Trump attacks Franken for groping a woman

[Horatio Parker]

Attacking the accuser is the kind of thing Republicans do. We should not sink to their level.

Whether or not she is wrong is unrelated to whether or not Franken was wrong.

Gimme a break. Tweeden dry humping Robin Williams on stage is a joke, but Al giving tongue during a stage kiss is a deadly serious act of sexual assault?

Context matters.

 

[Underseer]

Attacking the accuser is the kind of thing Republicans do. We should not sink to their level.

Whether or not she is wrong is unrelated to whether or not Franken was wrong.

Gimme a break. Tweeden dry humping Robin Williams on stage is a joke, but Al giving tongue during a stage kiss is a deadly serious act of sexual assault?

Context matters.

What the victim did is unrelated to what Franken did. To say otherwise is to commit a tu quoque fallacy. Just like what Franken did is unrelated to what Moore and Trump did.

Would it help if I provided you with a link to a definition of the fallacy?

 

[Horatio Parker]

Attacking the accuser is the kind of thing Republicans do. We should not sink to their level.

Whether or not she is wrong is unrelated to whether or not Franken was wrong.

Gimme a break. Tweeden dry humping Robin Williams on stage is a joke, but Al giving tongue during a stage kiss is a deadly serious act of sexual assault?

Context matters.

What the victim did is unrelated to what Franken did. To say otherwise is to commit a tu quoque fallacy. Just like what Franken did is unrelated to what Moore and Trump did.

Would it help if I provided you with a link to a definition of the fallacy?

It's not unrelated. If there is sexual horseplay going on, it matters. It's much easier to step over the line, and should be judged accordingly.

I'm not arguing that Franken was not wrong. I'm taking Tweeden at her word. But in view of the show biz environment and her hijinks, it's of less an offense than otherwise.

 

[RavenSky]

Gimme a break. Tweeden dry humping Robin Williams on stage is a joke, but Al giving tongue during a stage kiss is a deadly serious act of sexual assault?

Context matters.

What the victim did is unrelated to what Franken did. To say otherwise is to commit a tu quoque fallacy. Just like what Franken did is unrelated to what Moore and Trump did.

Would it help if I provided you with a link to a definition of the fallacy?

It's not unrelated. If there is sexual horseplay going on, it matters. It's much easier to step over the line, and should be judged accordingly.

I'm not arguing that Franken was not wrong. I'm taking Tweeden at her word. But in view of the show biz environment and her hijinks, it's of less an offense than otherwise.

I disagree that it is "less an offense" or that Tweeden's other actions have any bearing on Franken's actions.

Franken did not have her consent to faux-grope her. He was wrong. The fact that she has a history of groping other people without their permission does not make his wrong any greater or lesser.

I do think that Franken's wrong is vast magnitudes less than the wrongs of Moore, Weinstein, Trump, et.al. but is being used in a sort of moral equivalency fallacy by Republicans (and Tweeden herself) in a political whataboutism game; but that is separate from an opinion on what he did do... which is in turn completely separate from what she did in unrelated encounters.

 

[Malintent]

I can't disagree with what Raven just wrote above.

I disagree that what rational people can agree on being "right" is in any way related to what the "right" thing to do in the arena of politics is, though.

Unfortunately, the "right" thing for the senator to have done, within the realm of politics, would have been to say, "it was a joke. I'm not touching her in that picture, obviously. Why would I have posed for a picture if I was doing something illegal? That is just silly. I was a comic prior to being a senator, and this was part of a skit. Nice try, though." And in response to any question, "I would ask that of Trump or Moore and then get back to me with that".

 

[J842P]

What the victim did is unrelated to what Franken did. To say otherwise is to commit a tu quoque fallacy. Just like what Franken did is unrelated to what Moore and Trump did.

Would it help if I provided you with a link to a definition of the fallacy?

It's not unrelated. If there is sexual horseplay going on, it matters. It's much easier to step over the line, and should be judged accordingly.

I'm not arguing that Franken was not wrong. I'm taking Tweeden at her word. But in view of the show biz environment and her hijinks, it's of less an offense than otherwise.

I disagree that it is "less an offense" or that Tweeden's other actions have any bearing on Franken's actions.

Franken did not have her consent to faux-grope her. He was wrong. The fact that she has a history of groping other people without their permission does not make his wrong any greater or lesser.

I do think that Franken's wrong is vast magnitudes less than the wrongs of Moore, Weinstein, Trump, et.al. but is being used in a sort of moral equivalency fallacy by Republicans (and Tweeden herself) in a political whataboutism game; but that is separate from an opinion on what he did do... which is in turn completely separate from what she did in unrelated encounters.

To be fair, I read that Tweeden was on the record about not thinking it was on the same level as Weistein, for example.

 

[Horatio Parker]

I disagree that it is "less an offense" or that Tweeden's other actions have any bearing on Franken's actions.

Franken did not have her consent to faux-grope her. He was wrong. The fact that she has a history of groping other people without their permission does not make his wrong any greater or lesser.

I do think that Franken's wrong is vast magnitudes less than the wrongs of Moore, Weinstein, Trump, et.al. but is being used in a sort of moral equivalency fallacy by Republicans (and Tweeden herself) in a political whataboutism game; but that is separate from an opinion on what he did do... which is in turn completely separate from what she did in unrelated encounters.

I wouldn't hold Tweeden any more or less responsible than any one else in that touring company. But that the decorum there was somewhat relaxed is relevant IMO. I wouldn't know if there is any legal difference, but to my mind there's certainly a moral one. An atmosphere where people chuck each on the ass is more liable to lead to a problem or misunderstanding.

 

[Elixir]

the decorum there was somewhat relaxed

Well, that's the problem, isn't it? Environments that feature such "relaxed decorum", such as touring companies, casting rooms, pageant dressing rooms, senate offices, fucking Alabama (including its shopping malls) ...
Decorum is a sum of activities considered permissible in a circumstance, and "relaxed decorum" is generally a male-induced set of parameters for behavioral acceptability that have historically included a set of behaviors that have recently become "no longer acceptable", regardless of circumstance.
If you want to let Franken off the hook because his behavior was more acceptable when he did it than it is now, well fine. But you have to give Cheato and Moore the same leeway, and considering the climate of 1970s Alabama, semi-kidnapping a 14 year old girl and whacking off in front of her, was probably in violation of "acceptable decorum" there and then, about as much as Franken was in violation of "touring company decorum" when he groped Tweeden. (That's how backward Alabama really is.)

Franken, Moore, Cheato... They should ALL step down, go home and think about what they've done for a couple of decades. By then the pendulum will probably have swung back in their favor. And Cheato willbe dead, so the problem will be somewhat less urgent.
</sarcasm>

Don't get me wrong, I despise molesters of both political parties. And I despise the unrepentant ones the most.

 

[RavenSky]

I wouldn't hold Tweeden any more or less responsible than any one else in that touring company. But that the decorum there was somewhat relaxed is relevant IMO. I wouldn't know if there is any legal difference, but to my mind there's certainly a moral one. An atmosphere where people chuck each on the ass is more liable to lead to a problem or misunderstanding.

I don't disagree with you in what you say... only with whether it matters. The overall atmosphere may have lead to a misunderstanding, but in no universe should Al Franken have assumed that what he did was o.k. In hindsight, he agrees and he apologised.

 

[Horatio Parker]

the decorum there was somewhat relaxed

Well, that's the problem, isn't it? Environments that feature such "relaxed decorum", such as touring companies, casting rooms, pageant dressing rooms, senate offices, fucking Alabama (including its shopping malls) ...
Decorum is a sum of activities considered permissible in a circumstance, and "relaxed decorum" is generally a male-induced set of parameters for behavioral acceptability that have historically included a set of behaviors that have recently become "no longer acceptable", regardless of circumstance.
If you want to let Franken off the hook because his behavior was more acceptable when he did it than it is now, well fine. But you have to give Cheato and Moore the same leeway, and considering the climate of 1970s Alabama, semi-kidnapping a 14 year old girl and whacking off in front of her, was probably in violation of "acceptable decorum" there and then, about as much as Franken was in violation of "touring company decorum" when he groped Tweeden. (That's how backward Alabama really is.)

Franken, Moore, Cheato... They should ALL step down, go home and think about what they've done for a couple of decades. By then the pendulum will probably have swung back in their favor. And Cheato willbe dead, so the problem will be somewhat less urgent.
</sarcasm>

Don't get me wrong, I despise molesters of both political parties. And I despise the unrepentant ones the most.

Once again, I'm not trying to get Franken off the hook. I am suggesting that there is some perhaps unappreciated nuance to the story.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

It's so damn awkward trying to form an opinion on things with Jon Stewart around to tell us what to think.

 

[RavenSky]

Once again, I'm not trying to get Franken off the hook. I am suggesting that there is some perhaps unappreciated nuance to the story.

The only nuance I see is that we live in a society that causes people like Al Franken to think that a sleeping woman consents to a faux-grope based on her conscious behavior elsewhere.

I don't think Al Franken is a predator. I think he made a mistake, exhibited poor judgement.

But we need to live in a society where good men DON'T make this type of mistake. The line has to be so crystal clear in everyone's mind that no amount of flirting or previous relationship or drinking or behavior on her part would allow a man to think that he can use her in a sexual manner without her affirmative consent. (And yes, that goes for women's behavior towards other people, too)

Anything less than that gives cover to serial predators like Trump and Moore and Weinstein and Weiner...

 

[RavenSky]

wrong thread

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Attacking the accuser is the kind of thing Republicans do. We should not sink to their level. Regardless of what she did or did not do, that cannot possibly justify what Franken did. Thus is a tu quoque fallacy.

On one hand it could explain the mindset of Franken to commit such an act, because she was sending out 'a signal' (attention women, the following is list of things women do that men interpret as a signal of sexual interest: grinding/groping other people, being in the same zip code), but it doesn't excuse or justify the act.

 

[Horatio Parker]

Attacking the accuser is the kind of thing Republicans do. We should not sink to their level. Regardless of what she did or did not do, that cannot possibly justify what Franken did. Thus is a tu quoque fallacy.

On one hand it could explain the mindset of Franken to commit such an act, because she was sending out 'a signal' (attention women, the following is list of things women do that men interpret as a signal of sexual interest: grinding/groping other people, being in the same zip code), but it doesn't excuse or justify the act.

Yes, exactly.

 

[Malintent]

the decorum there was somewhat relaxed

Well, that's the problem, isn't it? Environments that feature such "relaxed decorum", such as touring companies, casting rooms, pageant dressing rooms, senate offices, fucking Alabama (including its shopping malls) ...
Decorum is a sum of activities considered permissible in a circumstance, and "relaxed decorum" is generally a male-induced set of parameters for behavioral acceptability that have historically included a set of behaviors that have recently become "no longer acceptable", regardless of circumstance.
If you want to let Franken off the hook because his behavior was more acceptable when he did it than it is now, well fine. But you have to give Cheato and Moore the same leeway, and considering the climate of 1970s Alabama, semi-kidnapping a 14 year old girl and whacking off in front of her, was probably in violation of "acceptable decorum" there and then, about as much as Franken was in violation of "touring company decorum" when he groped Tweeden. (That's how backward Alabama really is.)

Franken, Moore, Cheato... They should ALL step down, go home and think about what they've done for a couple of decades. By then the pendulum will probably have swung back in their favor. And Cheato willbe dead, so the problem will be somewhat less urgent.
</sarcasm>

Don't get me wrong, I despise molesters of both political parties. And I despise the unrepentant ones the most.

Once again, I'm not trying to get Franken off the hook. I am suggesting that there is some perhaps unappreciated nuance to the story.

I don't no nothing about no new-ants. MAKE GOBNANT GREAT AGUN. LOCK EM UP!

 

[Horatio Parker]

Well, that's the problem, isn't it? Environments that feature such "relaxed decorum", such as touring companies, casting rooms, pageant dressing rooms, senate offices, fucking Alabama (including its shopping malls) ...
Decorum is a sum of activities considered permissible in a circumstance, and "relaxed decorum" is generally a male-induced set of parameters for behavioral acceptability that have historically included a set of behaviors that have recently become "no longer acceptable", regardless of circumstance.
If you want to let Franken off the hook because his behavior was more acceptable when he did it than it is now, well fine. But you have to give Cheato and Moore the same leeway, and considering the climate of 1970s Alabama, semi-kidnapping a 14 year old girl and whacking off in front of her, was probably in violation of "acceptable decorum" there and then, about as much as Franken was in violation of "touring company decorum" when he groped Tweeden. (That's how backward Alabama really is.)

Franken, Moore, Cheato... They should ALL step down, go home and think about what they've done for a couple of decades. By then the pendulum will probably have swung back in their favor. And Cheato willbe dead, so the problem will be somewhat less urgent.
</sarcasm>

Don't get me wrong, I despise molesters of both political parties. And I despise the unrepentant ones the most.

Once again, I'm not trying to get Franken off the hook. I am suggesting that there is some perhaps unappreciated nuance to the story.

I don't no nothing about no new-ants. MAKE GOBNANT GREAT AGUN. LOCK EM UP!

Sure - if you can find a complainant or a crime.

That's the danger of conflating Frankens actions with someone like Moores - luring an underage girl into a car under false pretext, driving to a secluded area and trying to force a blow job.

 

[Malintent]

Once again, I'm not trying to get Franken off the hook. I am suggesting that there is some perhaps unappreciated nuance to the story.

I don't no nothing about no new-ants. MAKE GOBNANT GREAT AGUN. LOCK EM UP!

Sure - if you can find a complainant or a crime.

That's the danger of conflating Frankens actions with someone like Moores - luring an underage girl into a car under false pretext, driving to a secluded area and trying to force a blow job.

I don't let no Librul CON-fate me! All teh politishuns do the same. so just git the ones that love Jesus and it'll all be hunky dory.

 

[Minnemooseus]

Franken did not have her consent to faux-grope her. He was wrong. The fact that she has a history of groping other people without their permission does not make his wrong any greater or lesser.

Hope I didn't muck up the quote structure too badly.

I'm late to the game at this forum, but Franken has come up in another currently active topic. Doing an "Al Franken" search found this topic, among others.

Al Franken is guilty of being on the wrong side of a staged photograph of a dubious joke (in essence, he was pantomiming "groping the ungropable" - Tweeden, in her body armor and helmet costume. And I suspect that Tweeden was a willing and active participant in the photographs staging.

A big part of the case against Franken is that a number of women have claimed that "he touched my butt" while posing for photographs at the Minnesota state fair. The only photo I've seen is Al standing besides a woman with his hands not visible. But in that low resolution photo, it does appear that Franken's hand and fingers were photo shopped out of being on the woman's right shoulder.

Al has probably posed for thousands of photos with men and women at the Minnesota state fair. A very public place with hoards of people having cameras. Yet, no state fair photo has come out, documenting Franken misbehavior.

I think that the case of Al Franken was a "metoo swiftboating". While certainly many women have been improperly treated and should be believed when the say that they were improperly treated, I do think their is a very real possibility of a number of women lying or at least blurring the line between truth and lie.

At evcforum.net, I started the "Senator Al Franken?" topic back in 2005, when Al was first floating the idea of running for the Senate. That topic more or less fell idle for a while, then became active when Al actually ran, then again more or less fell idle until the Tweeden photo broke. - http://www.evcforum.net/dm.php?control=msg&t=12000

Moose

Added by edit - To clarify the quote attribution, this message is a reply to RavenSky message 44.