UK Labour party can't say what a woman is.

[Jarhyn]

Mostly because it doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter to you.

Believe it or not, what matters to you isn't what the rest of the world revolves around.
Tom

Can you find a principled justification for it "mattering" outside of: discussions in private with a doctor; discussions with a partner in full consent to have the discussion?

I'll be waiting.

The law has no business defining these things except to NOT define them explicitly IN ANY WAY and just tell people "don't discriminate on this basis".

 

[Metaphor]

The law has no business defining these things except to NOT define them explicitly IN ANY WAY and just tell people "don't discriminate on this basis".

That is insanity.

If the law is going to order you to refrain from doing something, the law better fucking tell you what that something is.

 

[Emily Lake]

So you instead you get to impose your ideology on others.

What ideology is involved in acknowledging that humans have two sex classes, as do all mammals?

 

[Emily Lake]

XX chromosomes.

Nope.

I agree with your nope, although it's a fairly rare occurrence.

Sex isn't actually defined base don chromosomes, it's defined by the gametes around which your anatomy is organized. That definition is the one used by biologist, as it encompasses all species that sexually reproduce. It even includes those handfuls of species that actually can change sex - when they do change sex, their anatomical organization shifts to support the production of the other gamete type.

People with the rare DSD of CAIS are considered female, as their anatomy is arranged around the production of ova, even though they cannot produce ova.

 

[Emily Lake]

There were two sex designations in the English language before the addition of the word 'intersex' to describe individuals who have various sexual traits that don't fit in the previous categories. So right now there are three recognized 'sexes' in the English speaking diaspora, and there may be more in the future.

If you think you can accurately assign intersex individuals into the 'male' and 'female' sex designations, go ahead and start with Ms. Haynes and her XY karyotype and functional uterus.

There are only two sexes. Sexes are defined based on the type of gamete that one's anatomy is arranged around. "Intersex" is a misnomer, one that is rapidly being evicted by people who actually have those conditions.

Haynes' anatomy was NEVER arranged around the production of sperm. She never had a penis or scrotum or a prostate. She had a small uterus, although her fallopian tubes never formed and she didn't have ovarian tissue. She clearly had a vaginal canal and a vulva. Any biologist worth their salt would consider Haynes to be a female, despite her genetic karyotype.

Intersex is a game played by people pushing the ideology that a person's feeling inside their head overrides material reality. This game of appropriating someone else's very real and deleterious medical condition to score political points is gross and offensive. I know several people with DSDs, and they very strongly object to the trans lobby exploiting their suffering. Please stop doing it.

 

[Trausti]

all species that sexually reproduce.

Mammalian sexual reproduction is binary. So odd some deny that.

 

[Emily Lake]

Based on the OP, I'm confident it was far more "won't" than "can't". And a perfectly valid reason was given, "I don't want what we're here to do derailed". The term used was "down that rabbit hole". People familiar with idiomatic English understood that term.

Here's the thing. Nobody can define woman with mathematical precision. Not even you. It's easy to define "woman" for the vast majority of purposes. But a trollish "journalist" could derail the job at hand by getting all pedantic. That looks like what was going on there.

For an example of the sort of rabbit hole that was being referred to just look at this thread. And the many others like it.

A woman is an adult female of the human species. A female is the sex class whose reproductive anatomy is arranged around the production of large sessile gametes. Perfectly accurate.

Now, let's talk about the larger context here. This was a comment to refuse to go down a "rabbit hole" on International Women's Day. Let's repeat that - International WOMEN'S Day.

And on International Women's day... The ACLU took the opportunity to dogmatically preach that Transwomen Are Women, and did not mention a single actual female through the entire day. Several organizations stressed how important it is to center and celebrate transwomen on IWD and did not grant a mention to females at all. Women got preached at to sit down and shut up and celebrate transwomen.

Women who organized marches and demonstrations for International Women's Day were physically and verbally attacked by transwomen and transgender rights activists. Women demonstrating to stop violence against women were attacked by males who identify as women, and called bigots and transphobes.

On the ONE day a year that is set aside to celebrate the accomplishments and feats of women... Women were assaulted, abused, harassed, told that we must celebrate males who identify as women instead of actual women, and politicians writing laws that grant primacy of gender identity over sex refused to even give a name to what the fuck the day is about.

 

[Emily Lake]

In my view, a gender bigot is someone with a narrow and rigid view about what constitutes a gender or a sex.

I have a biologically accurate view of what constitutes sex, and I think that sex is a rather important aspect of the lives of people who are discriminated against, oppressed, and disadvantaged as a result of their sex.

On the other hand, I recognize gender as being a social construct. It's a construct that confines people into narrow roles of acceptable behavior and comportment, and it has largely been used to limit the degree to which women can take part in society, economics, and politics. Gender should be an open field, stripped of meaning, and people should be allowed to dress and express themselves in whatever manner they like. Men who like dresses should not be considered less manly; women who like combat boots should not be considered less womanly. A person's expression and presentation should not be used to exclude them from their sex class by use of social coercion.

 

[Emily Lake]

The basis of your "precise" views misses the point: "woman" is not simply a biological identity but a social one as well.

What is the social identity of a woman? Can you describe what that social identity constitutes?

 

[laughing dog]

The basis of your "precise" views misses the point: "woman" is not simply a biological identity but a social one as well.

What is the social identity of a woman? Can you describe what that social identity constitutes?

Woman also refers to what has been traditionally considered feminine attributes. When many people see a person who either resembles and/or acts like an adult female, they may think and treat that person as a woman. They may never know that person is not a biological female, but nonetheless, their reality is that she is a woman.

If that person lives and refers to themself as a woman, and the people in that society think that person is a woman, then in that social setting, that person is a woman.

 

[Jarhyn]

The law has no business defining these things except to NOT define them explicitly IN ANY WAY and just tell people "don't discriminate on this basis".

That is insanity.

If the law is going to order you to refrain from doing something, the law better fucking tell you what that something is.

Well, you're the one who insists the words have clear, unambiguous meaning in all circumstances.

I would as soon that the law say nothing at all, except as we have seen people discriminate on the basis of "sex", so a law was made.

The issue is that it's a fuzzy, nebulous witch-shaped thing that people go hunting for.

It is discrimination on the basis of "sex" to deny someone a social identity on the basis of "sex", especially in a state sponsored workplace

Sex based differentiation, and thus discrimination can be identified easily with "differentiation on the basis of identifying by chromosomal or gonadal trend", without even having to identify how the trend categories are differentiated!

All the rest flows from there.

Steroidal discrimination, I have no problem with as regards prison populations and sports teams.

You, however, just seem like you very much just want to pretend you can't hold limes and that we need to buy your shitty bags.

 

[Emily Lake]

The basis of your "precise" views misses the point: "woman" is not simply a biological identity but a social one as well.

What is the social identity of a woman? Can you describe what that social identity constitutes?

Woman also refers to what has been traditionally considered feminine attributes. When many people see a person who either resembles and/or acts like an adult female, they may think and treat that person as a woman. They may never know that person is not a biological female, but nonetheless, their reality is that she is a woman.

If that person lives and refers to themself as a woman, and the people in that society think that person is a woman, then in that social setting, that person is a woman.

What are those traditional feminine attributes? How does an adult female act?

 

[JohnG]

So you instead you get to impose your ideology on others.

What ideology is involved in acknowledging that humans have two sex classes, as do all mammals?

If that’s how you want to look at it, fine. You can either respect someone’s pronouns or ask if you can look down the front of their pants to make sure you got it right.

Why is this a problem for people?

 

[Emily Lake]

So you instead you get to impose your ideology on others.

What ideology is involved in acknowledging that humans have two sex classes, as do all mammals?

If that’s how you want to look at it, fine. You can either respect someone’s pronouns or ask if you can look down the front of their pants to make sure you got it right.

Why is this a problem for people?

Do you genuinely think that parroting this false line that nobody can tell another person's sex is effective? From about the age of six on, humans are incredibly effective at accurately sexing adult humans. Women are more effective at it than men - it's in the interest of prey to be able to accurately identify their predators.

 

[Tigers!]

Based on the OP, I'm confident it was far more "won't" than "can't". And a perfectly valid reason was given, "I don't want what we're here to do derailed". The term used was "down that rabbit hole". People familiar with idiomatic English understood that term.

Here's the thing. Nobody can define woman with mathematical precision. Not even you. It's easy to define "woman" for the vast majority of purposes. But a trollish "journalist" could derail the job at hand by getting all pedantic. That looks like what was going on there.

For an example of the sort of rabbit hole that was being referred to just look at this thread. And the many others like it.

A woman is an adult female of the human species. A female is the sex class whose reproductive anatomy is arranged around the production of large sessile gametes. Perfectly accurate.

Now, let's talk about the larger context here. This was a comment to refuse to go down a "rabbit hole" on International Women's Day. Let's repeat that - International WOMEN'S Day.

And on International Women's day... The ACLU took the opportunity to dogmatically preach that Transwomen Are Women, and did not mention a single actual female through the entire day. Several organizations stressed how important it is to center and celebrate transwomen on IWD and did not grant a mention to females at all. Women got preached at to sit down and shut up and celebrate transwomen.

Women who organized marches and demonstrations for International Women's Day were physically and verbally attacked by transwomen and transgender rights activists. Women demonstrating to stop violence against women were attacked by males who identify as women, and called bigots and transphobes.

On the ONE day a year that is set aside to celebrate the accomplishments and feats of women... Women were assaulted, abused, harassed, told that we must celebrate males who identify as women instead of actual women, and politicians writing laws that grant primacy of gender identity over sex refused to even give a name to what the fuck the day is about.

I am sorry but I cannot see what you are complaining about.
If you insist on a distinction between female and woman (I assume that is what you accept) then you should not express surprise that some will use that as a cudgel with which to beat their opponents (real or imagined). It is hard enough as it is to focus on the very real problems that women face without adding an extra extravagant (I will say it out loud: un-necessary) avenue for dissipation of energy and focus.
In Australia for IWD we saw the same thing : transgender activists hijacked the whole day. I am very disappointed but not surprised.

 

[laughing dog]

The basis of your "precise" views misses the point: "woman" is not simply a biological identity but a social one as well.

What is the social identity of a woman? Can you describe what that social identity constitutes?

Woman also refers to what has been traditionally considered feminine attributes. When many people see a person who either resembles and/or acts like an adult female, they may think and treat that person as a woman. They may never know that person is not a biological female, but nonetheless, their reality is that she is a woman.

If that person lives and refers to themself as a woman, and the people in that society think that person is a woman, then in that social setting, that person is a woman.

What are those traditional feminine attributes? How does an adult female act?

Whatever that society views as feminine. I am not going down that rabbit hole.

 

[Elixir]

Spoken like a true gender cultist.

If I ever need to know what a true gender cultist sounds like, I now know who to ask.

 

[Metaphor]

Spoken like a true gender cultist.

If I ever need to know what a true gender cultist sounds like, I now know who to ask.

You don't need to ask yourself verbally, darling! You can use your mental voice!

 

[Enigma]

If you are passing legislation about sex, you damn well better know what

It strikes me that legislation should never be passed legally differentiating on the basis of genital or social identity.

To do so is, quite literally sexist.

It strikes me that the law should never once say "man/woman/penis/vagina" just like it should never even once say "marriage", and instead prefer "domestic partnership contract".

I think you probably need penis and vagina in rape laws.

Except that you really don't.

Someone without a penis nor a vagina can still rape someone without a penis or a vagina. All it takes is any phallic object, and a hole that does not want it going in, and a context outside of medical necessity OR the stimulation of any person to orgasm outside their consent to be in that state.

Apparently in Jarhyn's preferred legal system, force-feeding someone either a banana or a hot-dog (but not a grape or a hamburger) constitutes rape, unless it is one of those rare times where the food item in question is medically necessary.

Fascinating.

 

[JohnG]

sharing spaces with adult human females, where the spaces were separated by sex for reasons of physical safety

So you think LGTBQ people are in disguise so they can molest others?

How you can possibly take that from what I wrote I am certain I do not know.

And, as happens shockingly often with gender cultists, your "question" is the exact opposite of the inference you would draw if you were thinking rationally and without prejudice.

First, I said the spaces were separated by sex for the physical safety and psychological comfort of women and girls. If you think that implies LGBTQ people are 'molesters', that is an idiotic inference to make. Separating spaces by sex makes the implication that it is males (not "LGBTQ people") that could disrupt the physical safety and psychological comfort of females.

Second, separating spaces by sex is an implication that lesbians, gays, and bisexual people are not any kind of threat to women and girls. After all, it means putting in lesbian and bisexual women in with other women, and it means putting gay and bisexual men in with other men.

Third, I have no idea what 'in disguise' means. I think trans women are men, because they are.

It was you who said it wasn't safe. I'm not putting words into your mouth. I can tell by the use of your term "gender cultists" that you feel you are taking some superior position here and that slogan somehow elevates your opinion.

Is your argument about bathrooms and sports?