Trying to decide how to respond to Bernie Sanders' fundraising e-mail

[untermensche]

The campaigns really haven't even started yet.

This is going to be an incredibly ugly election.

No issues will be seen through the mud.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

To effect long term and permanent change.

How does this effect long term change?

You are wasting your time.

 

[Horatio Parker]

Because the important platforms for Bernie is to get rid of the rigged trade deals and reign in the banksters. Hillary is directly opposed to Bernie on both these extremely important issues but Trump agrees with Bernie. So this makes it very complicated for the middle class who by in large could care less about all of the little crap differences between democrats and republicans.

So I hope Bernie goes balls to the walls as long as he can until Hillary gets it. There is nothing to lose as far as I'm concerned because if Bernie still loses, maybe Trump will hopefully win.

Trump has succeeded so far because he has tapped into the largely blind rage that people feel toward their economic situation. People don't realize that their diminished wages and diminished prospects are largely the result of the economic policies of the Republicans. Policies meant solely to increase the incomes and the wealth of the already rich, the financial sponsors of the Republican party.

Trump largely blundered into these positions because he used logic and because he didn't have to crawl to the wealthy to get campaign funds for the primaries, owing in large part to his ability to manipulate the media for free coverage as well as his own wealth.

But he is going to need these contributions for a general election campaign (and to payback the loans with which he financed the primary campaign.) Therefore we are already seeing and can expect that he increasingly will be forced to toe the proven Republican party line. In October he already went back on his pledge to raise taxes on the wealthy by proposing to cut the taxes of the wealthy by more than any of the other Republican candidates to forestall an anti-Trump advertising blitz.

Yes. I'm curious how he's going to achieve this. One big advantage he's had is never having had to stay consistent. He can make the headline, then back off next cycle. Is he going to be able to continue that while simultaneously reassuring the money people he's responsive to them.

And he's behind. Many predictions of his downfall have themselves fallen by the wayside, but I don't see how he can do it.

 

[untermensche]

Tearing down the dem party will violate this earlier stance.

He's trying to implant a conscience into the Democratic party.

You don't want it to have one so you label it "tearing down".

Your label is just a reflection of you and says nothing about Bernie or his message.

 

[Harry Bosch]

The idea is to push her leftwards, irrevocably.

Well, the longer that Bernie stays in, the more it strengthens Trump, the less influence that Bernie will have on HRC.

 

[untermensche]

The idea is to push her leftwards, irrevocably.

Well, the longer that Bernie stays in, the more it strengthens Trump, the less influence that Bernie will have on HRC.

This does not logically follow.

People act like they have never seen a US presidential election before.

Bernie talks now because he has a voice now and people are listening now.

As soon as the Democratic convention is over Bernie loses that voice and nobody will be listening anymore.

Hillary will have months to talk without one interruption from Bernie.

This is not the time for Bernie to shut up.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Because the important platforms for Bernie is to get rid of the rigged trade deals and reign in the banksters. Hillary is directly opposed to Bernie on both these extremely important issues but Trump agrees with Bernie. So this makes it very complicated for the middle class who by in large could care less about all of the little crap differences between democrats and republicans.

So I hope Bernie goes balls to the walls as long as he can until Hillary gets it. There is nothing to lose as far as I'm concerned because if Bernie still loses, maybe Trump will hopefully win.

Buddy: you are on drugs. HRC has a very detailed plan to reign in the banks. I'm not going to bother linking it because you are being lazy. Just use Google. She wants to eliminate too big to fail, but through smart legislation. Bernie was to cap big banks. Big woop. Lehman was a small bank (and would fall under Bernie's artificial barrier) and yet it caused great harm in the system. Trump is to the other extreme. He wants to eliminate all rules on the banks. He wants to completely repeal Dodd-Frank!

 

[Harry Bosch]

Well, the longer that Bernie stays in, the more it strengthens Trump, the less influence that Bernie will have on HRC.

This does not logically follow.

People act like they have never seen a US presidential election before.

Bernie talks now because he has a voice now and people are listening now.

As soon as the Democratic convention is over Bernie loses that voice and nobody will be listening anymore.

Hillary will have months to talk without one interruption from Bernie.

This is not the time for Bernie to shut up.

HRC is getting hammered from both sides. She is fighting a two war front. As long as that goes on, she'll lose moderates. The moderates will shift to Trump. So over time, HRC will have to go after the moderates to bring them back. If Bernie could bring in the far left and concentrate on Trump, they could consolidate and focus on shared values and beating Trump. As it is now, Bernie is attacking Hillary, not Trump.

 

[untermensche]

This does not logically follow.

People act like they have never seen a US presidential election before.

Bernie talks now because he has a voice now and people are listening now.

As soon as the Democratic convention is over Bernie loses that voice and nobody will be listening anymore.

Hillary will have months to talk without one interruption from Bernie.

This is not the time for Bernie to shut up.

HRC is getting hammered from both sides. She is fighting a two war front. As long as that goes on, she'll lose moderates. The moderates will shift to Trump. So over time, HRC will have to go after the moderates to bring them back. If Bernie could bring in the far left and concentrate on Trump, they could consolidate and focus on shared values and beating Trump. As it is now, Bernie is attacking Hillary, not Trump.

Nobody is shifting anywhere.

Most Americans that aren't party loyalists make up their minds based in the presidential "debates".

This is just people who don't like Bernie's message and want to shut him up.

 

[Harry Bosch]

HRC is getting hammered from both sides. She is fighting a two war front. As long as that goes on, she'll lose moderates. The moderates will shift to Trump. So over time, HRC will have to go after the moderates to bring them back. If Bernie could bring in the far left and concentrate on Trump, they could consolidate and focus on shared values and beating Trump. As it is now, Bernie is attacking Hillary, not Trump.

Nobody is shifting anywhere.

Most Americans that aren't party loyalists make up their minds based in the presidential "debates".

This is just people who don't like Bernie's message and want to shut him up.

That's incorrect. Current polls show Trump beating Hillary now. I'm not saying that Bernie should shut down. But I'd just rather than he direct his ire at Trump.

 

[untermensche]

Nobody is shifting anywhere.

Most Americans that aren't party loyalists make up their minds based in the presidential "debates".

This is just people who don't like Bernie's message and want to shut him up.

That's incorrect. Current polls show Trump beating Hillary now. I'm not saying that Bernie should shut down. But I'd just rather than he direct his ire at Trump.

Polls aren't worth anything at this point.

His message is the same message he has had for decades.

It's about policy, not people.

 

[Harry Bosch]

That's incorrect. Current polls show Trump beating Hillary now. I'm not saying that Bernie should shut down. But I'd just rather than he direct his ire at Trump.

Polls aren't worth anything at this point.

His message is the same message he has had for decades.

It's about policy, not people.

I think that Bernie needs to decide whether or not he wants to start a movement, or just be a spoiler one hit wonder. If he isn't willing to establish the groundwork, his movement will die out, just like Nader.

 

[untermensche]

Polls aren't worth anything at this point.

His message is the same message he has had for decades.

It's about policy, not people.

I think that Bernie needs to decide whether or not he wants to start a movement, or just be a spoiler one hit wonder. If he isn't willing to establish the groundwork, his movement will die out, just like Nader.

He is so busy all he can do is keep saying the things he has been saying for decades.

It is not up to Bernie to create party unity.

That is the job of the candidate.

Hillary has to attract Bernie supporters to her. She doesn't get them by default.

 

[Ford]

It is not up to Bernie to create party unity.

No, but it is up to Bernie to keep his promises. When he was in single digits in the polls and had begun his long shot campaign, he made it very clear that he was not going to attack his opponents. His campaign would not be a negative one. He would not trash talk. He would respectfully disagree.

He kept at that for a good portion of the primary season. The Democratic debates stood in sharp contrast to the Republican debates. with the former being polite if spirited events, and the latter being more like monkeys flinging their feces at each other.

Bernie surged in the polls. He won primaries. Got a surprising number of votes. His promise of not trash talking his opponents was paying off, and there was a brief moment where it was thought he might actually have a shot at the nomination.


Now that the moment has passed, he's launched negative attacks against Clinton...something he promised not to do. He's to a certain extent throwing a tantrum. If he can't have the nomination, then by god he's going to make the Democratic Party pay for not giving it to him. At this point he should be using his still-considerable support to launch non-stop Bernie-bombs against the presumptive Republican nominee. Exhorting his supporters to prepare themselves to vote against Trump in November. He still has a stage upon which to speak, and instead of using that stage to speak out against Trump, he's trained his rhetorical guns against the candidate who will face Trump in the election.

Bernie's movement doesn't have to die at the Democratic Convention, but ever since it became clear that he's not coming out of that event with the nomination in hand, he seems to be intent on killing it himself.

 

[Harry Bosch]

I think that Bernie needs to decide whether or not he wants to start a movement, or just be a spoiler one hit wonder. If he isn't willing to establish the groundwork, his movement will die out, just like Nader.

He is so busy all he can do is keep saying the things he has been saying for decades.

It is not up to Bernie to create party unity.

That is the job of the candidate.

Hillary has to attract Bernie supporters to her. She doesn't get them by default.

Well, again, it's more about what does Bernie want? Does he want lasting influence, or a flash in the pan? After a bitter 2008 run, HRC told her supporters to "... join me in working as hard for Barack Obama as you have for me,". It was very painful for her. Her supporters were devastated. But she is the nominee today because of her support for Obama in 2008. The question is what will Bernie do?

 

[untermensche]

He is so busy all he can do is keep saying the things he has been saying for decades.

It is not up to Bernie to create party unity.

That is the job of the candidate.

Hillary has to attract Bernie supporters to her. She doesn't get them by default.

Well, again, it's more about what does Bernie want? Does he want lasting influence, or a flash in the pan? After a bitter 2008 run, HRC told her supporters to "... join me in working as hard for Barack Obama as you have for me,". It was very painful for her. Her supporters were devastated. But she is the nominee today because of her support for Obama in 2008. The question is what will Bernie do?

He wants to try to influence as many people as possible.

It's about his message. Not him.

It's a message Americans can't be given enough.

Open your eyes. There are nations out there doing things a lot better than we are doing them.

 

[Rhea]

..... stop talking about corrupt elites.

With all due respect, you can not hope to have any kind of functioning government with corrupt elites. Go no further than ancient Rome to see how your corrupt elites brought it all down.

I don't agree that all are corrupt elites. I haven't seen people who call Clinton a corrupt elite present any evidence that is convincing. They seem to wave their hands and say one-word sentences with lots of exclamation points. Which is not convincing to me.

Obviously, I get it that Hillary is close to your heart with some small issues you feel are important.

"close to my heart" is the kind of snide idiocy that I'm complaining about from a campaign that seems to be trying to gain support and is instead driving it away. Why did you do that? Why did you decide to talk to me that way? It seems like shooting yourself in the foot.

I _like_ Sanders' positions on many things!

I just don't think he can go it absolutely alone and I think therefore he's harming our cause by deciding to deride his allies, as you have just done.

And I would not want to take that away. But the fact of matter is that Hillary is an utterly corrupt elite and there is just no way around that fact. She is rotten to the core.

Again, this is, in my opinion, damaging to Sanders' cause. HE NEEDS CLINTON'S SUPPORTERS.

So he should continue what was a positive campaign, selling his ideas, which were good. If he wins, he needs Clinton supporters to vote with him. BOTH the populace AND the establishment. He NEEDS the populace to pressure their establishment Democrats to go along with Sanders, if Sanders wins, in order to get any of these things enacted.

He, and you, are fucking fools if you think you gain anything by taking a fellow dem and trying to make them into an outsider.

You went all, "you love Hillary" on me, when I started this thread telling you I sent money to Bernie! What a foolish thing to do. I don't know why you would choose that. But it's what I'm wanting to say to Sanders.

Bernie - you can't go it alone. You KNOW that. It's why you ran as a Democrat and not an Independent. If you are trying to suddenly _be_ an independent, you will be throwing away the voice you earned by working with a coalition of Dems. And I will lose respect for you over that and be angry that the progressive ideals I wanted are being thrown away by you.

Its just too bad Elizabeth Warren did not want the job because she is both a good person and shares your values. It would have been very easy to vote for her.

Well, she's not running.

 

[Rhea]

This is just people who don't like Bernie's message and want to shut him up.

You read my OP and thought this?

 

[RavenSky]

No... you need to connect the dots.

No one has suggested Bernie should stop talking; but I agree with Rhea that Bernie has broken his promise and has gone negative. He needs to stop that.

My my.

So Bernie talking about real problems won't help Trump.

But he should stop doing it.

You're tired of hearing how corrupt our political system is. You don't care.

Let me see if I can type this slowly enough for you to comprehend...

No one has suggested that Bernie Sanders can't talk about whatever he wants. But he has broken his promise, and begun to run a negative campaign. That is very disappointing. Moreover, attacking the entire Dem party and the front-runner Dem candidate in the negative manner he is recently employing will NOT help further the incredibly positive campaign he started. It will, however, help get Trump elected, which helps no one.

 

[untermensche]

This is just people who don't like Bernie's message and want to shut him up.

You read my OP and thought this?

It was a statement made in context with other statements. Not any direct statement about your OP and your problems.