Trump - Alleged Poor Empathy

[sharon45]

Thank you for providing a straightforward explanation of your opinion. But really, it shouldn't have taken this long and for us to jump through so many hurdles for you to do so.

First of all, that greatly depends on what you and others have to say about what I wrote. As a quick scan, it doesn't look too promising. Second, I did not have hurdles for anyone to jump through, I asked a very simple question based on the OP's assertion, then I also provided merely illustrative answers to two other posts, which kinda started a tiny hit squad on me. And I am not complaining, just further explaining.

You see, conducting enigmatic "tests" on people instead of offering no-nonsense dialogue IS condescending.

No, what is condescending, is thinking to clarify to me what condescension is, when it is clear that you don't honestly know what it means.

And expecting your test subjects to ask you the right questions before you reveal the true meaning behind your oh so special and important lesson for them is also quite condescending.

Again, wrong, as I pointed out above, I was being honest, and I wanted people to learn about the subject for themselves. I've been able to retain this issue for over 44 years, so I don't think it is too important to override others, as people merely assume once again.

Overall your communication style sucks which makes your efforts to "teach" a complete failure.

You are the one who put the word wisdom in your last post, and that was the only reason why I granted an answer even before I knew that it was prudent to do so. See, wisdom can not be taught, it has to be earned, and that is why you assume that I can't guide people. One first has to be open to change and guidance, with a humble heart, then one can obtain wisdom. I finally answered you, because I wanted to give one more test to see if people were going to honestly use what I wrote, or recklessly pass it off as just another mere view.

Also consider that when you set yourself up as the "teacher" in this way you close off any chance of learning something yourself from your "students" which is a foolish choice unless you happen to believe that you already know everything there is to know, in which case, there is no point at all in trying to converse with you.

More condescension. I'm not allowed to be condescending, because it is like kneecapping myself, since I need to remain humble to procure and hold onto more wisdom. There is nothing mystical about it.

If you can pull yourself out of your condescending teacher mode for a moment you should consider contributing to these discussions as an equal instead of lecturing to them as a pedagogue. It is by far a more effective means of connecting to people and getting them to understand and accept your point of view.

I don't need people to accept my point of view, because that is vainity. I am here to teach people, if they don't want it, that is their loss, not mine.

 

[sharon45]

So apparently Sharon45's contribution to the thread was that it doesn't matter what Trump says or how much empathy he displays when offering condolences to grieving family members because grieving family members are bound to be inconsolable.

But instead of simply saying that in his own words he decided to conduct a condescending "test" to fish out whether the OP is capable of coming to that conclusion on his own. Though, as to why Sharon thought that was going to be a productive form of communication and wouldn't devolve into the voluminous amount of confusion and bickering that it obviously has devolved into (and inevitably would) is beyond me.

The Ignore function does have a useful purpose. After putting forth good faith effort towards certain people here and getting lazy and incoherent shit lobbed back at me, I finally put them on ignore. I don't like to do that because it shuts out voices, but some voices are just yammering clowns whose shrieks drown out and distract from legitimate discussion.

Here is a colorful impressionistic sketch of condescension.

 

[sharon45]

And that's when the mother quickly snaps back: "How dare you think you know anywhere near what I feel!" "Hey, did you even have to bury a son, let alone one who was killed in combat serving this country with a president as cold-hearted and arrogant as yourself?"

You know what this statement reminds me of? When I'd play on the playground with other kids and I'd shoot them with a laser and they'd go "No, I have a shield."

I don't understand how it relates to what you wrote, but it is based on many people's responses I have seen when someone without much confidence tries to be empathic, and are quickly shown that they are not very good at dealing with any unexpected backlash.

 

[sharon45]

I genuinely think it is far more than simply narcissism. I think that Trump's mental capacities are declining and stretched very thin. Why do I think this? I've listened to recordings of him speaking 20-30 years ago. I didn't like him more then than I do now, and disagreed with him profoundly, but he didn't sound incompetent. Today, listening to the man speak, it is impossible to miss the flat emotional affect that was not present 30 years ago, the body language, the fact that he seems to get lost in his prepared speech, that his going off script is not so much a choice as it is a function of him not being able to remember what he had intended/was directed to say, and the fact that he has, on multiple occasions, wandered off during a document signing event--without actually signing the document that press was called to witness being signed. This is not someone with his full faculties or in good command of those he still possesses.

You just don't realize how good a speaker he is. One shouldn't continually underestimate one's own opposition.

 

[bilby]

I don't need people to accept my point of view, because that is vainity. I am here to teach people, if they don't want it, that is their loss, not mine.

*Vanity

And you should learn to spell it, because then you can look up the meaning of the word, and find that your above claim is an excellent example of it.

Look up 'condescension' while you are there.

 

[Cobalt]

I genuinely think it is far more than simply narcissism. I think that Trump's mental capacities are declining and stretched very thin. Why do I think this? I've listened to recordings of him speaking 20-30 years ago. I didn't like him more then than I do now, and disagreed with him profoundly, but he didn't sound incompetent. Today, listening to the man speak, it is impossible to miss the flat emotional affect that was not present 30 years ago, the body language, the fact that he seems to get lost in his prepared speech, that his going off script is not so much a choice as it is a function of him not being able to remember what he had intended/was directed to say, and the fact that he has, on multiple occasions, wandered off during a document signing event--without actually signing the document that press was called to witness being signed. This is not someone with his full faculties or in good command of those he still possesses.

You just don't realize how good a speaker he is. One shouldn't continually underestimate one's own opposition.

You sound like Scott Adams on this topic. Why do you think Toni is not persuaded by this allegedly good speaker?

 

[iolo]

You just don't realize how good a speaker he is. One shouldn't continually underestimate one's own opposition.

You sound like Scott Adams on this topic. Why do you think Toni is not persuaded by this allegedly good speaker?

Anyone who wanted to be a good speaker would, as did the ghastly Mrs Thatcher, get some training. He sounds like an expiring vacuum cleaner.

 

[Elixir]

You sound like Scott Adams on this topic. Why do you think Toni is not persuaded by this allegedly good speaker?

Anyone who wanted to be a good speaker would, as did the ghastly Mrs Thatcher, get some training. He sounds like an expiring vacuum cleaner.

And the vocabulary of a 5th grader. He's good at riling up those who share his room-temperature IQ.

 

[KeepTalking]

I guarantee you that it is not a straw man

And I guarantee that it is.

it was genuinely my attempt to figure out what you are trying to say here.

No, since then you would have asked some questions of me first, like I already said a few times in this thread. You can then more properly evaluate, once you have the facts right.

But if I haven't deciphered your intentions in this thread, it isn't my fault.

Of course it is, just accept personal responsibility.

Perhaps you should express your opinions directly, openly and concisely, so that we can all finally understand you.

That is what I was trying to do, but then instead of people normally asking why I did something a certain way, I was being falsely accused.

Or maybe you are incapable of recognizing the confusion your evasive responses have evoked or aren't charitable enough to alleviate our confusion without an explicit request to do so, so I will ask you directly.

I'm not about charity, since I want people to actually take part in learning. I wasn't being condescending, I was honest. I could have just said from the beginning that "Yeah, Trump makes another fool out of himself, big deal." and left it there, but I wanted to teach something.

General Kelly sloppily explained a couple of days ago in a press conference some of what I was getting at. I've known about this issue ever since I was nine years old when my father died of a heart attack. Obviously that isn't the same as one being killed in combat, but it was the first death that I have ever experienced, and it was in my own family. Now people naturally came by our house to show their so-called respects, but I knew that these people weren't around yesterday, and they weren't going to be around tomorrow either, so these were only self-serving condolences. About the same as when I went back to school, and kids who didn't normally like me and/or talk to me, were all of a sudden wanting to share their thoughts also. I realized that it was just faked empathy. Plus I didn't want it, even if it had been real, but as I pointed out way above, I was forced into being the good little mourner, to merely be polite to others, and reject my own feelings, even though I am the one in real pain here, not them. This is an extremely private agony that is constantly made public to a certain degree, and it shouldn't be. Anyone who was honestly close to my father would not have needed to give their condolences to me, because they would be hurting bad also, just like I wouldn't be expecting condolences from my other sisters, or me delivering condolences to them.

And this is about where the president comes in. I doubt Trump even knew this man and his family beforehand, let alone was very good friends with them. Yet he is forced into an obligated position, which is basically no better than the people I described above. Except he is clearly a polarizing political figure, so that could make it seem to some people like the school bully who just beat you up a few days ago, expressing his supposed condolences. It sort of rings a bit hollow, no matter how well-worded it may be. Especially when the bully goes on back to his normal behavior after giving you a few days rest. Which describes Trump once again. But of course I am not only blaming Trump, because every president has many people who do not like him.

You know, you could have just said as much at the outset, instead of constructing an elaborate mystery test because you are here to teach instead of engage in a discussion. At that point, you might have learned something else. You aren't the only person who has experienced the loss of a close family member. I have lost more than one. Donald Trump has lost people. This is how most people acquire that empathy we are discussing (not teaching). Sure, there isn't much that is going to console you when you are in that state, the best you can hope for is a shoulder to cry on. That is a reason why Donald Trump should never have called her in the first place, but he just needed to prove a point, about how he is so much better than everyone else who has done the thing he did. But it's too late for that, he called. When you do call a grieving person about their lost loved one, you had better make sure you do so with empathy. The leader of the free world failed to meet that bar, likely because he is incapable of feeling empathy in such a situation. That is what this is about. Not that you will learn anything from this exchange, given that you are only here to teach.

 

[Elixir]

You know, you could have just said as much at the outset, instead of constructing an elaborate mystery test because you are here to teach preach instead of engage in a discussion.

FIFY.
Re: Kelly... he probably didn't WANT to be trotted out to repeat the lies of a fat orange turd, but I'm sure he faced an ultimatum. His patriotic nature caused him to sacrifice his own credibility and all semblance of honesty, in order to maintain a position from which he can beat FFvC to the nuclear "football".

 

[LordKiran]

You know what this statement reminds me of? When I'd play on the playground with other kids and I'd shoot them with a laser and they'd go "No, I have a shield."

I don't understand how it relates to what you wrote, but it is based on many people's responses I have seen when someone without much confidence tries to be empathic, and are quickly shown that they are not very good at dealing with any unexpected backlash.

Because like the statement. "I have a shield." Your assertion comes out of nowhere and has zero basis in reality. You have no reason to assume someone you don't know would respond in the way you've asserted.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

I don't understand how it relates to what you wrote, but it is based on many people's responses I have seen when someone without much confidence tries to be empathic, and are quickly shown that they are not very good at dealing with any unexpected backlash.

 

[jab]

If the mother crudely interrupts, it's grief expressing as anger.

She doesn't do anything of the sort, because she is supposed to be a good little mourner. The real point of my illustration is that there are really no pleasing words, only such platitudes from a kind of Hallmark card. The mother is obviously an adult, but she is forced into a wretched position that has to make her look like a child.

So then the question becomes, could Trump empathize and skillfully deal with that if it happened? Answer: Given the evidence of what and how he is, almost certainly not.

His response, no matter how ill-conceived it may have sounded to others, was at least his words, and not basically a well-rehearsed form letter as most presidents give.

Actually, according to Kelly, that lien was rehearsed.
The part of the complaint that the Congresswoman attributes even more to the widow than the now oft quoted phrase, was that your President didn't call her husband by his name and called him "your guy", not "your husband". Perhaps Don Trump thought he was talking to Mary "My Guy" Wells, a Motown artist from his youth.

 

[sharon45]

I don't need people to accept my point of view, because that is vainity. I am here to teach people, if they don't want it, that is their loss, not mine.

*Vanity

And you should learn to spell it, because then you can look up the meaning of the word, and find that your above claim is an excellent example of it.

Look up 'condescension' while you are there.

I purposely left that typo there for anyone wishing to abuse it. If people don't like being tested, don't fall for them.

 

[sharon45]

You just don't realize how good a speaker he is. One shouldn't continually underestimate one's own opposition.

You sound like Scott Adams on this topic. Why do you think Toni is not persuaded by this allegedly good speaker?

Of course she shouldn't be persuaded, I certainly am not either. I've already said a few times here that Trump is a habitual liar and manipulator.

 

[sharon45]

You sound like Scott Adams on this topic. Why do you think Toni is not persuaded by this allegedly good speaker?

Anyone who wanted to be a good speaker would, as did the ghastly Mrs Thatcher, get some training. He sounds like an expiring vacuum cleaner.

Yes, that is from a different angle of speaking, other than some actual content of the speech. I know Trump sorely embarrassed himself constantly criticizing Obama's use of a teleprompter, when Obama at least was very skillful with the device, but Trump obviously looks and speaks uncomfortably.

 

[bilby]

*Vanity

And you should learn to spell it, because then you can look up the meaning of the word, and find that your above claim is an excellent example of it.

Look up 'condescension' while you are there.

I purposely left that typo there for anyone wishing to abuse it. If people don't like being tested, don't fall for them.

Suuure. I totally believe you.

The teacher-pupil relationship only exists amongst adults with the consent of both parties; You can declare yourself to be someone's teacher, but if they didn't ask you to be, and you make the claim anyway, that's just going to result in people thinking that you are an arsehole.

There, now you might have learned something today.

 

[sharon45]

You know, you could have just said as much at the outset, instead of constructing an elaborate mystery test because you are here to teach instead of engage in a discussion.

That isn't the point. First, I didn't create such a test anywhere near what you describe here, and second, just like walking and chewing gum, I can easily partake in discourse, and teach at the same time. Of course this doesn't guarantee that others will learn, but I know that I at least will.

At that point, you might have learned something else. You aren't the only person who has experienced the loss of a close family member.

Paint me shocked.

This is how most people acquire that empathy we are discussing (not teaching).

Okay, we got it, but this forum is for various tastes, some like being taught as they discuss, I certainly do.

Sure, there isn't much that is going to console you when you are in that state, the best you can hope for is a shoulder to cry on.

Well, I didn't need that either.

When you do call a grieving person about their lost loved one, you had better make sure you do so with empathy.

As I pointed out a few times before, everyone has their own personal idea of empathy. The real mistake here is thinking your version is the same as someone else's.

The leader of the free world failed to meet that bar, likely because he is incapable of feeling empathy in such a situation. That is what this is about.

Once again, it is not honestly about empathy, even if the title of this thread is.

Not that you will learn anything from this exchange, given that you are only here to teach.

Obviously I learned here as I said, and taught way above, but looks like you weren't able to learn this, yet.

 

[sharon45]

You know, you could have just said as much at the outset, instead of constructing an elaborate mystery test because you are here to teach preach instead of engage in a discussion.

FIFY.
Re: Kelly... he probably didn't WANT to be trotted out to repeat the lies of a fat orange turd, but I'm sure he faced an ultimatum. His patriotic nature caused him to sacrifice his own credibility and all semblance of honesty, in order to maintain a position from which he can beat FFvC to the nuclear "football".

He is in politics now, he better start getting used to lying and manipulating

 

[sharon45]

I don't understand how it relates to what you wrote, but it is based on many people's responses I have seen when someone without much confidence tries to be empathic, and are quickly shown that they are not very good at dealing with any unexpected backlash.

Because like the statement. "I have a shield." Your assertion comes out of nowhere and has zero basis in reality. You have no reason to assume someone you don't know would respond in the way you've asserted.

No wonder I didn't get your example at first, it is because you also misunderstood my illustration. That is why I pointed out not to be afraid of asking questions, I sure am not.