Two new types of 'Anti-rape' personal product.

[Jolly_Penguin]

WTF?????

WTF indeed. You speak of empathy as you lash out at others. Well done.

But thanks for proving that there isn't enough empathy in this world. Or this forum. Or this thread.

It starts from within yourself Toni. Be the change you seek.

 

[Bronzeage]

Without sounding facetious, it's not a matter of luck. A satisfactory sex life is something that requires maintenance and care, but that's a topic for a different thread.

You would say that, but then you probably don't have only one eye in the middle of your forehead and one leg 6 inches shorter than the other (I hope). Some of us have it tough.

But seriously (I'm in a funny mood today, it's Friday and I'm downing tools, no pun intended) it probably wouldn't be entirely off topic for you to talk about 'how to go about it right' (the first time) in this thread. Imo. I personally would be interested. We could start with...the James Bond/Pussy Galore movie clip from earlier. Is your approach anything like that?

James Bond is not much help in this matter, except that one can be certain the toilet and shower in James Bond's bachelor pad are always clean.

In the business world, there is a truism, which goes something like, "It's much easier to keep an old customer, than to get a new customer."

It's really not that complicated. If we were considering anything else but sex, it wouldn't be a mystery. Very few people want to stop doing something they like doing. So, there's our first ingredient. In order to keep a good sex life, one must have a good sex life. This means a partner who does not mind the sight of you naked, at a minimum.

The main reason people stop doing pleasant things is they don't have time. Other things crowd out fun things. On top of that, the necessary things consume energy as well as time. It builds slowly, but there's less concern about time for sex, because there's not enough energy for it. Nobody wants to go back to the restaurant where the food is bad and the portions are small.

Most women in a live in relationship take responsibility for managing the household. It's just a part of human culture. It's a lot of work and if she has a job outside the home, her time committed to commuting, workwork, and house work could be 12 hours a day. If there are children in the home, this will be about 14 hours. That's seven days a week.

We're talking about a work week that's scraping 100 hours. Take any man and give him any job that requires 100 hours of his time. When he finally gets home, all he wants is a shower, something to eat, and a quiet place to sleep. Sex is the last thing he's thinking about. That seems obvious, so why would it be different for a woman?

There you have it. If a man wants to maintain a satisfactory sex life over time, first have a satisfactory sex life, and then don't let her work herself into celibacy, taking care of his life. Pro tip: Taking out the trash and mowing the yard do not count.

Now, if you want to know how to get a woman and a satisfactory sex life in the first place, I remain a river to my people, but that really is a separate thread.

 

[ruby sparks]

James Bond is not much help in this matter, except that one can be certain the toilet and shower in James Bond's bachelor pad are always clean.

In the business world, there is a truism, which goes something like, "It's much easier to keep an old customer, than to get a new customer."

It's really not that complicated. If we were considering anything else but sex, it wouldn't be a mystery. Very few people want to stop doing something they like doing. So, there's our first ingredient. In order to keep a good sex life, one must have a good sex life. This means a partner who does not mind the sight of you naked, at a minimum.

The main reason people stop doing pleasant things is they don't have time. Other things crowd out fun things. On top of that, the necessary things consume energy as well as time. It builds slowly, but there's less concern about time for sex, because there's not enough energy for it. Nobody wants to go back to the restaurant where the food is bad and the portions are small.

Most women in a live in relationship take responsibility for managing the household. It's just a part of human culture. It's a lot of work and if she has a job outside the home, her time committed to commuting, workwork, and house work could be 12 hours a day. If there are children in the home, this will be about 14 hours. That's seven days a week.

We're talking about a work week that's scraping 100 hours. Take any man and give him any job that requires 100 hours of his time. When he finally gets home, all he wants is a shower, something to eat, and a quiet place to sleep. Sex is the last thing he's thinking about. That seems obvious, so why would it be different for a woman?

There you have it. If a man wants to maintain a satisfactory sex life over time, first have a satisfactory sex life, and then don't let her work herself into celibacy, taking care of his life. Pro tip: Taking out the trash and mowing the yard do not count.

Now, if you want to know how to get a woman and a satisfactory sex life in the first place, I remain a river to my people, but that really is a separate thread.

Thumbs up (can't find the smiley/icon).

I had to google 'a river to my people' but I got it.

I agree with what you say.

However....minor quibble.....it now appears you were talking about regular sex for 47 years with the same woman (or a small number of women) and that you are referring to how to keep a good sex life going in a long term relationship, rather than instigating a first encounter (which is arguably what the OP products are more about, the consent apps for instance). And there was me thinking of you as some kind of awesome Lothario. Phew. I don't have to be so envious. Or do I?

None of that is to criticise anything you said. It's all good, sensible stuff.

 

[Bronzeage]

James Bond is not much help in this matter, except that one can be certain the toilet and shower in James Bond's bachelor pad are always clean.

In the business world, there is a truism, which goes something like, "It's much easier to keep an old customer, than to get a new customer."

It's really not that complicated. If we were considering anything else but sex, it wouldn't be a mystery. Very few people want to stop doing something they like doing. So, there's our first ingredient. In order to keep a good sex life, one must have a good sex life. This means a partner who does not mind the sight of you naked, at a minimum.

The main reason people stop doing pleasant things is they don't have time. Other things crowd out fun things. On top of that, the necessary things consume energy as well as time. It builds slowly, but there's less concern about time for sex, because there's not enough energy for it. Nobody wants to go back to the restaurant where the food is bad and the portions are small.

Most women in a live in relationship take responsibility for managing the household. It's just a part of human culture. It's a lot of work and if she has a job outside the home, her time committed to commuting, workwork, and house work could be 12 hours a day. If there are children in the home, this will be about 14 hours. That's seven days a week.

We're talking about a work week that's scraping 100 hours. Take any man and give him any job that requires 100 hours of his time. When he finally gets home, all he wants is a shower, something to eat, and a quiet place to sleep. Sex is the last thing he's thinking about. That seems obvious, so why would it be different for a woman?

There you have it. If a man wants to maintain a satisfactory sex life over time, first have a satisfactory sex life, and then don't let her work herself into celibacy, taking care of his life. Pro tip: Taking out the trash and mowing the yard do not count.

Now, if you want to know how to get a woman and a satisfactory sex life in the first place, I remain a river to my people, but that really is a separate thread.

Thumbs up (can't find the smiley/icon).

I had to google 'a river to my people' but I got it.

I agree with what you say.

However....minor quibble.....it now appears you were talking about regular sex for 47 years with the same woman (or a small number of women) and that you are referring to how to keep a good sex life going in a long term relationship, rather than instigating a first encounter (which is arguably what the OP products are more about, the consent apps for instance). And there was me thinking of you as some kind of awesome Lothario. Phew. I don't have to be so envious. Or do I?

None of that is to criticise anything you said. It's all good, sensible stuff.

Nobody ever went wrong envying me. Anyone can find a sex partner for a casual encounter. All they have to do is lower their standards. It's no more work than not caring. All Lotharios aside, as far as I can see, a man who has had more sex partners than he's had haircuts is actually a guy who can't get a second date.


As for instigating a first encounter at prevailing standards, as I said, a topic for a separate thread, but my comment about James Bond's bathroom is a clue.

 

[ruby sparks]

Anyone can find a sex partner for a casual encounter. All they have to do is lower their standards.

Indeed. Though we could redefine the problem as finding sex with someone you actually do fancy. And....I think it's fair to say that some men are going to struggle to find someone even if they go way low. Not so women, generally-speaking. For what I hope are obvious reasons.

All Lotharios aside, as far as I can see, a man who has had more sex partners than he's had haircuts is actually a guy who can't get a second date.

Ha. Yes. I once saw a great short movie. Two guys lived next door to each other in the same apartment block. One guy, when he gets home 'every night' with his homely wife, sees the other guy arrive home boisterously with a different hot chick every night, and is chagrined. In the second part of the short movie, we see things from the second guy's mind, and he is jealous of the other guy. Great insight, about humans even, in general (grass always seems greener etc) eh?

Another one I heard is that it is far more rewarding to spend 20 years with the same woman (it was a man who said it) in even a bad marriage, than to be with a thousand different women briefly. I liked that one.

..... my comment about James Bond's bathroom is a clue.

Yes, I spotted it.




One question, going back to your relationship advice. When you say that taking the trash out and mowing the lawn do not count, do you really mean that they are not enough, not that they don't assist*? If so, I totally agree. Doing a token amount is not enough. It took me many years to realise that, including, to my shame, when the kids were little, but eventually I got it, belatedly.


* And of course Naomi Wolf once said that the sexiest thing a man can do is the dishes.

 

[Bronzeage]

One question, going back to your relationship advice. When you say that taking the trash out and mowing the lawn do not count, do you really mean that they are not enough, not that they don't assist*? If so, I totally agree. Doing a token amount is not enough. It took me many years to realise that, including, to my shame, when the kids were little, but eventually I got it, belatedly.

One of the basic cultural differences in men and women is the way men work in groups. When men cooperate, duplication of effort is discouraged, so they work as a team, but but with each man working where his strength is. What happens at home is the man is happy to let the woman work to her strengths, which means she does about 90% of the house work.

When a man gets home, he thinks his day is finished, because his job is walled off from his home life. The woman cannot see it that way.

 

[ruby sparks]

One question, going back to your relationship advice. When you say that taking the trash out and mowing the lawn do not count, do you really mean that they are not enough, not that they don't assist*? If so, I totally agree. Doing a token amount is not enough. It took me many years to realise that, including, to my shame, when the kids were little, but eventually I got it, belatedly.

One of the basic cultural differences in men and women is the way men work in groups. When men cooperate, duplication of effort is discouraged, so they work as a team, but but with each man working where his strength is. What happens at home is the man is happy to let the woman work to her strengths, which means she does about 90% of the house work.

When a man gets home, he thinks his day is finished, because his job is walled off from his home life. The woman cannot see it that way.

Thanks.

Definitely a topic for another thread, as you say. So perhaps I should not pursue it any further here.

Getting back to your original comment, that if a man is worried that he might be accused of rape, on a date with a new potential partner, he's doing something wrong (in the wrong way I mean), I think there's some truth in that, up to a point. I wouldn't want to generalise completely, since there are of course false accusations in a small number of cases. But yeah. Personally, I never worried about it. Perhaps I should have? As I said before, it mostly involved me mind-reading and interpreting body language and stuff like that. Moans. And the like. Reciprocated kissing was a good sign early on. Mouths are better at expressing reciprocation than some other orifices (allowing for arousal fluids). Though hips can say a lot, especially if thrusting. With me, unless there was what I considered sufficient signals and sufficient reciprocation, I stopped. Not interested. Don't get this thing about no meaning yes. I was probably just not suffering from an excess of self-confidence, in some ways. I'd be like, not pushy. It'd be, well, I tried. I definitely communicated my desire. But if you're not actually all that up for it, neither am I. And that's ok.

I remember once, in the USA as it happens, when I was a teenager and almost a novice (having lost my virginity just a month earlier at home) I had arrived at what I might call the point of almost no return. Mutual genital contact. Houston the probe is docking with the mothership. In a tent. After having gotten her consensually a bit drunk and everything. And she merely asked me was I sure I wanted to. So I didn't. Am I a schmuck or what. I'm so not James Bond. And that wasn't the only time something akin to that happened. If I had a pound (dollar to you) for every time.....

Fuck I'm doing a lot of personal anecdotes in this thread. Lol. It's becoming confessional. Therapeutic even. I hope nobody minds.

 

[Toni]

WTF?????

WTF indeed. You speak of empathy as you lash out at others. Well done.

But thanks for proving that there isn't enough empathy in this world. Or this forum. Or this thread.

It starts from within yourself Toni. Be the change you seek.

You have a very odd definition of lashing out and attack. Not surprising, though.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

You have a very odd definition of lashing out and attack. Not surprising, though.

But thanks for proving that there isn't enough empathy in this world. Or this forum. Or this thread.

We can only hope that you find the empathy within yourself that you fail to recognize in others.

 

[Metaphor]

I am not the person who said it was a brain dead idea to try to teach men not to rape. You are.

Of course it is brain dead. It's like saying 'we should teach people not to murder'. Yeah we should which is why society already does that and has been doing it for centuries.

I'm not sure what your solution is. You don't seem to believe that education can change behavior or attitudes and that it is useless to try. Is your solution that women should just accept that they are going to be raped?

If the US has a 'rape problem' then it has a murder problem. Do you advocate teaching people not to murder, or does that suggestion seem a bit strange?

If anything, 'teach men not to rape' is the idea that shows you've given up. Men were never taught to rape so they can't be untaught.

I have said several times that I am against violence. You are against education, it seems.

I'm against redefining consent to a standard that would make most acts of intercourse 'rape'.

It would help if very nice men didn't post joke images of women being locked up in devices to protect themselves against rape. Maybe I'm wrong, but it does seem as though the images and many of the comments are intended to be witty--to be jokes.

It would also help if men didn't think that the best way for women to prevent being raped was to lock themselves up and to monitor their own behavior, rather than place any restrictions on men.

Empathy is something that can be taught and built upon. There isn't enough empathy in the world.

The best way to prevent rape is an empirical question. I'm sure my nieces and nephews have been taught not to go off with strangers, even though it would be nice if we could teach strangers not to molest children.

 

[Metaphor]

I dunno. Seems to be the case that most rapists know their victims. And most of the time, their excuse is some version of 'she really wanted it.' As in: of course she may have only been 15 but she really did want to do the entire football team at that party. Or some girls just have to get so drunk they almost pass out before they can admit that they want sex.

The fact that rapists tell themselves and the world they actually got consent is a sign that people, even rapists, know that rape is wrong. They have to turn their action into not-rape to justify it, even though they know it's rape and they know it's wrong.

Toni, do you know how to not rape people? Did society specifically teach you not to rape? How is it, since you believe society doesn't already do that, that you've been able to go around not raping people your entire life?

 

[Toni]

I dunno. Seems to be the case that most rapists know their victims. And most of the time, their excuse is some version of 'she really wanted it.' As in: of course she may have only been 15 but she really did want to do the entire football team at that party. Or some girls just have to get so drunk they almost pass out before they can admit that they want sex.

The fact that rapists tell themselves and the world they actually got consent is a sign that people, even rapists, know that rape is wrong. They have to turn their action into not-rape to justify it, even though they know it's rape and they know it's wrong.

Toni, do you know how to not rape people? Did society specifically teach you not to rape? How is it, since you believe society doesn't already do that, that you've been able to go around not raping people your entire life?

Society also tells boys and men (and women and girls and everybody in between) that no doesn't mean know if she's not a virgin or if she's had too much to drink or if you've done it before. It also tells boys and men and women and girls and everybody in between) that if she didn't want it, she wouldn't have been out that late or alone, would have better locks on her door, wouldn't have had so much (or anything) to drink, wouldn't have worn that outfit, would have/wouldn't have any number of things--anything to put the fault on the victim. It's done to men, as well. Shit, the stuff some people said about those poor boys who were abused at Penn State is enough to make someone want to vomit or blow up a building.

Those are all things that we know are factually incorrect: anyone has the right to say no to any act of intimacy or sex at any point when they no longer want whatever is happening to continue happening. No one deserves to be assaulted or raped. No one. No one does anything to provoke the assault or rape. Everybody knows that.

But there is still a hard, deep vein that runs through society--and cannot be laid at the feet of Christianity because it exists in every culture around the world that women are dirty, that women lie, that women cannot be trusted, that women use their sex and their power to manipulate and control men, that women (except maybe your mother and sister) are really whores and don't deserve to be trusted. At least some level of that exists in all women. Eve took a bite of the apple and whatever other myths there are around the world. They aren't all Judeo/Christian/Islamic based. It's not religion.

It's poor impulse control and a whole lot of garbage enabling it and excusing it. And a lot of rage. And entitlement.

Women are told from a young age all the things they cannot do or ELSE and if they step out of bounds, they deserve what they get.

Boys are told atta boy and she wants it and she wants you and it's not fair if she changes her mind or doesn't want you and she deserves it.

Of course not all girls nor all boys grow up with those messages, but those messages are out there everywhere and all of us could do a lot more to shut it down.

So, what message, exactly, are women supposed to take from forums where there are so many threads about rape that almost always are some form of it wasn't really rape and she's just a slut and probably mentally ill? When images of garments supposedly designed to stop rapes are posted, some very much designed as erotica, how are women supposed to feel about that? And then: it's just a joke.

It's a joke the same way that hanging a noose from a tree on the town square or university campus is a joke. It's a joke as much as blackface is a joke. Or burning crosses on lawns.

 

[Toni]

Of course it is brain dead. It's like saying 'we should teach people not to murder'. Yeah we should which is why society already does that and has been doing it for centuries.



If the US has a 'rape problem' then it has a murder problem. Do you advocate teaching people not to murder, or does that suggestion seem a bit strange?

If anything, 'teach men not to rape' is the idea that shows you've given up. Men were never taught to rape so they can't be untaught.

I have said several times that I am against violence. You are against education, it seems.

I'm against redefining consent to a standard that would make most acts of intercourse 'rape'.

It would help if very nice men didn't post joke images of women being locked up in devices to protect themselves against rape. Maybe I'm wrong, but it does seem as though the images and many of the comments are intended to be witty--to be jokes.

It would also help if men didn't think that the best way for women to prevent being raped was to lock themselves up and to monitor their own behavior, rather than place any restrictions on men.

Empathy is something that can be taught and built upon. There isn't enough empathy in the world.

The best way to prevent rape is an empirical question. I'm sure my nieces and nephews have been taught not to go off with strangers, even though it would be nice if we could teach strangers not to molest children.

No one says that murder victims really wanted it, that it wasn't murder, that it was really just assisted suicide.

Otherwise, sure.

BTW, your nieces and nephews are much more likely to be raped or molested by someone they know and trust quite well. Unfortunately.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Toni, the sad irony is that your over the top posts serve to encourage rather than discourage the behaviour and attitudes that you say that you oppose.

There is so much misogyny and misandry packed into your last two posts that I wouldn't even know where to begin on addressing them.

None of it was included in anything Metaphor or anyone else here actually wrote. How do you expect people to respond?

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Do any of these inventions actually sell? Is there something a little unethical about selling them if they are obviously not going to be effective or practical?

It reminds me of selling or "bomb shelters" to home owners during the cold war or the hilarious and terrifying "duck and cover" songs (as if hiding under a desk will save you from a nuke).

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The second one isn't a bad idea but has obvious issues that will stop it from catching on.

No, it's awful. Because legally a woman can retract consent at any time during sex. It doesn't really matter that she gave consent earlier. That'll prove nothing in court. No, matter if you have a valid contract. It'll give the person false confident that all is cool.

The only way a man can be safe from being accused of rape is to not have sex.

It might help against the too-drunk-to-consent issue.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The second one isn't a bad idea but has obvious issues that will stop it from catching on.

No, it's awful. Because legally a woman can retract consent at any time during sex. It doesn't really matter that she gave consent earlier. That'll prove nothing in court. No, matter if you have a valid contract. It'll give the person false confident that all is cool.

The only way a man can be safe from being accused of rape is to not have sex.

I've been having sex on a regular basis for the past 47 years, and never once did I feel any threat of being accused of rape. At the risk of falling into the blame the victim trap, any man who does fear a rape accusation, and who has no intention of raping anyone, is doing something wrong.

Such a man would serve himself better by avoiding women completely.

Anyone who has sex with someone whose personality they do not know very well runs this risk. Proper behavior is no defense against a false accusation.

 

[Toni]

I've been having sex on a regular basis for the past 47 years, and never once did I feel any threat of being accused of rape. At the risk of falling into the blame the victim trap, any man who does fear a rape accusation, and who has no intention of raping anyone, is doing something wrong.

Such a man would serve himself better by avoiding women completely.

Anyone who has sex with someone whose personality they do not know very well runs this risk. Proper behavior is no defense against a false accusation.

Yes, there are crazy people out there. One could be accused of anything at any time by anybody crazy enough to have made up some story in their head about something they imagine that you did. It is not always easy or possible to tell who is crazy. But getting to know someone before you sleep with them is not a bad idea for many reasons, including this one.

 

[Metaphor]

No one says that murder victims really wanted it, that it wasn't murder, that it was really just assisted suicide.

Nobody says it because the number of acts where one person is killed by another with mutual consent, is vanishingly tiny.

But I'd say about 500 million - 1 billion acts of mutually consenting sexual intercourse happen every day. Sexual intercourse between mutually consenting adults is not a crime (barring obvious exceptions like in the Islamic world). You need evidence to prove a crime. Conflicting witness testimony is usually insufficient.

 

[Metaphor]

Society also tells boys and men (and women and girls and everybody in between) that no doesn't mean know if she's not a virgin

I'm going to say something very harsh here Toni.

What the fuck kind of society did you grow up in?

I have not ever heard that no does not mean no if the person saying no isn't a virgin. I've not heard it from men or women or older people or younger people or anybody, ever.

Women are told from a young age all the things they cannot do or ELSE and if they step out of bounds, they deserve what they get.

Boys are told atta boy and she wants it and she wants you and it's not fair if she changes her mind or doesn't want you and she deserves it.

Who told boys this? In what universe? Is it the universe that feminists have constructed for themselves, where they imagine they know what heterosexual men talk about in private?