Two new types of 'Anti-rape' personal product.

[Bronzeage]

The second one isn't a bad idea but has obvious issues that will stop it from catching on.

No, it's awful. Because legally a woman can retract consent at any time during sex. It doesn't really matter that she gave consent earlier. That'll prove nothing in court. No, matter if you have a valid contract. It'll give the person false confident that all is cool.

The only way a man can be safe from being accused of rape is to not have sex.

I've been having sex on a regular basis for the past 47 years, and never once did I feel any threat of being accused of rape. At the risk of falling into the blame the victim trap, any man who does fear a rape accusation, and who has no intention of raping anyone, is doing something wrong.

Such a man would serve himself better by avoiding women completely.

 

[Toni]

You are the one who said that it was a brain dead idea to try to teach men not to rape.

Men are already taught that. People are also taught not to steal and not to assault others. And yet we still lock up valuables and we still have strategies for getting away from danger, because guess what. People assault, steal, and rape, despite what they've been taught.

Can you clarify for me whether you think it is a good idea for women to carry loaded guns with them in case a man tries to rape them? Personally, I think that's a terrible idea but you don't seem to think that men are teachable.

Toni, in what universe does positing 'you can't educate rapists out of rape' equate to 'women should carry loaded guns'?

Also, desist. DESIST WITH YOUR STRAWMEN.

Men are teachable. Rapists are not. Not all men are rapists and not all rapists are men.

I am not the person who said it was a brain dead idea to try to teach men not to rape. You are.

I've never said that all men are rapists nor have I ever suggested such a thing. Congratulations on bringing up the fact that not all rapists are men and that not all rape victims are women. Usually I am the one who brings that up. I understand how uncomfortable those facts make some men. I really do.

I'm not sure what your solution is. You don't seem to believe that education can change behavior or attitudes and that it is useless to try. Is your solution that women should just accept that they are going to be raped?

I have said several times that I am against violence. You are against education, it seems.

Most men are not rapists. I agree with that 100%.

But I don't agree about education/teaching. I'll start:

It would help if very nice men didn't post joke images of women being locked up in devices to protect themselves against rape. Maybe I'm wrong, but it does seem as though the images and many of the comments are intended to be witty--to be jokes.

It would also help if men didn't think that the best way for women to prevent being raped was to lock themselves up and to monitor their own behavior, rather than place any restrictions on men.

Empathy is something that can be taught and built upon. There isn't enough empathy in the world.

 

[ruby sparks]

It would help if very nice men didn't post joke images of women being locked up in devices to protect themselves against rape. Maybe I'm wrong, but it does seem as though the images and many of the comments are intended to be witty--to be jokes..

You're wrong about the images. I myself did make one whimsical comment about 'inside upstairs' which I am not going to apologise for because I'm Irish, and if you want to take humour away from an Irishman, you will have to prise it from his cold, dead hand. And that is both a profound philosophical position and a national ideology. I am not kidding much about that. I am prepared to run the risk of being arrested by the humour police.

Oh and by the way, I was also trying to be witty when I suggested that anti-rape pants for men would help solve the paternity fraud issue. There appears to me to be some sort of double-standard going on regarding acceptability of victim-blaming between the two wrongs. But that's from a previous thread and probably off-topic here.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

The second one isn't a bad idea but has obvious issues that will stop it from catching on.

No, it's awful. Because legally a woman can retract consent at any time during sex. It doesn't really matter that she gave consent earlier. That'll prove nothing in court. No, matter if you have a valid contract. It'll give the person false confident that all is cool.

The only way a man can be safe from being accused of rape is to not have sex.

No, not even then. Sometimes false rape claims emerge from consensual intercourse, but sometimes there was no intercourse to begin with.

My favorite thing in life is when a topic comes up, and then people want to talk about a rather small subset of said topic... again and again.

 

[ruby sparks]

I've been having sex on a regular basis for the past 47 years....

You lucky, lucky bastard.

Other than jealousy, I do tend to agree with what you said.

 

[Toni]

It would help if very nice men didn't post joke images of women being locked up in devices to protect themselves against rape. Maybe I'm wrong, but it does seem as though the images and many of the comments are intended to be witty--to be jokes..

You're wrong about the images. I myself did make one whimsical comment about 'inside upstairs' which I am not going to apologise for because I'm Irish, and if you want to take humour away from an Irishman, you will have to prise it from his cold, dead hand. And that is both a profound philosophical position and a national ideology. I am not kidding much about that. I am prepared to run the risk of being arrested by the humour police.

Oh and by the way, I was also trying to be witty when I suggested that anti-rape pants for men would help solve the paternity fraud issue. There appears to me to be some sort of double-standard going on regarding acceptability of victim-blaming between the two wrongs. But that's from a previous thread and probably off-topic here.

I really did not intend anything personal against you or anyone else. My comments were intended to be general, not specific. I am sure that you are a very nice person. I am sure that everybody posting in this thread is a very nice person. I understand that sometimes people make jokes that are in some small way, the object of the joke, even if it isn’t intended that way. I grew up with that kind of humor, actually. And worse. Some people I happen to love and respect very much were very fond of making jokes about, say, black people. Not using the term black or African American. Or people. I’m in no way suggesting that the jokes and humor in this thread rose even close to the ‘jokes’ I used to hear. Truly I am not and I apologize for offending you.

But I would like to suggest that perhaps women might not find this sort of humor to be all that funny, especially not if they’ve had to deal with sexual assault. Or any rape victims. It’s hard to find that sort of thing funny a lot of the time.

 

[Toni]

No, not even then. Sometimes false rape claims emerge from consensual intercourse, but sometimes there was no intercourse to begin with.

My favorite thing in life is when a topic comes up, and then people want to talk about a rather small subset of said topic... again and again.

Isn’t it better that a thousand women be raped than one man falsely accused? To paraphrase.

False accusations can be very upsetting and damaging.

 

[Bronzeage]

I've been having sex on a regular basis for the past 47 years....

You lucky, lucky bastard.

Other than jealousy, I do tend to agree with what you said.

Without sounding facetious, it's not a matter of luck. A satisfactory sex life is something that requires maintenance and care, but that's a topic for a different thread.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

You are the one who said that it was a brain dead idea to try to teach men not to rape.

Men are already taught that.

Are they?
When are they taught the definition of rape?
When are thhey taught how to recognize consent?
When are they taught that girls who sleep with one guy are not open season for the others?
When are they taught that what women wear is never “Asking for it”?
When are they taught that rape kits will always be tested?
When are the cops taught to not demean and antagonize the rape victims?
When are men taught that gaining confidence over a child or student or niece or nephew or subordinate will not be hushed up by parishioners or HR departments or parents or aunts because being raped is more embarassing that holding the man accountable -so he certaibly doesn’t learn that not raping is the issue, he learns that telling is the issue.
When are people taught that women who dance sexy or are drunk or wear short skirts or go to frat parties are not exempt from the right to consent?

Are men REALLY taught to not rape?

Yes, they are. Repeatedly. The vast majority of men know all of what you list above. Those who rape mostly don't care or seek to make up excuses. You don't live in a society where the social norm is that rape is cool. Or did you just move to the middle east or something?

 

[Toni]

Are they?
When are they taught the definition of rape?
When are thhey taught how to recognize consent?
When are they taught that girls who sleep with one guy are not open season for the others?
When are they taught that what women wear is never “Asking for it”?
When are they taught that rape kits will always be tested?
When are the cops taught to not demean and antagonize the rape victims?
When are men taught that gaining confidence over a child or student or niece or nephew or subordinate will not be hushed up by parishioners or HR departments or parents or aunts because being raped is more embarassing that holding the man accountable -so he certaibly doesn’t learn that not raping is the issue, he learns that telling is the issue.
When are people taught that women who dance sexy or are drunk or wear short skirts or go to frat parties are not exempt from the right to consent?

Are men REALLY taught to not rape?

Yes, they are. Repeatedly. The vast majority of men know all of what you list above. Those who rape mostly don't care or seek to make up excuses. You don't live in a society where the social norm is that rape is cool. Or did you just move to the middle east or something?

I dunno. Seems to be the case that most rapists know their victims. And most of the time, their excuse is some version of 'she really wanted it.' As in: of course she may have only been 15 but she really did want to do the entire football team at that party. Or some girls just have to get so drunk they almost pass out before they can admit that they want sex.

But maybe you're talking about the 'real rape' cases where it is a stranger, usually black, who drags some poor little white girl into a dark alley.

Or maybe you believe that if a woman gives up struggling, if she gives in before dying or passing out, that she's consented, and it's not really rape.

I have no idea, really. I'm not a mind reader.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

But I would like to suggest that perhaps women might not find this sort of humor to be all that funny, especially not if they’ve had to deal with sexual assault. Or any rape victims. It’s hard to find that sort of thing funny a lot of the time.

I don't think the images in the OP were designed as jokes. I see no reason to presume that they were designed by people who are out to mock rape, even remotely. I see no reason to presume that these are all designed by men either. They could be what they present themselves to be, good faith efforts by people to protect against rape. What makes them funny, and they are funny, is how ridiculous and ineffective they look. People aren't laughing at rape when they see these devices. They are laughing at these devices. Its like people wearing tin foil to prevent themselves from getting shot. That doesn't trivialize or make a mockery of murder.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I dunno. Seems to be the case that most rapists know their victims. And most of the time, their excuse is some version of 'she really wanted it.' As in: of course she may have only been 15 but she really did want to do the entire football team at that party. Or some girls just have to get so drunk they almost pass out before they can admit that they want sex.

What do you expect them to say? Rape is about consent. Of course they will claim they had consent, even when they clearly did not. These are scumbag rapists. They will lie. Do you expect them to just go "Ya, lock me up please"?

But maybe you're talking about the 'real rape' cases where it is a stranger, usually black, who drags some poor little white girl into a dark alley.

Why are you calling those "real rape"? Are you pushing some kind of racist agenda here?

Or maybe you believe that if a woman gives up struggling, if she gives in before dying or passing out, that she's consented, and it's not really rape.

Do you think anyone here actually believes this? Do you believe this? Why would you guess at this?

 

[Toni]

What do you expect them to say? Rape is about consent. Of course they will claim they had consent, even when they clearly did not. These are scumbag rapists. They will lie. Do you expect them to just go "Ya, lock me up please"?

You've probably read as many threads as I have about rape on this forum. You know full well that the accused doesn't have to do a lot of work to convince people that she was a willing partner. Heck, I've posted links to an article about a man who videoed him binding his wife to a chair with duct tape and raping her while she screamed struggled and he got off on rape charges by claiming that she was into that sort of thing. Lots of posters on this forum (or previous version) claimed of course it wasn't rape: he claimed they were into BDSM. And then I brought over links where he actually murdered his next wife. Same MO. Same defense. It did perhaps bring a little...clarity to the first situation, although fat lot of good that did either woman.

So, we both know very well that she wanted it isn't just the rapists' claim but also the claim of the defense attorneys, lots of times the police who refuse to press charges or even really investigate and of course the jury. And the common man, of course. Joe Public.

Why are you calling those "real rape"? Are you pushing some kind of racist agenda here?

Not at all. Just trying to clarify what some people are willing to call rape.

Or maybe you believe that if a woman gives up struggling, if she gives in before dying or passing out, that she's consented, and it's not really rape.

Do you think anyone here actually believes this? Do you believe this? Why would you guess at this?

I'm not a mind reader. I don't know what people here think. I've seen some people defend a lot of horrific behavior, though. And that remark about it not really being rape if she quits struggling before passing out or dying? I've heard that before in real life. Not from a poster here. He wasn't an original thinker or anything like that so I'm sure he's not the only one who believes that sort of thing.

 

[ruby sparks]

It would help if very nice men didn't post joke images of women being locked up in devices to protect themselves against rape. Maybe I'm wrong, but it does seem as though the images and many of the comments are intended to be witty--to be jokes..

You're wrong about the images. I myself did make one whimsical comment about 'inside upstairs' which I am not going to apologise for because I'm Irish, and if you want to take humour away from an Irishman, you will have to prise it from his cold, dead hand. And that is both a profound philosophical position and a national ideology. I am not kidding much about that. I am prepared to run the risk of being arrested by the humour police.

Oh and by the way, I was also trying to be witty when I suggested that anti-rape pants for men would help solve the paternity fraud issue. There appears to me to be some sort of double-standard going on regarding acceptability of victim-blaming between the two wrongs. But that's from a previous thread and probably off-topic here.

I really did not intend anything personal against you or anyone else. My comments were intended to be general, not specific. I am sure that you are a very nice person. I am sure that everybody posting in this thread is a very nice person. I understand that sometimes people make jokes that are in some small way, the object of the joke, even if it isn’t intended that way. I grew up with that kind of humor, actually. And worse. Some people I happen to love and respect very much were very fond of making jokes about, say, black people. Not using the term black or African American. Or people. I’m in no way suggesting that the jokes and humor in this thread rose even close to the ‘jokes’ I used to hear. Truly I am not and I apologize for offending you.

But I would like to suggest that perhaps women might not find this sort of humor to be all that funny, especially not if they’ve had to deal with sexual assault. Or any rape victims. It’s hard to find that sort of thing funny a lot of the time.

No probs.

I do understand that women might not find that sort of humour to be all that funny, especially if they've had to deal with sexual assault. On the other hand, I'm not for an embargo either. There's a medium, and it depends on a lot of things, such as how well one knows a person in the round, and how the humour is expressed. Someone I don't know very well and who doesn't know me, reading bare words on a screen, could easily make something of it that wasn't intended. And then of course there are the times why I do intend something at least slightly pointed.

 

[ruby sparks]

Without sounding facetious, it's not a matter of luck. A satisfactory sex life is something that requires maintenance and care, but that's a topic for a different thread.

You would say that, but then you probably don't have only one eye in the middle of your forehead and one leg 6 inches shorter than the other (I hope). Some of us have it tough.

But seriously (I'm in a funny mood today, it's Friday and I'm downing tools, no pun intended) it probably wouldn't be entirely off topic for you to talk about 'how to go about it right' (the first time) in this thread. Imo. I personally would be interested. We could start with...the James Bond/Pussy Galore movie clip from earlier. Is your approach anything like that?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

You've probably read as many threads as I have about rape on this forum. You know full well that the accused doesn't have to do a lot of work to convince people that she was a willing partner.

I also know that it doesn't take much here to get people concluding rape merely on an accusation of it.

Heck, I've posted links to an article about a man who videoed him binding his wife to a chair with duct tape and raping her while she screamed struggled and he got off on rape charges by claiming that she was into that sort of thing. Lots of posters on this forum (or previous version) claimed of course it wasn't rape: he claimed they were into BDSM.

On the face of it, that's rape. But if there is actually evidence they did this regularly and she was into BDSM, then that is definitely worth noting.

And then I brought over links where he actually murdered his next wife. Same MO. Same defense.

People here told you this guy's wife he murdered was into being murdered and wanted to die? Really? That's horrible if true.

So, we both know very well that she wanted it isn't just the rapists' claim but also the claim of the defense attorneys

That's their job. Do you expect them to say "Your Honour, my client pleads not guilty, but he actually raped her"?

lots of times the police who refuse to press charges or even really investigate

They shouldn't press charges without any investigation. They should investigate fully. And if they find evidence of the rape, they should charge him. If they find evidence of false allegation, they should charge her.

and of course the jury. And the common man, of course. Joe Public.

I think you've got this one backwards. Being accused of rape will ruin a man's career, true or false. The public view clearly goes with the allegation, and not against it.

Or maybe you believe that if a woman gives up struggling, if she gives in before dying or passing out, that she's consented, and it's not really rape.

Do you think anyone here actually believes this? Do you believe this? Why would you guess at this?

I'm not a mind reader. I don't know what people here think.

This is refreshing to read from you. I'm happy to see it. But again, why would you guess anyone here would have such a view? Its an odd and very specific thing to ask.

And that remark about it not really being rape if she quits struggling before passing out or dying? I've heard that before in real life. Not from a poster here. He wasn't an original thinker or anything like that so I'm sure he's not the only one who believes that sort of thing.

But why would you expect any poster here may have that view? It was a weird question to ask me. To answer it, no, and I find it a horrible position for anyone to hold. Such a person should probably be in prison. It is a view most certainly nowhere near the norm for people. It isn't even anywhere near the norm for rapists most likely.

 

[Toni]

But why would you expect any poster here may have that view? It was a weird question to ask me. To answer it, no, and I find it a horrible position for anyone to hold. Such a person should probably be in prison. It is a view most certainly nowhere near the norm for people. It isn't even anywhere near the norm for rapists most likely.

I think that all the images of devices that are purportedly for sale for women to wear to prevent rape is really weird as are so many comments in this thread.

I think it's weird and somewhat hostile (as perceived by women) for men to post such images and make a bunch of 'humorous' comments about the images and the subject. I understand that it is an uncomfortable subject. It's especially uncomfortable if you are a woman who has been the victim of sexual assault (and I dare say also if you are a male victim) or just if you've grown up female and are bombarded from puberty onwards of the many, many, many ways that it is your responsibility to prevent your own rape and how you are blamed if your precautions are deemed inadequate or ineffective.

Empathy: There's just not nearly enough of it.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

I think that all the images of devices that are purportedly for sale for women to wear to prevent rape is really weird

Beyond weird. Downright nutty, which is why people find them funny. And if you look closer, you'll find that the ones in the OP are actually meant to be serious, which only makes them funnier.

I think it's weird and somewhat hostile (as perceived by women) for men to post such images and make a bunch of 'humorous' comments about the images and the subject.

I"m pretty sure most of these images were created by women, not men. And I haven't seen anybody here joke or make light about rape itself. No, its these inventions and the idea that they could actually do anything to help prevent rape that is humorous.

I understand that it is an uncomfortable subject. It's especially uncomfortable if you are a woman who has been the victim of sexual assault (and I dare say also if you are a male victim) or just if you've grown up female and are bombarded from puberty onwards of the many, many, many ways that it is your responsibility to prevent your own rape and how you are blamed if your precautions are deemed inadequate or ineffective.

There is no reason to bring your personal issues into the thread. You could have ignored it. It wasn't posted as an attack at you or at anyone.

Now, look what you've done. You've made me go and defend Ruby Sparks of all people lol

 

[Toni]

Beyond weird. Downright nutty, which is why people find them funny. And if you look closer, you'll find that the ones in the OP are actually meant to be serious, which only makes them funnier.



I"m pretty sure most of these images were created by women, not men. And I haven't seen anybody here joke or make light about rape itself. No, its these inventions and the idea that they could actually do anything to help prevent rape that is humorous.

I understand that it is an uncomfortable subject. It's especially uncomfortable if you are a woman who has been the victim of sexual assault (and I dare say also if you are a male victim) or just if you've grown up female and are bombarded from puberty onwards of the many, many, many ways that it is your responsibility to prevent your own rape and how you are blamed if your precautions are deemed inadequate or ineffective.

There is no reason to bring your personal issues into the thread. You could have ignored it. It wasn't posted as an attack at you or at anyone.

Now, look what you've done. You've made me go and defend Ruby Sparks of all people lol

WTF?????

But thanks for proving that there isn't enough empathy in this world. Or this forum. Or this thread.

 

[ruby sparks]

I think at least two, possibly more, of the products were designed by women who had themselves experienced sexual assault. And in one case, they were made by an artist who was attempting to explore issues around how it feels for women to have experienced such things, based on what they told the artist. Even if the products are somewhat dubious for certain understandable reasons, which generally seems to be the wider reaction to them, I really don't think there is any good reason to say they have either been made, or images of them posted here, in order to be hostile to women.