldn't avoid him any longer; Zimmerman pursued Martin until he caught him. They met where they did because Zimmerman anticipated Martin's travel toward the back entrance and Martin was trying to get home safely.

And there are two major issues with that story because 1) It means M took an extremely long time to walk a very short distance with no urgency 2) The fight breaks out at the house, not at the T.

The amount of time between the end of Zimmerman's recorded call and the 911 calls from the neighbors reporting screaming and fighting was only about 2 minutes. I'll have to check the timestamps, which means digging up sources, but it wasn't all that long between the time Zimmerman was heard hustling on foot and the start of the fighting.

The reports from the neighbors indicate the shouting started near the house Martin was staying in, and the running was from the direction of the back entrance toward the top of the T. Martin's dropped phone was found closer to the house than his body. And Jeantel said Martin told her he was close to the house when he realized the creepy guy from the car was right behind him.

The evidence indicates Martin was just trying to get to the house safely. No doubling back, no attacking the creepy guy for no reason, no stupid "you gonna die, whitey" dialog.

Not that it will matter to the die-hard Zimmerman fans. They'll just ignore any evidence that doesn't support their preferred conclusion, like they always do.

 

[Jayjay]

And there are two major issues with that story because 1) It means M took an extremely long time to walk a very short distance with no urgency 2) The fight breaks out at the house, not at the T.

The amount of time between the end of Zimmerman's recorded call and the 911 calls from the neighbors reporting screaming and fighting was only about 2 minutes. I'll have to check the timestamps, which means digging up sources, but it wasn't all that long between the time Zimmerman was heard hustling on foot and the start of the fighting.

The reports from the neighbors indicate the shouting started near the house Martin was staying in, and the running was from the direction of the back entrance toward the top of the T. Martin's dropped phone was found closer to the house than his body. And Jeantel said Martin told her he was close to the house when he realized the creepy guy from the car was right behind him.

The place where he dropped the phone was closer to the house... by a couple of feet. The house was hundreds of feet away. There is no indication that Martin, let alone Zimmerman ever went near Martin's dad's house. (I suppose it's possible though that Martin did go there, then for whatever reason doubled back to the T, but it could not have been due to being chased by Zimmerman.)

http://imgur.com/Fq6iu

 

[ZiprHead]

The amount of time between the end of Zimmerman's recorded call and the 911 calls from the neighbors reporting screaming and fighting was only about 2 minutes. I'll have to check the timestamps, which means digging up sources, but it wasn't all that long between the time Zimmerman was heard hustling on foot and the start of the fighting.

The reports from the neighbors indicate the shouting started near the house Martin was staying in, and the running was from the direction of the back entrance toward the top of the T. Martin's dropped phone was found closer to the house than his body. And Jeantel said Martin told her he was close to the house when he realized the creepy guy from the car was right behind him.

The place where he dropped the phone was closer to the house... by a couple of feet. The house was hundreds of feet away. There is no indication that Martin, let alone Zimmerman ever went near Martin's dad's house. (I suppose it's possible though that Martin did go there, then for whatever reason doubled back to the T, but it could not have been due to being chased by Zimmerman.)

http://imgur.com/Fq6iu

It doesn't matter where Martin was because where ever he was in his neighborhood he has a lawful right to be there without being assaulted by some asshole cop-wannabe.

 

[Eldarion Lathria]

From what I understand of the case, Trayvon Martin was minding his own business. If I had been on the jury, I would have voted guilty for manslaughter.

And if George Zimmerman's name had been Jorge Zamora, would we have heard all the media chatter? Or would it have been one of them killed another one of them, who cares?

Eldarion Lathria

 

[Jayjay]

The place where he dropped the phone was closer to the house... by a couple of feet. The house was hundreds of feet away. There is no indication that Martin, let alone Zimmerman ever went near Martin's dad's house. (I suppose it's possible though that Martin did go there, then for whatever reason doubled back to the T, but it could not have been due to being chased by Zimmerman.)

http://imgur.com/Fq6iu

It doesn't matter where Martin was because where ever he was in his neighborhood he has a lawful right to be there without being assaulted by some asshole cop-wannabe.

We don't know who assaulted whom. It may be more plausibly Zimmerman, but there is no hard evidence either way. All I was saying is that the theory that Zimmerman went all the way to the back entrance and then chased Martin back up to the T is not likely to have happened. They confronted each other near the T, had a scuffle which ended with Martin getting shot.

 

[RavenSky]

Oh you're so right. Bullet holes are NOTHING in comparison to a scratch on the back of the head.

You don't look at the actual injuries, but the potential injuries.

I will hold you to this piece of bullshit next time you try to defend cop brutality

Z was down and having his head beaten on the ground. That..

...is a lie Zimmerman told to get away with murder.

 

[RavenSky]

Just because Zimmerman assaulted someone capable of hurting him doesn't give him the right to kill his victim.

That is the entire case right there.

And I think if it was a white teenaged pedestrian defending himself against an armed black thug, you'd have no problem seeing that.

and that is truth