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University of Minnesota Sexual Assault Case

Ya, because the people who can give those punishments didn't find sufficient evidence of wrongdoing. I don't have confidence that lower standards by less trained people lead to better results.
Your assumption of lower training is unwarranted. Your assumption that the police take these cases as seriously as the University and devote as much time and effort into the investigation is unwarranted.

So, what training do you feel the university investigators have which matches the investigative training which police and DAs get? If my assumptions that it is lower are unwarranted, I would be more than happy to change my position on the matter, but in all the threads on this subject, I've never seen anything to warrant changing those assumptions.

IIRC, the most detailed explanation of their training that's ever been given is that Nice Squirrel once mentioned that his school gives eight hours worth of training and that was a standard to which they wanted other schools to aspire to, meaning they don't even give that little bit. I see no reason to have more confidence in their ability to deliver quality results than I'd confidence in the average cop's ability to do a quality job grading a term paper.
 
Your assumption of lower training is unwarranted. Your assumption that the police take these cases as seriously as the University and devote as much time and effort into the investigation is unwarranted.

So, what training do you feel the university investigators have which matches the investigative training which police and DAs get? If my assumptions that it is lower are unwarranted, I would be more than happy to change my position on the matter, but in all the threads on this subject, I've never seen anything to warrant changing those assumptions.

IIRC, the most detailed explanation of their training that's ever been given is that Nice Squirrel once mentioned that his school gives eight hours worth of training and that was a standard to which they wanted other schools to aspire to, meaning they don't even give that little bit. I see no reason to have more confidence in their ability to deliver quality results than I'd confidence in the average cop's ability to do a quality job grading a term paper.


Other differences to consider are case load, types of cases, and mission and goals. Not to mention differing views how groups view women, women who may have had too much to drink, women who may be sexually active, student athletes, campus safety, perception of class differences and biases, etc. Do you believe that there is more or less bias against blacks on a university campus compared with a town? More or less bias against women? For or against student athletes, or just athletes? Do you believe that drinking among students is viewed differently between campus officials and law enforcement? Do you believe that any of the biases towards or against any of these things play a role in how crime and especially sex crimes are perceived by university administration and by town law enforcement?

In virtually any university town, even reasonably small ones, crime on campus or involving students is a much smaller portion of criminal activity, much less serious criminal activity compared with what is happening in the town or city. If it is a larger city, such as Minneapolis, this is even more true.

Obviously, I have not viewed any of the suspect supplied videos of the incident, but having read the police report, I see a number of flags. Given the brevity of any one of the clips, it boggles the mind that the police felt able to assess the victim's level of sobriety. Stating that when she asked if she should remove her gum prior to engaging in oral sex is seen by the police as proof that she wasn't 'too drunk' and was willing. I read that and think this is someone who is trying to delay what she feels is coming. This does not sound like eagerness to please to me but an attempt to delay or avoid or at least placate. The 'flirting' behavior described could be flirting--or it could just as easily be someone who is attempting to get along to avoid conflict. Conflict meaning physical harm in this case. Someone who is drunk or vastly outnumbered might engage in all sorts of placating behavior. Throw in gender (women are socialized to placate, to be nice) and the sheer size and athleticism of the athletes and it boggles the mind that anyone would consider what was happening to be consensual and not coerced by intimidation. In fact, at least one of the witnesses in the university report states that he didn't think she was 'into it.' Why he didn't come to her aid or call the police is an interesting question. Possibly, he was also intimidated by the sheer numbers of large, well muscled athletes present. Possibly, something else prevented him from taking more action. Something that I have learned is that in fact, very few individuals will come to the aid of someone being assaulted. Personally, I don't understand this.

We know that in general, a lot of people engage in victim blaming, especially in cases of sexual assault. Police are not immune to this behavior. A friend of mine in high school used to spend summers with her grandmother in another town. Things were not good at home for my friend and her grandmother's place was a welcome respite for her, and also for her parents, something of a relief from the financial burden of feeding another person at home. So a win/win. At the end of one summer, when we were back in school, my friend told me that one night, her grandmother's home was broken into. Intruders entered her grandmother's bedroom through the window and raped her grandmother. The police said that it was must have been my friend that the intruders were after. So, one does not even have to be the rape victim to be blamed for the rape of another person. Oh, for the record: my friend was dumpy, wore thick glasses, with a chronic untreated sinus infection and stringy, greasy hair. She dressed mostly in her grandmother's hand me downs, which mostly came from Goodwill and was too shy to talk to boys. But still, to the police, it must have been HER fault.
 
Your assumption of lower training is unwarranted. Your assumption that the police take these cases as seriously as the University and devote as much time and effort into the investigation is unwarranted.

So, what training do you feel the university investigators have which matches the investigative training which police and DAs get? If my assumptions that it is lower are unwarranted, I would be more than happy to change my position on the matter, but in all the threads on this subject, I've never seen anything to warrant changing those assumptions.

The University of Minnesota has its own police department.

I don't get why people are assuming the UMPD would be less skilled at investigating the types of crimes that commonly occur on campus, such as underage drinking, sexual assault, theft, vandalism, etc., than the average Minnesota cop. It seems to me they'd be even better at handling those types of criminal investigations due to having so much experience with them. And since the UMPD sends their reports to the UM administration, that means the admins have direct access to evidence gathered by professionals who actually know what they're doing.
 
So, what training do you feel the university investigators have which matches the investigative training which police and DAs get? If my assumptions that it is lower are unwarranted, I would be more than happy to change my position on the matter, but in all the threads on this subject, I've never seen anything to warrant changing those assumptions.

The University of Minnesota has its own police department.

I don't get why people are assuming the UMPD would be less skilled at investigating the types of crimes that commonly occur on campus, such as underage drinking, sexual assault, theft, vandalism, etc., than the average Minnesota cop. It seems to me they'd be even better at handling those types of criminal investigations due to having so much experience with them. And since the UMPD sends their reports to the UM administration, that means the admins have direct access to evidence gathered by professionals who actually know what they're doing.

Then, I assume that this is the police department being referred to when talking about the police investigation which didn't lay charges, since it would fall under their jurisdiction.

My complaints are about the EOAA investigators, not the police.
 
The University of Minnesota has its own police department.

I don't get why people are assuming the UMPD would be less skilled at investigating the types of crimes that commonly occur on campus, such as underage drinking, sexual assault, theft, vandalism, etc., than the average Minnesota cop. It seems to me they'd be even better at handling those types of criminal investigations due to having so much experience with them. And since the UMPD sends their reports to the UM administration, that means the admins have direct access to evidence gathered by professionals who actually know what they're doing.

Then, I assume that this is the police department being referred to when talking about the police investigation which didn't lay charges, since it would fall under their jurisdiction.

My complaints are about the EOAA investigators, not the police.

Well, that goes to the difference between rules and laws.
 
Then, I assume that this is the police department being referred to when talking about the police investigation which didn't lay charges, since it would fall under their jurisdiction.

My complaints are about the EOAA investigators, not the police.

Well, that goes to the difference between rules and laws.

Also to the difference in how much Tom Sawyer agrees with the findings.
 
My complaints are about the EOAA investigators, not the police.

And what, specifically, is your complaint?

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Well, that goes to the difference between rules and laws.

Also to the difference in how much Tom Sawyer agrees with the findings.

I suspect Tom Sawyer did not read the findings. If he had, I suspect he would not say he has any complaints.
 
Your assumption of lower training is unwarranted. Your assumption that the police take these cases as seriously as the University and devote as much time and effort into the investigation is unwarranted.

So, what training do you feel the university investigators have which matches the investigative training which police and DAs get? If my assumptions that it is lower are unwarranted, I would be more than happy to change my position on the matter, but in all the threads on this subject, I've never seen anything to warrant changing those assumptions.
Why would you think that DAs or police have more education and training about sexual assault, nonconsensual sex and the meaning and applications of university rules than people whose job it is to investigate such claims at the University in light of university rules?
 
And what, specifically, is your complaint?

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Well, that goes to the difference between rules and laws.

Also to the difference in how much Tom Sawyer agrees with the findings.

I suspect Tom Sawyer did not read the findings. If he had, I suspect he would not say he has any complaints.

I gotta disagree. UM suspended students. That means that the university investigation was wrong! After all, 10 against 1. The 10 have gotta be right, right? Plus they are football players.
 
The University of Minnesota has its own police department.

I don't get why people are assuming the UMPD would be less skilled at investigating the types of crimes that commonly occur on campus, such as underage drinking, sexual assault, theft, vandalism, etc., than the average Minnesota cop. It seems to me they'd be even better at handling those types of criminal investigations due to having so much experience with them. And since the UMPD sends their reports to the UM administration, that means the admins have direct access to evidence gathered by professionals who actually know what they're doing.

Then, I assume that this is the police department being referred to when talking about the police investigation which didn't lay charges, since it would fall under their jurisdiction.

My complaints are about the EOAA investigators, not the police.

It actually is the Minneapolis police department as the sexual assault occurred off campus. The UMPD has at least one cop who is dedicating his career to addressing sexual assault, his work has brought at least one rapist to justice. But it was a hell of an uphill battle for the victim to get charges brought in a obvious rape. http://www.startribune.com/after-au...e-her-rapist-u-student-fought-back/398051931/
 
I have been given no reason to think they are anywhere near as competent as the cops are.

Well since they cannot collect physical evidence, but also don't have to meet the same standards of evidence nor can they meet out any punishment beyond expulsion.

I fail to see any way that your statement is a rebuttal of mine.

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As usual... you are mouthing off on a topic that you have not bothered to actually learn anything about.

Read the university report, or shut the fuck up about it - because all of your prattling on about the men on the video being expelled for rape is FUCKING FACTUALLY WRONG and your would KNOW THAT if you READ THE REPORT!!!!!

If you can't be bothered to do that, then kindly don't be bothered with posting in this thread again. Your willful ignorance is stomach-turning

You're the one being guilty of willful ignorance. You're choosing the amateur hour report over the professional report because you like what it says. I'm choosing the professional report because it's far more likely to be right.
 
Then, I assume that this is the police department being referred to when talking about the police investigation which didn't lay charges, since it would fall under their jurisdiction.

My complaints are about the EOAA investigators, not the police.

It actually is the Minneapolis police department as the sexual assault occurred off campus. The UMPD has at least one cop who is dedicating his career to addressing sexual assault, his work has brought at least one rapist to justice. But it was a hell of an uphill battle for the victim to get charges brought in a obvious rape. http://www.startribune.com/after-au...e-her-rapist-u-student-fought-back/398051931/

You're correct. The report said that they'd contacted the campus police and I'd thought it said they handed it over to the campus police. Not really related to the point that I'm making, though, since if the university had handed the matter over to the campus police and acted off of their recommendations, that would be fine since they appear to be competent and trained professionals. It's the acting off the recommendations of the untrained amateurs as opposed to the trained professionals which I'm objecting to.
 
You're the one being guilty of willful ignorance. You're choosing the amateur hour report over the professional report because you like what it says. I'm choosing the professional report because it's far more likely to be right.
You have not read the University report. Which means you have no idea what additional evidence the University investigators had (which included the police report). Nor do you know what the students were actually disciplined for.

You have refused to acknowledge that two different posters have presented links to a recent case where the same police department did not take a campus rape allegation seriously which allowed a serial rapist to continue preying on victims. If you had bothered to pull your head out of your rape apologist's ass, you'd have seen how that victim's persistence paid off and a confessed serial rapist is now in prison. You refuse to read the University report even though it contains additional pertinent information on this situation based on your assumptions about quality of investigations even after it has been pointed out that there is no assurance of a better investigation by the police for a number of reasons not only because of the aforementioned case but because the police do not investigate for violations of University policy or codes of conduct.

Your entire posting history in this thread represents the operational definition of willful ignorance. Your position is the functional equivalent of placing your hands over your eyes and chanting "nanny nanny boo boo". It is not an argument. It is not a rebuttal. It is willful ignorance personified.
 
It actually is the Minneapolis police department as the sexual assault occurred off campus. The UMPD has at least one cop who is dedicating his career to addressing sexual assault, his work has brought at least one rapist to justice. But it was a hell of an uphill battle for the victim to get charges brought in a obvious rape. http://www.startribune.com/after-au...e-her-rapist-u-student-fought-back/398051931/

You're correct. The report said that they'd contacted the campus police and I'd thought it said they handed it over to the campus police. Not really related to the point that I'm making, though, since if the university had handed the matter over to the campus police and acted off of their recommendations, that would be fine since they appear to be competent and trained professionals. It's the acting off the recommendations of the untrained amateurs as opposed to the trained professionals which I'm objecting to.

So when guilt or innocence is determined by a jury, how much total experience does that jury have?
 
Well since they cannot collect physical evidence, but also don't have to meet the same standards of evidence nor can they meet out any punishment beyond expulsion.

I fail to see any way that your statement is a rebuttal of mine.

- - - Updated - - -

As usual... you are mouthing off on a topic that you have not bothered to actually learn anything about.

Read the university report, or shut the fuck up about it - because all of your prattling on about the men on the video being expelled for rape is FUCKING FACTUALLY WRONG and your would KNOW THAT if you READ THE REPORT!!!!!

If you can't be bothered to do that, then kindly don't be bothered with posting in this thread again. Your willful ignorance is stomach-turning

You're the one being guilty of willful ignorance. You're choosing the amateur hour report over the professional report because you like what it says. I'm choosing the professional report because it's far more likely to be right.
Keep right on talking out of your ass. Those of us who have actually read the university report know exactly how ridiculous you sound, and why. You don't. You won't until you read the report. You are being willfully ignorant, and are therefore not worthy of consideration

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You're correct. The report said that they'd contacted the campus police and I'd thought it said they handed it over to the campus police. Not really related to the point that I'm making, though, since if the university had handed the matter over to the campus police and acted off of their recommendations, that would be fine since they appear to be competent and trained professionals. It's the acting off the recommendations of the untrained amateurs as opposed to the trained professionals which I'm objecting to.

So when guilt or innocence is determined by a jury, how much total experience does that jury have?

And juries are specifically forbidden from investigating the case. Doing so will get a juror thrown off, or a mistrial if too many are involved.
 
So when guilt or innocence is determined by a jury, how much total experience does that jury have?

And juries are specifically forbidden from investigating the case. Doing so will get a juror thrown off, or a mistrial if too many are involved.
As usual, you either missed or evaded the obvious point. You are claiming that experience and training matter in investigations. Clearly it ought to matter in sorting throw evidence, deciding on credibility and decision-making - which is exactly what the police, university investigators, juries and the university deciders of discipline do. So Nice Squirrel's question is relevant - try to actually answer it.
 
And juries are specifically forbidden from investigating the case. Doing so will get a juror thrown off, or a mistrial if too many are involved.
As usual, you either missed or evaded the obvious point. You are claiming that experience and training matter in investigations. Clearly it ought to matter in sorting throw evidence, deciding on credibility and decision-making - which is exactly what the police, university investigators, juries and the university deciders of discipline do. So Nice Squirrel's question is relevant - try to actually answer it.

He made a comparison to juries. I was showing it's wrong because juries are not investigators. By the time they see it everything has been distilled down. If some special knowledge is needed to evaluate something whatever side is presenting it will take the time to explain it to the jury.
 
As usual, you either missed or evaded the obvious point. You are claiming that experience and training matter in investigations. Clearly it ought to matter in sorting throw evidence, deciding on credibility and decision-making - which is exactly what the police, university investigators, juries and the university deciders of discipline do. So Nice Squirrel's question is relevant - try to actually answer it.

He made a comparison to juries. I was showing it's wrong because juries are not investigators. By the time they see it everything has been distilled down. If some special knowledge is needed to evaluate something whatever side is presenting it will take the time to explain it to the jury.
All you have shown is a willful evasion of the obvious point. The jurors have to still weigh the evidence and make a judgment - just like the police and the DA.
 
I find it interesting that no one complaining about the university's actions can or will specify what the university's rulings were. You all are carrying on about your 'police vs university' blah blah blah and not even realizing how silly you sound given how far off base you are about the actual facts.
 
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