Trump's order to fire on civilians is illegal as hell, and already being used to justify murder

[SLD]

if you are at risk of harm of injury causing rocks, consider it an attack.

This is our land, and we have a right to defend it.

Is your idea of an appropriate defense against people throwing rocks, to shoot them?
That's just bonkers.

Are they on US territory? Are they advancing within US territory? Threatening to overwhelm our defensive capabilities by throwing rocks? That HAS to be it if they constitute a threat to "our land".

How far have we fallen since we were able to defend against Japan's 51 divisions and various special-purpose artillery, cavalry, anti-aircraft, and armored units with a total of 1,700,000 men, plus fleets of state of the art warships and aircraft, while helping quash the Trump er, Nazi threat?

Apparently we've fallen to the point where a couple of thousand unarmed civilians a thousand miles away, on foot and without provisions, have 40% of the country hiding under their beds... sheesh.
#Shameful.

You forget. Fast is a Christian. He’s just following the teachings of Jesus in killing his fellow man. Think not that I have come to bring peace, but a sword. You should convert.

SLD

ETA: And if they really are a threat, why aren’t we using air strikes against them now?

 

[Elixir]

ETA: Anderson if they really are a threat, why aren’t we using air strikes against them now?

Seems that we'd need a proxy. Maybe we can get the Saudis to wipe them out for us.

 

[Politesse]

I wonder if the president's thinking was impacted by that incident at the Israeli border some months back. The Naqba protests. Where protestors gathered near a walled border gate, rocks were thrown, bullets were returned, a molotov may have been thrown, quite a lot of people died, and rightwing media spent months justifying and praising the bloodshed.

 

[Harry Bosch]

I wonder if the president's thinking was impacted by that incident at the Israeli border some months back. The Naqba protests. Where protestors gathered near a walled border gate, rocks were thrown, bullets were returned, a molotov may have been thrown, quite a lot of people died, and rightwing media spent months justifying and praising the bloodshed.

I heard that there was a report of some of the members of the caravan throwing rocks at the Mexican police. Who knows. But clearly Trump is using the caravan to scare his supporters.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It is incredible how Trump's handlers manipulate you folk. These people are walking through Mexico, thousands already dispersed in Mexico (or seeking asylum) and have shown no evidence they plan on throwing rocks, yet, Trump has you folks acting as if this is a sure thing. That they'll be an angry mob.

Do you even know why the term handlers is being used? It's not a derogatory term per se, but had it been used to refer to obama, it would be so interpreted in such a derogatory manner that it would inflame others to scream racism.

Wow, you derailed there.

As Darwinism awards are used for, oughtn't it be known that throwing rocks at savage animals come not with likewise repercussions?

Wha?

 

[SLD]

ETA: Anderson if they really are a threat, why aren’t we using air strikes against them now?

Seems that we'd need a proxy. Maybe we can get the Saudis to wipe them out for us.

Well, their crown prince has proven himself to be a ruthless bastard. Not a bad idea.

SLD

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

I see this thread has taken its own course, but back on topic, I have no qualms with meeting an attack with counterattack.

Which, of course, isn't the question. The question is meeting rocks with bullets; or non-lethal force with lethal force.

This is what would be facing non-lethal force:



This is what would be facing lethal force:

 

[Keith&Co.]

I see this thread has taken its own course, but back on topic, I have no qualms with meeting an attack with counterattack.

Which, of course, isn't the question. The question is meeting rocks with bullets; or non-lethal force with lethal force.

Generally, the military's conditions of deadly force actually require someone on your side to DIE before you're supposed to shoot back. A big part of the CoDF is using lesser means whenever possible. Like, ducking behind a rock-proof vehicle, backing away from the fence outside of rock range, not offering yourself as a rock target.

Trump really should be deploying police officers. Those guys can just say 'I feared for my life' and open up.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Trump really should be deploying police officers. Those guys can just say 'I feared for my life' and open up.

Ya, but if they shoot one of these guys while they're still standing on the Mexico side of the border, isn't that technically an act of war?

If you guys are going to declare war on Mexico, it would be best to have the army already there when you do that.

 

[ideologyhunter]

Drones don't need no declarations. Hell, they aint even people inside.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Trump really should be deploying police officers. Those guys can just say 'I feared for my life' and open up.

Ya, but if they shoot one of these guys while they're still standing on the Mexico side of the border, isn't that technically an act of war?

I'm sure Trump's people could spin it as a form of hot-pursuit. It looked like they were going to come into our jurisdiction, and we feared for our lives, so we preemptively riddled the perps with bullets. And saved the government the costs of internment and repatriation.

But it's okay, Mexico will pay for the funerals.

 

[GenesisNemesis]

Look, I have criticized this killing ever since it happened. Not only am I well known as one of the few people on this board who is anti-war no matter the party of the president, I am against executive action of this sort no matter the party of the president.

The Anwar killing counts even though it was Saint Obama who did it. He killed a US citizen, outside of a war zone, without any judicial input. Killing a US citizen by the US government can take place in a few very specified ways - self defense by a government agent, judicial approval, that citizen is embedded in a hostile foreign force, etc. The essence is either actively hostile or judicial input.

Anwar was neither. Even you have to admit it.

So now that I have made my case, you are telling me that opposing the execution of Anwar is to the right of Trump? Does that mean you think Trump is to the left of Bernie? Or do you even know what the fuck you think you are saying in the first place?

So. Precedent. US President can kill anyone at any time without any justification. That is what Obama established. That means if Trump actually goes through with his ridiculous plan to fire on the migrants, he is acting on the Anwar precedent established by Obama.

I agree with your point here whole-heartedly, though I do not think Obama was the first extra-judicial murderer to occupy the White House; many presidents have benefited by the blank check handed to them by the public.

You agree? So, American's shouldn't complain about Trump because of Obama's "precedent"? Should all Americans just keep our mouths shut?

No, we should be complaining about both the negative things that Obama did, and the negative things that Trump did. That isn't to say they both are equally bad. Just that sweeping the negative things Obama did under the rug is unhelpful, if you want to be actually objective about the situation. Anything else is intellectually dishonest.

 

[Elixir]

Is your idea of an appropriate defense against people throwing rocks, to shoot them?
That's just bonkers.

This isn't that hard a concept. If trespassers try to hurt our military, the military have my blessing to hurt the trespassers.

I'm sure your blessing is well appreciated, but I suspect that shooting people for throwing rocks like they do in Israel and third-world autocracies, might contravene international law.
If you are a "Nationalist" though, then I suppose international law be damned, and we can kill anyone who throws rocks or is associated with anyone who throws rocks. After all, you can look around Major League Baseball and see right away that Hispanics are much better throwers than most pure-blooded members of the American Race, so ... what choice do we have? And what's the international community gonna do about it anyhow? Make some noise about being annoyed is all. And those 40% of Americans might feel okay about coming out from under their beds if we destroy the menace of this "Invading Force", right?

 

[WAB]

if you are at risk of harm of injury causing rocks, consider it an attack.

This is our land, and we have a right to defend it.

Is your idea of an appropriate defense against people throwing rocks, to shoot them?
That's just bonkers.

Are they on US territory? Are they advancing within US territory? Threatening to overwhelm our defensive capabilities by throwing rocks? That HAS to be it if they constitute a threat to "our land".

How far have we fallen since we were able to defend against Japan's 51 divisions and various special-purpose artillery, cavalry, anti-aircraft, and armored units with a total of 1,700,000 men, plus fleets of state of the art warships and aircraft, while helping quash the Trump er, Nazi threat?

Apparently we've fallen to the point where a couple of thousand unarmed civilians a thousand miles away, on foot and without provisions, have 40% of the country hiding under their beds... sheesh.
#Shameful.

It's more hatred than fear. My parents, both avid Trump supporters, aren't afraid of these people, they just hate them. They don't want them here, and whether they are impoverished people seeking a new life or criminals matters not in the least.

 

[Elixir]

It's more hatred than fear. My parents, both avid Trump supporters, aren't afraid of these people, they just hate them. They don't want them here, and whether they are impoverished people seeking a new life or criminals matters not in the least.

Truly a sad situation. I don't like families being torn apart, either by Trump's ICE henchmen or by his divisive rhetoric. But it sure seems inevitable that it's going to get worse before it gets better.

 

[Koyaanisqatsi]

It's more hatred than fear. My parents, both avid Trump supporters, aren't afraid of these people, they just hate them. They don't want them here, and whether they are impoverished people seeking a new life or criminals matters not in the least.

Truly a sad situation. I don't like families being torn apart, either by Trump's ICE henchmen or by his divisive rhetoric. But it sure seems inevitable that it's going to get worse before it gets better.

Well, again, it has to a matter of design. The whole purpose is to incite all the white nutjobs to kill as many "minorities" as possible so to rebalance the power in favor of whites. Trump literally sanctioned the use of lethal force against anyone throwing rocks ffs. That is identical to him standing in front of the camera and saying to all of America, "Kill every minority you see right now." At least in the heads of these nutjobs and soon in the heads of those who are not full blown nutjobs, but are being groomed and programmed by white supremacists.

If we take the House tomorrow, that will go a long way toward ebbing that tide, but there will still be a lot more mass killings (likely another couple dozen, maybe even couple hundred). If we lose the House, however, we will start seeing mass killings escalate into the thousands over the next two years to pave the way for 2020 and all tacitly sanctioned by Trump etal.

This is--and always has been--about white supremacy. For the deplorables, not necessarily for Trump. That's just the tool he used to pick the lock of the safe he's looting. Putin and Bannon (for different reasons) are the ones who are unleashing American nazis and pushing for Helter Skelter. Putin wants it because it further destroys America from within; Bannon wants it because he's Göring, if not exactly Hitler.

Guess what they'll be discussing here: DONALD TRUMP TO SPEAK AT HATE GROUP'S ANNUAL EVENT, A FIRST FOR A PRESIDENT

 

[Politesse]

Look, I have criticized this killing ever since it happened. Not only am I well known as one of the few people on this board who is anti-war no matter the party of the president, I am against executive action of this sort no matter the party of the president.

The Anwar killing counts even though it was Saint Obama who did it. He killed a US citizen, outside of a war zone, without any judicial input. Killing a US citizen by the US government can take place in a few very specified ways - self defense by a government agent, judicial approval, that citizen is embedded in a hostile foreign force, etc. The essence is either actively hostile or judicial input.

Anwar was neither. Even you have to admit it.

So now that I have made my case, you are telling me that opposing the execution of Anwar is to the right of Trump? Does that mean you think Trump is to the left of Bernie? Or do you even know what the fuck you think you are saying in the first place?

So. Precedent. US President can kill anyone at any time without any justification. That is what Obama established. That means if Trump actually goes through with his ridiculous plan to fire on the migrants, he is acting on the Anwar precedent established by Obama.

I agree with your point here whole-heartedly, though I do not think Obama was the first extra-judicial murderer to occupy the White House; many presidents have benefited by the blank check handed to them by the public.

You agree? So, American's shouldn't complain about Trump because of Obama's "precedent"? Should all Americans just keep our mouths shut?

Me?

No, I think this is a very serious problem. But I think it is important to understand that we have been expanding the executive powers of the President in a nearly continuous process since that office was first created, with only occasional restrictions being placed on his actions. This isn't a partisan issue. This isn't a Trump issue. This is an American issue, and a battle that we have been losing to the construction of autocracy for several uninterrupted decades now. I do not like Trump, but I also think that many of our decisions over the past forty years at least have made him incredibly more dangerous than he would otherwise have been.

That we are talking here about firing on unarmed indigenous and/or mestizo peoples should not surprise us, because no president has ever been punished in any way for ordering the illegal murder of an indigenous person. Not during decade upon blood-drenched decade of illegal wars with hundreds of indigenous nations, almost to a one ordered by or approved of by the executive branch rather than through Congress as the Constitution would seem to require. Not even in the context of a killing on Mexican rather than US soil, despite many occasions in many years when this has happened. There is a VERY long history here.

Just ask Andrew Jackson... whom Trump deeply admires, seems to be actually familiar with the life history of despite not otherwise being much of a reader, and has openly cited as an influence on the exercise of his office. There is nothing here which has not been seen before.

 

[bilby]

if you are at risk of harm of injury causing rocks, consider it an attack.

This is our land, and we have a right to defend it.

Is your idea of an appropriate defense against people throwing rocks, to shoot them?
That's just bonkers.

Are they on US territory? Are they advancing within US territory? Threatening to overwhelm our defensive capabilities by throwing rocks? That HAS to be it if they constitute a threat to "our land".

How far have we fallen since we were able to defend against Japan's 51 divisions and various special-purpose artillery, cavalry, anti-aircraft, and armored units with a total of 1,700,000 men, plus fleets of state of the art warships and aircraft, while helping quash the Trump er, Nazi threat?

Apparently we've fallen to the point where a couple of thousand unarmed civilians a thousand miles away, on foot and without provisions, have 40% of the country hiding under their beds... sheesh.
#Shameful.

It's more hatred than fear. My parents, both avid Trump supporters, aren't afraid of these people, they just hate them. They don't want them here, and whether they are impoverished people seeking a new life or criminals matters not in the least.

Hating people you know next to nothing about, is perhaps even stupider than fearing them.

 

[Harry Bosch]

You agree? So, American's shouldn't complain about Trump because of Obama's "precedent"? Should all Americans just keep our mouths shut?

No, we should be complaining about both the negative things that Obama did, and the negative things that Trump did. That isn't to say they both are equally bad. Just that sweeping the negative things Obama did under the rug is unhelpful, if you want to be actually objective about the situation. Anything else is intellectually dishonest.

But my complaint is always the double standard. Why does Obama always get held to the highest standard? Maybe the next time we criticize Trump that maybe we could cite Grover Cleveland instead?! Seriously, when we criticized GWB, we didn't cite past presidential actions each time.

 

[WAB]

It's more hatred than fear. My parents, both avid Trump supporters, aren't afraid of these people, they just hate them. They don't want them here, and whether they are impoverished people seeking a new life or criminals matters not in the least.

Hating people you know next to nothing about, is perhaps even stupider than fearing them.

You'll get no argument from me about that.

I have first-hand knowledge of how deep racism runs, and how egregiously stupid it is, having been raised among racists.

The main reason I made that post is because I see so much written about how the right fears this, and the right fears that. In my experience, and I admit it's just my experience, hatred far outweighs fear, and sometimes there's just no fear at all. Racists aren't a bunch of cowards shivering in their boots (though I'm sure many are cowards) - very often they are chomping at the bit for confrontation and a chance to resort to violence. To paint racists as shrinking violets detracts from the true danger they pose, IMO.

Also, my parents DO think they know these people in the caravan. They think they are either coming to have babies here, sell drugs, be criminals, or just live on the dole.

I was married to a Mexican woman for ten years, and I also worked in healthcare foodservice for 30 years. I've worked with many Mexicans, here in Arizona. The restaurants and hotels are overwhelmingly staffed by Mexicans. They are also amazing workers. The best kitchen I ever ran was staffed with a majority of Mexicans. I've told him time and time again, "Pop, I've never met a lazy or incompetent Mexican.", but it falls on deaf ears.