Trump Fires Air Safety Experts - What Could Possibly Go Wrong?

[barbos]

How are the pilots of a CRJ supposed to see a helicopter that is below and ahead of them?

Easy, open the cabin window and stick your head out as much as you can.

 

[bilby]

How are the pilots of a CRJ supposed to see a helicopter that is below and ahead of them?

Easy, open the cabin window and stick your head out as much as you can.

They tried something similar on BA5390. I don't think the captain is keen to do it again.

 

[ZiprHead]

The helicopter pilot was in his designated corridor, following all of the standard procedures correctly.

it’s unclear this was true. Based on what I have heard there was supposed to be a 200 foot ceiling for the helicopter but the collision happened between 350-400 feet or so. Even the secretary of defense (FWIW) admitted there was an altitude issue and mistakes were made.

And the helicopter pilot was supposed to fly to the east behind the airliner.

 

[Shadowy Man]

The helicopter pilot was in his designated corridor, following all of the standard procedures correctly.

it’s unclear this was true. Based on what I have heard there was supposed to be a 200 foot ceiling for the helicopter but the collision happened between 350-400 feet or so. Even the secretary of defense (FWIW) admitted there was an altitude issue and mistakes were made.

Politicians have to blame someone.

150-200ft vertical separation is woefully inadequate even in broad daylight.

This may be true but it would mean that the helicopter was not “following all the standard procedures correctly”.

Not at all. It was correctly within its assigned airspace;

maybe I’m missing something you are trying to say, but if it’s assigned airspace has a ceiling of 200 feet and it was 150-200 feet above that, how was it “correctly” in its airspace?

 

[barbos]

How are the pilots of a CRJ supposed to see a helicopter that is below and ahead of them?

Easy, open the cabin window and stick your head out as much as you can.

They tried something similar on BA5390. I don't think the captain is keen to do it again.

Come on, I did not suggest doing it at high altitude. At landing cabin pressure is already equalized with outside one.

 

[bilby]

maybe I’m missing something you are trying to say, but if it’s assigned airspace has a ceiling of 200 feet and it was 150-200 feet above that, how was it “correctly” in its airspace?

FAA Order JO 7110.65AA - Air Traffic Control​

7.9.4 SEPARATION
a. Standard IFR services to IFR aircraft.
b. VFR aircraft must be separated from VFR/IFR aircraft/ helicopter/rotorcraft that weigh more than 19,000 pounds and turbojets by no less than:
1. 1 ½ miles separation, or
2. 500 feet vertical separation, or
3. Visual separation, as specified in paragraph 7-2-1, Visual Separation, paragraph 7-4-2, Vectors for Visual Approach, and paragraph 7-6-7, Sequencing.

7.2.1 VISUAL SEPARATION
a.2. Pilot-applied visual separation.
(a) Maintain communication with at least one of the aircraft involved and ensure there is an ability to communicate with the other aircraft.
(b) The pilot sees another aircraft and is instructed to maintain visual separation from the aircraft as follows
(1) Tell the pilot about the other aircraft. Include position, direction, type, and, unless it is obvious, the other aircraft's intention.
(2) Obtain acknowledgment from the pilot that the other aircraft is in sight.
(3) Instruct the pilot to maintain visual separation from that aircraft.

A 500' vertical separation implies a safety margin of 250' above and below each aircraft. This is physically impossible to achieve in this case, but that has been "resolved" by having Visual Separation - in which situation, the helicopter pilot is required to maintain sight of the plane, and fly so as to avoid a collision.

250' is a tiny vertical distance in the context of aviation. Indeed, it is so small that officially it is zero - if everyone is within 250' of their assigned altitudes under Radar Separation, the chances of a collision should remain zero. Under Visual Separation, what distance is acceptable is left to the judgements of the pilots, who have the authority to deviate to avoid collisions when operating in this way.

 

[barbos]

Yeah, visual separation depends on the material of the pilot's balls.
It could be 10 meters for some pilots

 

[bilby]

Yeah, visual separation depends on the material of the pilot's balls.
It could be 10 meters for some pilots

Any pilot with ten metre balls can fly as close to other traffic as he likes. All others I would prefer to maintain a decent separation.

 

[bilby]

From a professional pilots discussion forum:

The procedures effectively abdicate separation responsibility to a single point of failure, where failure is not unlikely and, as a consequence of the airspace design, failure results in high probabilities of collision.

The difficulties of identifying a specific aircraft, at night, in a background of stationary and moving lights, when moving objects on a collision course will always appear stationary to each other, are well known, as are the probabilities of mis-identification. The airspace design 'squeezes' inbound aircraft and transiting helicopters to practicality the same altitude, when instrument and other tolerances are taken into consideration.

 

[Shadowy Man]

maybe I’m missing something you are trying to say, but if it’s assigned airspace has a ceiling of 200 feet and it was 150-200 feet above that, how was it “correctly” in its airspace?

FAA Order JO 7110.65AA - Air Traffic Control​

7.9.4 SEPARATION
a. Standard IFR services to IFR aircraft.
b. VFR aircraft must be separated from VFR/IFR aircraft/ helicopter/rotorcraft that weigh more than 19,000 pounds and turbojets by no less than:
1. 1 ½ miles separation, or
2. 500 feet vertical separation, or
3. Visual separation, as specified in paragraph 7-2-1, Visual Separation, paragraph 7-4-2, Vectors for Visual Approach, and paragraph 7-6-7, Sequencing.

7.2.1 VISUAL SEPARATION
a.2. Pilot-applied visual separation.
(a) Maintain communication with at least one of the aircraft involved and ensure there is an ability to communicate with the other aircraft.
(b) The pilot sees another aircraft and is instructed to maintain visual separation from the aircraft as follows
(1) Tell the pilot about the other aircraft. Include position, direction, type, and, unless it is obvious, the other aircraft's intention.
(2) Obtain acknowledgment from the pilot that the other aircraft is in sight.
(3) Instruct the pilot to maintain visual separation from that aircraft.

A 500' vertical separation implies a safety margin of 250' above and below each aircraft. This is physically impossible to achieve in this case, but that has been "resolved" by having Visual Separation - in which situation, the helicopter pilot is required to maintain sight of the plane, and fly so as to avoid a collision.

250' is a tiny vertical distance in the context of aviation. Indeed, it is so small that officially it is zero - if everyone is within 250' of their assigned altitudes under Radar Separation, the chances of a collision should remain zero. Under Visual Separation, what distance is acceptable is left to the judgements of the pilots, who have the authority to deviate to avoid collisions when operating in this way.

All that doesn’t address the 200 foot ceiling of the pathway the helicopters are supposed to take through that region. I have heard multiple people on the news address that, that there is an altitude restriction for heliocopters in that area. Is that incorrect?

If you are saying that the separation rules must be 500 feet vertical then there should be ZERO helicopter traffic near that airport’s descent paths. Yet apparently it happens all the time.

So I still don’t understand how you are maintaining that the helicopter was correctly following procedures.

It’s ok. I will admit to not knowing all the flight regulations. I’m just trying to think logically through all that I have heard and read.

 

[bilby]

maybe I’m missing something you are trying to say, but if it’s assigned airspace has a ceiling of 200 feet and it was 150-200 feet above that, how was it “correctly” in its airspace?

FAA Order JO 7110.65AA - Air Traffic Control​

7.9.4 SEPARATION
a. Standard IFR services to IFR aircraft.
b. VFR aircraft must be separated from VFR/IFR aircraft/ helicopter/rotorcraft that weigh more than 19,000 pounds and turbojets by no less than:
1. 1 ½ miles separation, or
2. 500 feet vertical separation, or
3. Visual separation, as specified in paragraph 7-2-1, Visual Separation, paragraph 7-4-2, Vectors for Visual Approach, and paragraph 7-6-7, Sequencing.

7.2.1 VISUAL SEPARATION
a.2. Pilot-applied visual separation.
(a) Maintain communication with at least one of the aircraft involved and ensure there is an ability to communicate with the other aircraft.
(b) The pilot sees another aircraft and is instructed to maintain visual separation from the aircraft as follows
(1) Tell the pilot about the other aircraft. Include position, direction, type, and, unless it is obvious, the other aircraft's intention.
(2) Obtain acknowledgment from the pilot that the other aircraft is in sight.
(3) Instruct the pilot to maintain visual separation from that aircraft.

A 500' vertical separation implies a safety margin of 250' above and below each aircraft. This is physically impossible to achieve in this case, but that has been "resolved" by having Visual Separation - in which situation, the helicopter pilot is required to maintain sight of the plane, and fly so as to avoid a collision.

250' is a tiny vertical distance in the context of aviation. Indeed, it is so small that officially it is zero - if everyone is within 250' of their assigned altitudes under Radar Separation, the chances of a collision should remain zero. Under Visual Separation, what distance is acceptable is left to the judgements of the pilots, who have the authority to deviate to avoid collisions when operating in this way.

All that doesn’t address the 200 foot ceiling of the pathway the helicopters are supposed to take through that region. I have heard multiple people on the news address that, that there is an altitude restriction for heliocopters in that area. Is that incorrect?

If you are saying that the separation rules must be 500 feet vertical then there should be ZERO helicopter traffic near that airport’s descent paths. Yet apparently it happens all the time.

So I still don’t understand how you are maintaining that the helicopter was correctly following procedures.

It’s ok. I will admit to not knowing all the flight regulations. I’m just trying to think logically through all that I have heard and read.

Those are the Radar Separation distances. For Visual Separation, the distance is at the pilot's discretion; And in this incident, vertical separation is a red herring. The helicopter was supposed to pass behind not below, the CRJ, which the pilot told ATC she had in sight, and for which VS permission was given.

And vertical separation was impossible within any kind of safe margin.

 

[barbos]

The helicopter was supposed to pass behind not below

And it was clearly not doing that and traffic controller clearly saw it clearly not doing it.

 

[TV and credit cards]

So at that distance from the runway, the passenger aircraft was within the glideslope/localizer. These approaches should be well defined and acknowledged by the army helicopters. The helicopter should never pass under. It is capable of hovering (waiting) for the passenger plane to pass (is it not?) and should have done so even if it was at its proper altitude. This should be treated just like a runway "hold line" for just the reason I mentioned earlier, that the passenger plane's lighting is likely to get lost in the city lights. ATC told the helicopter to pass behind. Should "hold" be standard practice? A helicopter can hover at 200 to 400 feet in altitude or am I missing something?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

As to bilby's thoughts, what I find peculiar about the helicopter is they make almost no diversion in flight. They ask for visual separation, are told to go behind, but they are not in a trajectory that is going behind any nearby plane, in fact, they are veering into the paths of two planes.

This is BS misplaced psychological talking, but the vocalization in the second return to the ATC was almost like 'Yeah, whatever dude.' He had his path and he was sticking to it.

 

[Elixir]

A helicopter can hover at 200 to 400 feet in altitude or am I missing something?

I think the effect that bilby mentioned earlier might be getting underplayed. Maybe it had nothing to do with the whole thing, but...
If a helo is in the same path, but below a fixed wing plane, just how powerful is the downward "sucking" effect that would draw the plane downward? I can imagine a *bump* that would feel like a bit of turbulence momentarily relieving you of half your weight, terminated by a crash. But maybe the speed/weight/lift of the plane would be too great to have that much effect?

 

[Shadowy Man]

A helicopter can hover at 200 to 400 feet in altitude or am I missing something?

I think the effect that bilby mentioned earlier might be getting underplayed. Maybe it had nothing to do with the whole thing, but...
If a helo is in the same path, but below a fixed wing plane, just how powerful is the downward "sucking" effect that would draw the plane downward? I can imagine a *bump* that would feel like a bit of turbulence momentarily relieving you of half your weight, terminated by a crash. But maybe the speed/weight/lift of the plane would be too great to have that much effect?

The helo was directed by ATC to fly behind the CRJ. From the radar videos I have seen it appeared that they turned into the path of the planes. Even if they assumed the next plane landing on Runway 1 was the one they were supposed to avoid it still looked like they were flying into its path not behind.

 

[Elixir]

A helicopter can hover at 200 to 400 feet in altitude or am I missing something?

I think the effect that bilby mentioned earlier might be getting underplayed. Maybe it had nothing to do with the whole thing, but...
If a helo is in the same path, but below a fixed wing plane, just how powerful is the downward "sucking" effect that would draw the plane downward? I can imagine a *bump* that would feel like a bit of turbulence momentarily relieving you of half your weight, terminated by a crash. But maybe the speed/weight/lift of the plane would be too great to have that much effect?

The helo was directed by ATC to fly behind the CRJ. From the radar videos I have seen it appeared that they turned into the path of the planes. Even if they assumed the next plane landing on Runway 1 was the one they were supposed to avoid it still looked like they were flying into its path not behind.

But, absent the effect bilby brought up, would the plane have passed safely above the helo?

 

[Politesse]

Yeah, visual separation depends on the material of the pilot's balls.
It could be 10 meters for some pilots

"Conceited" and "safe" are not synonyms.

 

[TV and credit cards]

A helicopter can hover at 200 to 400 feet in altitude or am I missing something?

I think the effect that bilby mentioned earlier might be getting underplayed. Maybe it had nothing to do with the whole thing, but...
If a helo is in the same path, but below a fixed wing plane, just how powerful is the downward "sucking" effect that would draw the plane downward? I can imagine a *bump* that would feel like a bit of turbulence momentarily relieving you of half your weight, terminated by a crash. But maybe the speed/weight/lift of the plane would be too great to have that much effect?

My point is the helo would never get so far as to be under the passenger aircraft. That ATC should not tell the helo to pass behind but to order it to hold a position well short of the passenger craft on approach. It seems to me if a helo can stop and hover, it should do so.
It is what planes and vehicle traffic within an airport's area of operation do. And it is not a matter of getting a visual. You always stop at the dashed lines, get permission from ATC, then proceed.
Perhaps I missed a reading somewhere but I'm assuming helos buzzing around DCA is unique due to DCA. Regardless, a rule should have been put in place unique to helos.

 

[Shadowy Man]

Regardless, a rule should have been put in place unique to helos.

apparently, one of those rules was a 200 foot ceiling but it wasn’t followed.