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Trump just won

Stop calling Trump voters racist. <vacuous screed deleted>

Okay. Racists overwhelmingly voted for Trump. Is that better?
Virtually every fact of the matter addressed in that article can be inverted in the same manner. I agree that broad-brush characterizations are generally bad, and can indeed lead down a variety of slippery slopes. But ignoring Trump's pandering to racists, misogynists and xenophobes of all stripes, is also counter-productive and dangerous. Let's not pretend that he's some kind of nice guy with the well-being of others (esp. "all Americans") foremost in his mind, eh?
 
If socialists had promoted vegetarian diets, would that make vegetarianism socialist as well?

Irrelevant. You made a claim that something wasn't socialism when it in fact is. Throwing this non-sequitur in the mix isn't helping your argument.
It is not a non-sequitur. It is basic logic. Working against child labor was not uniquely socialist. Therefore it is bit naive or disingenuous to attribute the achievement of anti-labor laws as a triumph of socialism. I never called anti-labor laws were not advocated by socialists or part of the socialist agenda.

- - - Updated - - -

Irrelevant. You made a claim that something wasn't socialism when it in fact is. Throwing this non-sequitur in the mix isn't helping your argument.
Maybe what he is arguing is yet another temporal fallacy. Abolishing child labor is not what we think of socialism today (because it has already been done). Today we consider the full Marxian idea of elimination of capitalism and public ownership of the means of production to be Socialism. Those planks on the Socialist Worker's Party of 1928 platform were not a full expression of Marxism but did embody some of the concerns of socialism. They were certainly considered to be socialist ideas in 1928. The Major parties at the time fully supported the working conditions that existed which had the overwhelming support of the voting population - which is why the socialist worker's party never elected a president.
No. I am arguing for the application of basic reasoning.

Ostensibly eliminating racism is both a Republican. Socialist and Democratic ideal. Does that mean that eliminating racism is socialism?
 
Irrelevant. You made a claim that something wasn't socialism when it in fact is. Throwing this non-sequitur in the mix isn't helping your argument.
It is not a non-sequitur. It is basic logic. Working against child labor was not uniquely socialist. Therefore it is bit naive or disingenuous to attribute the achievement of anti-labor laws as a triumph of socialism. I never called anti-labor laws were not advocated by socialists or part of the socialist agenda.

- - - Updated - - -

Irrelevant. You made a claim that something wasn't socialism when it in fact is. Throwing this non-sequitur in the mix isn't helping your argument.
Maybe what he is arguing is yet another temporal fallacy. Abolishing child labor is not what we think of socialism today (because it has already been done). Today we consider the full Marxian idea of elimination of capitalism and public ownership of the means of production to be Socialism. Those planks on the Socialist Worker's Party of 1928 platform were not a full expression of Marxism but did embody some of the concerns of socialism. They were certainly considered to be socialist ideas in 1928. The Major parties at the time fully supported the working conditions that existed which had the overwhelming support of the voting population - which is why the socialist worker's party never elected a president.
No. I am arguing for the application of basic reasoning.

Ostensibly eliminating racism is both a Republican. Socialist and Democratic ideal. Does that mean that eliminating racism is socialism?
Then "reason" why neither of the major parties even considered such planks for their platform in 1928 and yet handily won the presidency with overwhelming support from the voters. And yet only the Socialist Worker's Party had those planks but were soundly defeated.
 
It is not a non-sequitur. It is basic logic. Working against child labor was not uniquely socialist. Therefore it is bit naive or disingenuous to attribute the achievement of anti-labor laws as a triumph of socialism. I never called anti-labor laws were not advocated by socialists or part of the socialist agenda.

- - - Updated - - -

Irrelevant. You made a claim that something wasn't socialism when it in fact is. Throwing this non-sequitur in the mix isn't helping your argument.
Maybe what he is arguing is yet another temporal fallacy. Abolishing child labor is not what we think of socialism today (because it has already been done). Today we consider the full Marxian idea of elimination of capitalism and public ownership of the means of production to be Socialism. Those planks on the Socialist Worker's Party of 1928 platform were not a full expression of Marxism but did embody some of the concerns of socialism. They were certainly considered to be socialist ideas in 1928. The Major parties at the time fully supported the working conditions that existed which had the overwhelming support of the voting population - which is why the socialist worker's party never elected a president.
No. I am arguing for the application of basic reasoning.

Ostensibly eliminating racism is both a Republican. Socialist and Democratic ideal. Does that mean that eliminating racism is socialism?
Then "reason" why neither of the major parties even considered such planks for their platform in 1928 and yet handily won the presidency with overwhelming support from the voters. And yet only the Socialist Worker's Party had those planks but were soundly defeated.
Answer my question first.
 
It is not a non-sequitur. It is basic logic. Working against child labor was not uniquely socialist. Therefore it is bit naive or disingenuous to attribute the achievement of anti-labor laws as a triumph of socialism. I never called anti-labor laws were not advocated by socialists or part of the socialist agenda.

- - - Updated - - -

Irrelevant. You made a claim that something wasn't socialism when it in fact is. Throwing this non-sequitur in the mix isn't helping your argument.
Maybe what he is arguing is yet another temporal fallacy. Abolishing child labor is not what we think of socialism today (because it has already been done). Today we consider the full Marxian idea of elimination of capitalism and public ownership of the means of production to be Socialism. Those planks on the Socialist Worker's Party of 1928 platform were not a full expression of Marxism but did embody some of the concerns of socialism. They were certainly considered to be socialist ideas in 1928. The Major parties at the time fully supported the working conditions that existed which had the overwhelming support of the voting population - which is why the socialist worker's party never elected a president.
No. I am arguing for the application of basic reasoning.

Ostensibly eliminating racism is both a Republican. Socialist and Democratic ideal. Does that mean that eliminating racism is socialism?
Then "reason" why neither of the major parties even considered such planks for their platform in 1928 and yet handily won the presidency with overwhelming support from the voters. And yet only the Socialist Worker's Party had those planks but were soundly defeated.
Answer my question first.
No you couldn't call a case where everyone agrees on cause specifically for one of the parties, but we are not talking about an issue where everyone agrees.

Now answer the topic of the 1928 election where everyone did not agree. Only the Socialist Worker's Party had such platforms but were soundly defeated. The major parties supported the status quo of working conditions and handily won the election... why?

I can give you a hint. Those planks were only supported by an unpopular minor third party. But the other parties later adopted those planks because they thought they needed those votes that did see value in them.
 
No you couldn't call a case where everyone agrees on cause specifically for one of the parties, but we are not talking about an issue where everyone agrees.
Just because I gave examples of 3 parties, does not everyone agrees that eliminating racism is an ideal. So, answer the question.


Now answer the topic of the 1928 election where everyone did not agree. Only the Socialist Worker's Party had such platforms but were soundly defeated. The major parties supported the status quo of working conditions and handily won the election... why?
There are probably dozens, if not more, reasons that have nothing to do with a specific plank of any party.
 
Stop calling Trump voters racist. <vacuous screed deleted>

Okay. Racists overwhelmingly voted for Trump. Is that better?
Virtually every fact of the matter addressed in that article can be inverted in the same manner. I agree that broad-brush characterizations are generally bad, and can indeed lead down a variety of slippery slopes. But ignoring Trump's pandering to racists, misogynists and xenophobes of all stripes, is also counter-productive and dangerous. Let's not pretend that he's some kind of nice guy with the well-being of others (esp. "all Americans") foremost in his mind, eh?

Is preventing illegal immigration and deporting rapists and criminals who are not citizens racist?
 
Okay. Racists overwhelmingly voted for Trump. Is that better?
Virtually every fact of the matter addressed in that article can be inverted in the same manner. I agree that broad-brush characterizations are generally bad, and can indeed lead down a variety of slippery slopes. But ignoring Trump's pandering to racists, misogynists and xenophobes of all stripes, is also counter-productive and dangerous. Let's not pretend that he's some kind of nice guy with the well-being of others (esp. "all Americans") foremost in his mind, eh?

Is preventing illegal immigration and deporting rapists and criminals who are not citizens racist?

Put on your thinking cap and figure that out for yourself. I made no such suggestion, but I do appreciate that you seek my council before forming an opinion.
 
Irrelevant. You made a claim that something wasn't socialism when it in fact is. Throwing this non-sequitur in the mix isn't helping your argument.
Maybe what he is arguing is yet another temporal fallacy. Abolishing child labor is not what we think of socialism today (because it has already been done). Today we consider the full Marxian idea of elimination of capitalism and public ownership of the means of production to be Socialism. Those planks on the Socialist Worker's Party of 1928 platform were not a full expression of Marxism but did embody some of the concerns of socialism. They were certainly considered to be socialist ideas in 1928. The Major parties at the time fully supported the working conditions that existed which had the overwhelming support of the voting population - which is why the socialist worker's party never elected a president.

Already by 1928 socialism had diversified to mean a whole host of different things. Marx was right about lots of things. But he's mostly remembered for all the things he was wrong about. And he was wrong about plenty. But already in Marx's day communism ranged all the way from full-on anarchists to totalitarian authoritarianism. Early on the words communism and socialism were used interchangeably. But over time socialists came to be associated with slow gradual democratic change. While both the anarchists and authoritarians used the term communism. It was radicals against non-radicals. Keep in mind that in Europe this difference grew in a world without democracy.

I'm no Marxist. I just think it's a shame his name has been dragged in the dirt. He's one of the greatest thinkers and geniuses humanity has ever produced. Few people have had such a positive impact on how the modern world developed. If we managed to salvage Nietzsche from the Nazis I don't see why we can't salvage Marx from the USSR style communists.

Fun detail, Marx was an utter cunt. He was all for freedom of opinion as long as everybody agreed with him. But of course, people can be smart without being pleasant people to be around. Apparently he was one of those.
 
Stop calling Trump voters racist. <vacuous screed deleted>

Okay. Racists overwhelmingly voted for Trump. Is that better?
Virtually every fact of the matter addressed in that article can be inverted in the same manner. I agree that broad-brush characterizations are generally bad, and can indeed lead down a variety of slippery slopes. But ignoring Trump's pandering to racists, misogynists and xenophobes of all stripes, is also counter-productive and dangerous. Let's not pretend that he's some kind of nice guy with the well-being of others (esp. "all Americans") foremost in his mind, eh?

What he wrote was "stop crying wolf". What you wrote in response was "wolf wolf wolf."

He even backed up his case with numbers, but that's not important now is it? Numbers such as "As of 2016, the Anti-Defamation League puts total Klan membership nationwide at around 3,000, while the Southern Poverty Law Center puts it at 6,000 members total." Such a huge voting block, surely they represent the opinion of the majority of Trump supporters.

Nope, it is "wolf wolf".

Oh, he also analyzed the part about Trump and David Duke. Where Trump had repudiated Duke decades ago and continued to do so to this day.

In 2000, Trump was already considering running for President. His friend Jesse Ventura suggested he seek the Presidential nomination of Ross Perot's Reform Party. Trump agreed and started putting together a small campaign (interesting historical trivia: he wanted Oprah Winfrey as a running mate). But after some infighting in the Reform Party, Ventura was kicked out in favor of a faction led by populist Pat Buchanan, who had some support from David Duke. Trump closed his presidential bid, saying: "The Reform Party now includes a Klansman, Mr. Duke, a neo-Nazi, Mr. Buchanan, and a communist, Ms. Fulani. This is not company I wish to keep." Later he continued to condemn the party, saying "You’ve got David Duke just joined — a bigot, a racist, a problem. I mean, this is not exactly the people you want in your party.”

Nope, "Wolf wolf".

This guy isn't a Trump apologist. He actually would like to see the Democratic Party succeed. But he thinks that crying "wolf wolf" is the reason Trump won, and of course that makes him a Trump supporter.

If you don't agree in crying wolf, you're a Trump supporter now. Wow.
 
Okay. Racists overwhelmingly voted for Trump. Is that better?
Virtually every fact of the matter addressed in that article can be inverted in the same manner. I agree that broad-brush characterizations are generally bad, and can indeed lead down a variety of slippery slopes. But ignoring Trump's pandering to racists, misogynists and xenophobes of all stripes, is also counter-productive and dangerous. Let's not pretend that he's some kind of nice guy with the well-being of others (esp. "all Americans") foremost in his mind, eh?

What he wrote was "stop crying wolf". What you wrote in response was "wolf wolf wolf."

That's an appropriate response when there's a wolf.

He even backed up his case with numbers, but that's not important now is it? Numbers such as "As of 2016, the Anti-Defamation League puts total Klan membership nationwide at around 3,000, while the Southern Poverty Law Center puts it at 6,000 members total." Such a huge voting block, surely they represent the opinion of the majority of Trump supporters.

Crying "wolf'? Who said that Klan members elected Trump?

Nope, it is "wolf wolf".

Yes, in your case it should probably be "wolf wolf wolf", since nobody (afaik) made such an allegation. I certainly didn't.

Oh, he also analyzed the part about Trump and David Duke. Where Trump had repudiated Duke decades ago and continued to do so to this day.

That's pretty funny, since I saw Trump categorically state that he didn't even know who David Duke was, within the last year. Then I saw tape of him talking about DD years ago.
Educate yourself for free, Jason:

The Complete History Of Donald Trump's Relationship With The White Nationalist Movement
 
wolf wolf

Yeah, that particular link is exactly what the liberal author I quoted was warning against. But when you make it your life's work to find hidden racist quotes, you may just discover some that only you know about and nobody else (including the racists) are aware of.

1. Is Trump getting a lot of his support from white supremacist organizations?

No, because there are not enough organized white supremacists to make up "a lot" of anyone's support.

According to Wikipedia on KKK membership:

As of 2016, the Anti-Defamation League puts total Klan membership nationwide at around 3,000, while the Southern Poverty Law Center puts it at 6,000 members total
The KKK is really small. They could all stay in the same hotel with a bunch of free rooms left over. Or put another way: the entire membership of the KKK is less than the daily readership of this blog.

If you Google "trump KKK", you get 14.8 million results. I know that Google's list of results numbers isn't very accurate. Yet even if they're inflating the numbers by 1000x, and there were only about 14,000 news articles about the supposed Trump-KKK connection this election, there are still two to three articles about a Trump-KKK connection for every single Klansman in the world.

I don't see any sign that there are other official white supremacy movements that are larger than the Klan, or even enough other small ones to substantially raise the estimate of people involved. David Duke called a big pan-white-supremacist meeting in New Orleans in 2005, and despite getting groups from across North America and Europe he was only able to muster 300 attendees (by comparison, NAACP conventions routinely get 10,000).

My guess is that the number of organized white supremacists in the country is in the very low five digits.

And

4. Aren't there a lot of voters who, although not willing to vote for David Duke or even willing to express negative feelings about black people on a poll, still have implicit racist feelings, the kind where they're nervous when they see a black guy on a deserted street at night?

Probably. And this is why I am talking about crying wolf. If you wanted to worry about the voter with subconscious racist attitudes carefully hidden even from themselves, you shouldn't have used the words "openly white supremacist KKK supporter" like a verbal tic.

And most importantly

5. But even if Donald Trump isn't openly white supremacist, didn't he get an endorsement from KKK leader David Duke? Didn't he refuse to reject that endorsement? Doesn't that mean that he secretly wants to court the white supremacist vote?

The answer is no on all counts.

No, Donald Trump did not get an endorsement from KKK leader David Duke. Duke has spoken out in favor of Trump, but refused to give a formal endorsement. You can read the explanation straight from the horse's mouth at davidduke.com: "The ZioMedia Lies: I Have Not Endorsed Donald Trump" (content warning: exactly what you would expect). If you don't want that site in your browser history, you can read the same story at The International Business Times.

No, Donald Trump did not refuse to reject the endorsement. From Washington Post:

From Politico.com:

Donald Trump says he isn’t interested in the endorsement of David Duke, the anti-Semitic former Ku Klux Klan leader who praised the GOP presidential hopeful earlier this week on his radio show.

“I don’t need his endorsement; I certainly wouldn’t want his endorsement,” Trump said during an interview with Bloomberg’s Mark Halperin and John Heilemann. He added: “I don’t need anyone’s endorsement.”

Asked whether he would repudiate the endorsement, Trump said “Sure, I would if that would make you feel better.”

ABC NEWS: “So, are you prepared right now to make a clear and unequivocal statement renouncing the support of all white supremacists?”

TRUMP: “Of course, I am. I mean, there’s nobody that’s done so much for equality as I have. You take a look at Palm Beach, Florida, I built the Mar-a-Lago Club, totally open to everybody; a club that frankly set a new standard in clubs and a new standard in Palm Beach and I’ve gotten great credit for it. That is totally open to everybody. So, of course, I am.”

From CNN:

"David Duke is a bad person, who I disavowed on numerous occasions over the years," Trump said on MSNBC's "Morning Joe."

"I disavowed him. I disavowed the KKK," Trump added. "Do you want me to do it again for the 12th time? I disavowed him in the past, I disavow him now."

The concern comes from a single interview February 28, where Trump was asked to renounce support from David Duke and the KKK, where he gave a non-answer:

"I have to look at the group. I mean, I don't know what group you're talking about," Trump said. "You wouldn't want me to condemn a group that I know nothing about. I'd have to look. If you would send me a list of the groups, I will do research on them and certainly I would disavow if I thought there was something wrong. You may have groups in there that are totally fine - it would be very unfair. So give me a list of the groups and I'll let you know."

This is pretty bad. But the next day Trump was saying that of course he denounced the KKK and blaming a "bad earpiece" for not being able to understand what the interviewer was saying.

Trump's bad earpiece explanation doesn't hold water - he repeated the name "David Duke" in his answer, so he obviously heard it. And his claim that he didn't know who David Duke was doesn't make sense - he's mentioned Duke before in various contexts.

But it's actually worth taking a look at those contexts. In 2000, Trump was already considering running for President. His friend Jesse Ventura suggested he seek the Presidential nomination of Ross Perot's Reform Party. Trump agreed and started putting together a small campaign (interesting historical trivia: he wanted Oprah Winfrey as a running mate). But after some infighting in the Reform Party, Ventura was kicked out in favor of a faction led by populist Pat Buchanan, who had some support from David Duke. Trump closed his presidential bid, saying: "The Reform Party now includes a Klansman, Mr. Duke, a neo-Nazi, Mr. Buchanan, and a communist, Ms. Fulani. This is not company I wish to keep." Later he continued to condemn the party, saying "You’ve got David Duke just joined — a bigot, a racist, a problem. I mean, this is not exactly the people you want in your party.”

So we have Trump - who loudly condemned Duke before February 28th, and who loudly condemned Duke after February 28th - saying on February 28th that he wanted to "look into" who David Duke was before refusing his (non-existent) endorsement. I'm not super sure what's going on. It's possible he wanted to check to see whether it was politically advantageous to officially reject it, which I agree is itself pretty creepy.

But notice that the evidence on the side of Trump being against David Duke includes twenty years of unambiguous statements to that effect. And the evidence of Trump not being against David Duke includes one statement along the lines of "I don't know who he is but I'll look into it" on an interview one time which he later blamed on a bad earpiece and said he totally disavowed.

This gets back to my doubts about "dog whistles". Dog whistling seems to be the theory that if you want to know what someone really believes, you have to throw away decades of consistent statements supporting the side of an issue that everyone else in the world supports, and instead pay attention only to one weird out-of-character non-statement which implies he supports a totally taboo position which is perhaps literally the most unpopular thing it is possible to think.

And then you have to imagine some of the most brilliant rhetoricians and persuaders in the world are calculating that it's worth risking exposure this taboo belief in order to win support from a tiny group with five-digit membership whose support nobody wants, by sending a secret message, which inevitably every single media outlet in the world instantly picks up on and makes the focus of all their coverage for the rest of the election.

Finally, no, none of this suggests that Donald Trump is courting the white supremacist vote. Anybody can endorse anybody with or without their consent. Did you know that the head of the US Communist Party endorsed Hillary, and Hillary never (as far as I know) "renounced" their endorsement? Does that mean Hillary is a Communist? Did you know that a leader of a murderous black supremacist cult supported Donald Trump and Trump said that he "loved" him? Does that mean Trump is a black supremacist? The only time this weird "X endorsed Y, that means Y must support X" thing is brought out, is in favor of the media narrative painting Trump to be a racist.

This, to me, is another form of crying wolf. One day you might have a candidate who openly courts the KKK, in the sense of having a campaign platform saying "I like the KKK and value their support", speaking at Klan meetings, et cetera. And instead, you've wasted the phrase "openly courts the KKK" on somebody with a twenty year history of loudly condemning the KKK, plus one weird interview where he said he didn't know anything about it, then changed his mind the next day and said he hates them.

This part is important: The concern comes from a single interview February 28. Other than all the secret messages and dog whistles, the only thing you really have is a single interview on February 28th. And, to make matters worse, Hillary never repudiated the endorsement of William Quigg, even though Trump repudiated David Duke many times before and after the February 28th interview.

By your standard, which enables you to cry Wolf, Hillary is more qualified for the racist vote than Trump is.
 
<misguided screed deleted>

By your standard, which enables you to cry Wolf, Hillary is more qualified for the racist vote than Trump is.

If that were true, she'd be our President Elect.
In your warped perspective, human attributes simply don't exist. In your world there are only X number of organized racists, Y number of votes would have been required to sway the election, ergo racists were not responsible for electing Trump.

If you are too insipid to understand the multiple fallacies wrapped up in that sorry excuse for "logic", it would be a waste of time to explain it to you. In fact, others have tried, so I already know exactly what kind of reaction any such attempt would elicit.

Enjoy your totally objective views, Jason. But stay away from the fatal traps of introspection and empathy!
 
Wolf Wolf!!!

And according to that liberal blog author I quoted, it is constantly crying wolf that caused the Democrats to lose.

And, to make matters worse, Hillary never repudiated the endorsement of William Quigg, even though Trump repudiated David Duke many times before and after the February 28th interview.
HRC did not need to repudiate something that did not occur, according to Snopes (http://www.snopes.com/kkk-endorses-hillary-clinton/)

Snopes says "Unproven", not "False". You should read the entry before you share it.

I personally have no idea if Quigg is in the KKK or not, but he did endorse her. If you are telling me that there was no KKK endorsement at all, that would indicate you know something about Quigg that I don't know.
 
Snopes says "Unproven", not "False". You should read the entry before you share it.
I didn't say false. Perhaps the problem is you don't or cannot read. From the link
So while it's true that The Telegraph reported (and other outlets disseminated) Quigg's claim that the KKK was now supporting Hillary Clinton and had donated $20,000 to her campaign, that assertion was widely deemed not to be credible by sources familiar with such groups. Moreover, Quigg neither presented proof of his claims nor discussed them seriously.
I personally have no idea if Quigg is in the KKK or not, but he did endorse her.
That is simply not proven. While you are free to believe anything you wish, your belief that something occurred does not make it so.
 
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