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University of Otago student association gives "sportswoman of the year" award to a man.

Back to the topic and to Metaphor, the question I would ask you is:

what is it that would really be lost for you, even if it meant perhaps changing your mind, to accept that some small minority of people
a) feel an overwhelming urge to change (they might say, “correct,”) their sex

Note that the trans space is much bigger than people with gender dysphoria who wish to 'transition' to the opposite sex. Trans activists claim that gender dysphoria is not necessary to be trans, that there are an undefined but large number of genders, that no trans-identified person needs to make any physical or medical changes whatever, and that pronouns that are indistinguishable from parody must be accepted.

b) go to incredible (and expensive) lengths to become that other sex, and…

Mammals cannot change sex.

c) at the end of this process, they’ve successfully “become” that other sex, if not 100% biologically/genetically to your specifications, but to the point that withholding assent (that they’ve “changed sexes”) is no longer reasonable.

I have a feeling you’d happily grant me condition “A.” Yes, you’d say, clearly some people desperately want to be the sex they weren’t born into. You may even be aware that the term for this is gender dysphoria, which is the distress a person feels due to a mismatch between their gender identity and their biological sex as expressed at their birth. So far, so good.

I believe you’d happily grant me condition “B” as well. Yes, you’d agree, there are people who go to extreme lengths to change their bodies, both externally and internally, in the quest to become that other sex. We know this because there are multiple examples running around in plain sight, either as very visible celebrities or (more commonly) as people simply trying to fit in and be comfortable in their new body. Still so far, so good.

Getting to stage “C”, as you’ve made unmistakably clear, is your sticking point—you’ve adamantly labelled it an impossibility—and you do it with a fervor that, I’m sorry, DOES closely resemble the closedmindedness of Young Earth Creationists.

You are poisoning the well, again. If you merely wanted to highlight that my belief is solid, you could say 'you believe that with the same conviction you believe that Canberra is the capital of Australia." It behooves me to correct anybody who insists that no, Sydney is the capital of Australia. It doesn't make my belief that Canberra is the capital 'fervent' or 'closeminded'.

That isn’t poisoning the well, that’s pointing out the similarity of steadfastly clinging to a belief you don’t HAVE to cling to,

Of course I have to believe it. I cannot jettison beliefs I know to be true and replace them with ideas I know to be false. That's not how brains work.

which is contradicted by evidence,

No mammal has ever changed sex. What evidence do you have that a mammal has or could? What biologists have you been talking to that told you "mammals can change sex"? What text book told you mammals can change sex?

which is increasingly outdated and obsolete,
and which, to put it clumsily, “doesn’t hurt you, either way.”

I guess I’m asking, why do you care (and, please don’t tell me that you don’t) if Carl wants so bad to be Carla (because for his entire life he’s felt he’s a girl walking around in a boy’s body, and later a woman in a man’s body) that he spends many thousands of dollars and endures painful recoveries to do everything physically possible to transform his body into that of a woman, including breasts, a vagina, smooth legs?
What is so important to you (because something clearly is) about being able to scoff, “Nope. Still a man”?

Because being able to utter the truth is important to me. Being allowed to have the facts is important to me. A man does not become a woman by gaining additional breast tissue, inverting his testicles into a neovagina, and by shaving his legs. I cannot look at Laurel Hubbard and believe he is a woman because he is not a woman. I do not believe I should have to participate in the religion of trans identity. I should not have to invoke their chants and prayers ("trans women are women, trans men are men, non-binary identities are valid"). I cannot give away any semblance of reason in my thoughts to believe that penis-in-vagina sex can be a lesbian act.

Further, at the end of this process, isn’t this hypothetical Carla “enough of a woman” to warrant being called a woman and being called Carla instead of Carl by her former friends,

Carla can never be "enough of a woman" to warrant being called a woman, because a woman is an adult human female, and Carla is not that.

Now, in most societies we generally do respect the name people give for themselves, so calling the person 'Carla' is not a problem.

and be seen by society as a woman, and use women’s restrooms, and join women’s clubs or groups, among other things?

If Carla were 'woman enough' to join those spaces, if society already saw him as 'woman enough', he'd be 'woman enough' to enter those spaces without a policy of any kind. A woman doesn't get nervous when another woman enters a public restroom, because they can see the person who entered is a woman.

Note that trans activists do not want any transwoman to have to go to the lengths you have described in order to be seen as 'enough of a woman'.

I hang quotes around “enough of a woman” to kind of give you your point (which is true) that at the biological level, “Carla” is not 100% female, even if she is socially, mentally, externally (by appearance, etc.)

I would think of this Carla as a woman, and call her one, if for no other reason than that’s what she wants, and that’s what she’s gone to great lengths to attain, and she finally feels “right” as that, and, not to put too fine a point on it, it’s no fucking skin off MY nose if she’s a woman now. And yes, I’d call her a woman even knowing that traces of her “maleness” still lurk in her body, and always have, and always will. But, and this is the point, for all intents and purposes, this person is now a woman. You can hang an asterisk on her, if you must (WAS BORN A MAN! WAS BORN A MAN!) but at the end of the day, withholding assent (that she has changed sexes) is no longer reasonable.

You can think of Carla as a woman if you like, and call her one. I'm not the boss of you. But it is certainly skin off my nose if you force ME to call her a woman, when that is not something I believe, not something I can believe, and not something it is reasonable for anybody to believe. I might engage in polite fictions about Carla but that is what they would be.

SOMETHING really sticks in your craw about trans people. I don’t know what it is and don’t care to speculate, but, as far as I can see, you’re irrationally concerned about something that doesn’t affect you, much if at all, and adamant to the point of stubbornness on the premise that people can’t [effectively] change sexes.

Something sticks in my craw about being forced to participate in make believe.

In Canada, an employee was awarded $30,000 because another employee used she/her pronouns for her, when she wanted they/them pronouns. In her testimony to the tribunal, she claims deep trauma from hearing she/her pronouns.

The owner of a private campground in Michigan, America wanted to make his grounds all male. This made a lot of people extremely angry, because trans activists cannot allow people to choose with whom they want to associate. They cannot abide the thought that some men just want to be around other men, and not women masquerading as men, and the thought is so triggering to them they will use every social and legal tool available to them to stop it.

In my younger days, I occasionally visited a gay sex-on-premises venue. Do you believe a transman is 'man enough' to be admitted? If the majority of members did not want transmen admitted, or if the owner didn't want it, shouldn't he have that right?


What would you be giving up to grant that, yes, in vanishingly small numbers and after a virtual battery of treatments, some people [effectively, if you must] ‘change sexes’?

Women would have their sporting achievements trampled upon, to appease the vanity of men who believe they have qualified as women.

Women's psychological comfort and physical security are compromised when they are forced to accept males into their spaces.

Freedom of speech, thought, and conscience are compromised by the legal erasure of a person's birth sex, the general proscription on 'deadnaming', the government enforcement of pronouns.

Do you know the people who are banned on Twitter? Donald Trump, and people who "misgender".

The trans-industrial complex absolutely dominates nearly all LGBT organisations and societies. Absolutely absurd ideas, like that gender is assigned at birth, or that homosexual men are attracted to the 'male gender' and not the male sex, are now uttered without any murmur of protest or pushback. Caitlyn Jenner's bio on Wikipedia, describing his athletic history, where he competed and won as a man, is un-fucking-readable because of the desperate need for the author to avoid any pronouns. The trans-industrial complex has been so successful, a man can expose his penis to young girls in a female-only spa, and the outcry is about the people who called him a man.

The trans-industrial complex has been so successful that it's as if they read Nineteen Eighty-Four as an instruction manual.
 
The problem with that is that the definition, along with the overarching set of expectations/characteristics of what it means to be only "male" or "female"...is changing. It is evolving--slowly--probably far too slowly for some, and yet way too uncomfortably fast for others--but, today's definition of gender would not be the same as it would have been in, oh, I dunno, 1921, let's say; a hundred years ago.

At it's simplest, I'd say that "gender" is (or, was,) more or less synonymous with "sex," as used casually to say someone is a man or a woman; a boy or a girl. But there is gradual awareness, now, that "gender" exists more as a spectrum (albeit, a fairly condensed one) than as a perfect black or white binary system in which there are ONLY, EVER, "just' men and women. Part of the issue is that "sex" more often, I think, refers to biological/genetic makeup while "gender" is more of a social construct, but, again, they tend to be used interchangeably. If a form asked me, "what's your gender?', it's not like I'm confused--I'd put "male." If someone asked me my partner's gender, I'd say, "she's a woman." (my wife.)

I think one could use "gender" to identify people as "he's a man" or "she's a woman" correctly, with confidence and appropriateness, a very high percentage of the time, since the vast majority of people happen to be born, live their lives, and die having been one or the other, a man or a woman, the whole time. Which is great; good for them, I guess.

But that doesn't account for everybody.

I hope that helps find common ground.

I support the general desire you've outlined here... but I have a different approach.

Sex is real, and it is strictly binary. Sex is not a spectrum, and people who have DSDs aren't a mix of sexes or some other sex altogether. Rather, they have medical conditions that sometimes cause ambiguous expression of sex characteristics. The overwhelming majority of DSDs don't even do that - they still have unambiguously male or female anatomies, and their disorder is expressed as either infertility as an adult, or as a failure of their secondary sex characteristics to emerge at puberty. The number of people with DSDs that express as ambiguous genitalia (as opposed to unusually shaped but unambiguous genitalia, or things like the urethral exit being located somewhere other than the tip of the penis) is vanishingly small. Even in those cases, however, the person is still inherently one sex or another - just as a human who is born without legs is still a human and not a fish.

Gender is largely a social construct. And this is where my approach goes 180 degrees. I don't think that there is social value in using social constructs to label and define people as "man" or "woman" based on how well they conform to those construct, or how strongly they resonate with those constructs. I think that ends up being largely regressive and reinforces sex-based stereotypes.

Rather, I would strongly prefer to abolish those constructs. I would much rather see a world in which a boy who likes dresses and baby dolls is no less of a boy than one who likes rockets and jeans. I'd rather a world in which a girl is allowed to wear trousers and cut her hair short and climb trees and operate heavy machinery, and not be considered any less of a girl for it. I would strongly prefer to allow people of either sex to express themselves in whatever way they like, with whatever accessories or embellishments pleases them.

I'd rather a world in which "gender non-conforming" is a meaningless phrase, simply because there is no social expectation of conformity to any gender role or expression in the first place.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

With that in mind, however, there will still be people who experience severe innate gender dysphoria. There always have been, and there likely always will be, some few people who have a significant psychiatric disconnect from their sexed bodies. And those people should be accommodated so that they can live their lives in comfort with themselves, and they should be treated with dignity and respect.
 
The physical aspects of sex don't matter in the overwhelming majority of human endeavors. In competitive sports it does. The male physique generally has a batch of advantages, in this one thing, over the female physique. But ideological purists cannot admit that not everything is as pure as they are. So they use insults and strawman arguments and handwaving rather than arguments.
Tom

I'm going to counter this a bit... The physical aspects of sex don't matter to men in the overwhelming majority of male endeavors. I would suggest that the physical aspects of sex shouldn't matter in most endeavors, but I think you severely underestimate the impact that sex has on the life and experience of women.
 
No. Not even the physical aspect of who has a penis or even testicles matters. We have plenty of humans in our world now who stand tribute to that.

In reality it is the hormonal exposures that one undergoes, and continues to undergo, which are the actual chemical driver for the physiological response.

When a person with a penis and testicles is placed in a jail cell with a person with a vagina, I think it matters an awful lot more for HER than it does for HIM.
When a person with a penis and testicles is following a person with a vagina in a dimply lit area, I think it matters an awful lot more for HER than it does for HIM.
When a person with a penis and testicles sexually assaults or rapes a person with a vagina, I think it matters an awful lot more for HER than it does for HIM.
When a person with a penis and testicles impregnates a person with a vagina, I think it matters an awful lot more for HER than it does for HIM.
 
No. Not even the physical aspect of who has a penis or even testicles matters. We have plenty of humans in our world now who stand tribute to that.

In reality it is the hormonal exposures that one undergoes, and continues to undergo, which are the actual chemical driver for the physiological response.

When a person with a penis and testicles is placed in a jail cell with a person with a vagina, I think it matters an awful lot more for HER than it does for HIM.
When a person with a penis and testicles is following a person with a vagina in a dimply lit area, I think it matters an awful lot more for HER than it does for HIM.
When a person with a penis and testicles sexually assaults or rapes a person with a vagina, I think it matters an awful lot more for HER than it does for HIM.
When a person with a penis and testicles impregnates a person with a vagina, I think it matters an awful lot more for HER than it does for HIM.

I see your claim and bring you back around to the trans woman who was murdered by her cell mate. And again you beg the question of who is "her".
 
Sex is a biological fact, and sex in humans is immutable. Some people do not accept that but that's okay - they are beyond help.

Sex in humans is most assuredly not immutable. I honestly don't know why you're so invested in it BEING immutable, but it is not, because if it were, it would be impossible for people to change sexes--and, I hate to be the one to tell you this, but, people do change sexes.

I don't mean Ralph likes to put on a sun dress and prance around in high heels on Sundays, I mean that there are men who have elaborate surgeries to remove their genitals and have them replaced with functional vaginas, take full-blast hormone replacement treatments to the point that they express natural breasts, and can even menstruate.
This is incorrect. A neovagina is not a functional vagina. It is a facsimile of a vagina, but it is not at all comparable to an organic vagina. And at no point does a neovagina menstruate. Not even a little bit. Breasts do grow with the application of estrogen, however, unless those hormones occur during the natural era of pubertal development, the ducts don't form properly and the breasts don't function as mammary glands.

It takes some doing, to "overcome" the sex expressed at birth--as one might expect--but the point is that they do it, and at the end of that process, they have become a woman, to the point that withholding assent to that concept is untenable; unreasonable. God only knows what kind of "out-of-body" mental anguish must drive these people to do it, because it isn't an easy process, but THEY know they're in 'the wrong body' and they'll do whatever it takes to feel right. (And as a side issue, I think they deserve our support and respect rather than being easy punchlines for "normal" people who had the good fortune to be born in the body that feels right for them.).
"Overcome" is a reasonable term. Given considerable cosmetic intervention, some transgender people can pass as the opposite sex, and successfully live their live as such, with full acceptance of those without gender dysphoria. But at the end of the day, they don't actually change sex. No amount of hormones will make testes produce eggs, and no amount of hormones will make ovaries produce sperm.

Consider a very boiled-down analogy: I could bleach my hair and live my life as a blonde, and be very successful at it, and be accepted as a natural blonde by everyone I meet. But if I were to have a kid... they would receive a gene coded for brunette hair from me.

Shorter version: The Kardashians aren't going to passing those asses on to their offspring.
 
I've been preparing my personal ordered lists, on many different topics, for almost six decades! Great fun. As just one example, who are the seven greatest U.S. Presidents? (I go with the four on Mount Rushmore, FDR, Dwight Eisenhower and ... Harry Truman! For the record, Jefferson's inclusion is a no-brainer: Recall that his Louisiana Purchase squeaked through Congress on a 59-57 vote.)

Right now, America has a LOT of problems. (That's "LOT" with a capital L! :) ) I'm afraid to make a List of the Ten Most Important Problems Facing the U.S.A. — Afraid that Ten won't be enough to cover the many important and urgent problems we face.

Question: Does anyone think gender confusion — or whatever this thread is about — would make the Top Twenty List of America's pressing problems?

Raise your hand if you think it would make the Top Hundred List.

:wave2:

:wave2: :wave2:
 
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BTW, I don't live in America either. I live in Thailand where homosexuals and transsexuals are rather common and very well-accepted. We have a married transsexual friend. One of the best detectives at the local police station is a male who dresses and makes up like a pretty woman. At parties I've watched him and other male police enjoy each other's company or even pretend to flirt. (And of course the transvestite shows in Pattaya are world-famous.)

Admittedly, I am unacquainted with any Thai weightlifters, whether male, female or "other."

I am curious on this topic. I support greater social acceptance of transsexual people, I think it's a fantastic thing, in part because it helps to demolish confining gender roles.

In Thailand, I know there's a lot more social acceptance of transwomen (I don't know if 'thai ladyboys' is considered a slur?). Are they generally surgically altered, or is it more common for them to retain their male genitals?

Is there as much cultural acceptance of females who identify and live as men?

Are transsexuals considered legally the same as their transitioned sex in all matters, or are there limitations? For example, if a male-bodied transwoman who still retained a functional penis were to end up in jail, would they be placed in a female ward?

Are there legal steps to go through in order for a person to change their status? If so, are there requirements involved, or is it based on self-declaration?
 
If the square, rectangle, circle, and half moon puzzle pieces fit into the square hole does that mean the test is a failure?
This one is for Metaphor..
 
If the square, rectangle, circle, and half moon puzzle pieces fit into the square hole does that mean the test is a failure?
This one is for Metaphor..

You will have to be more specific. What is the setup of 'the test', what is 'the test' meant to measure, and to whom does 'failure' belong - the test-makers or the test-taker?
 
Back to the topic and to Metaphor, the question I would ask you is:

what is it that would really be lost for you, even if it meant perhaps changing your mind, to accept that some small minority of people
a) feel an overwhelming urge to change (they might say, “correct,”) their sex
b) go to incredible (and expensive) lengths to become that other sex, and…
c) at the end of this process, they’ve successfully “become” that other sex, if not 100% biologically/genetically to your specifications, but to the point that withholding assent (that they’ve “changed sexes”) is no longer reasonable.

I'll chip in my view, and say yes to all three - if those conditions are met. I'll even give you a provisional c) when b) is only partially met. If a transgender person is making a genuine effort to pass, then I would be quite happy to grant them status as a woman in nearly all situations, and I would support case-by-case determinations in all others. For example, if a moderately passing transwoman goes to a rape shelter, but is still in possession of a penis, I would expect them to be admitted on the condition that they behave and keep their genitals covered... but with the consideration that if they don't pass well enough to keep the other women from being made to feel unsafe or re-traumatized, perhaps they get a private room or a separate wing. And if they were to be unlucky enough to end up in prison, they would default to either the men's wing or a separate wing, with the provision that on review they could be granted access to the women's prison.

That said... I don't think it's reasonable to extend all of the recognition of being "female" to Alex Drummond, who has not undergone any HRT nor any surgery, and has no intention of doing so... but still wants to be treated as a woman in every situation and every scenario as a right, despite the clearly masculine look and the luxurious beard.

411bcT6wyIL._SX351_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg
 
If the square, rectangle, circle, and half moon puzzle pieces fit into the square hole does that mean the test is a failure?
This one is for Metaphor..

You will have to be more specific. What is the setup of 'the test', what is 'the test' meant to measure, and to whom does 'failure' belong - the test-makers or the test-taker?
It's based on a toy that most adult children have used.
If the child or adult child performs the function of placing all the pieces of the puzzle into one slot given there are other slots which match the appearance of the pieces, was the model provided to the subjects valid?
 
If the square, rectangle, circle, and half moon puzzle pieces fit into the square hole does that mean the test is a failure?
This one is for Metaphor..

You will have to be more specific. What is the setup of 'the test', what is 'the test' meant to measure, and to whom does 'failure' belong - the test-makers or the test-taker?
It's based on a toy that most adult children have used.
If the child or adult child performs the function of placing all the pieces of the puzzle into one slot given there are other slots which match the appearance of the pieces, was the model provided to the subjects valid?

What "model"? What does this have to do with the OP?
 
It's based on a toy that most adult children have used.
If the child or adult child performs the function of placing all the pieces of the puzzle into one slot given there are other slots which match the appearance of the pieces, was the model provided to the subjects valid?

What "model"? What does this have to do with the OP?
It's a Metaphor for your frustration that's all.
I was hoping, given your login name, that you could grasp simple concepts through language.
You've already admitted you cannot parse what I have to say sensibly.
I asked you how you could overcome that deficiency and your solution was to coddle your feelings.
It is a metaphor.
 
It's based on a toy that most adult children have used.
If the child or adult child performs the function of placing all the pieces of the puzzle into one slot given there are other slots which match the appearance of the pieces, was the model provided to the subjects valid?

What "model"? What does this have to do with the OP?
It's a Metaphor for your frustration that's all.
I was hoping, given your login name, that you could grasp simple concepts through language.
You've already admitted you cannot parse what I have to say sensibly.
I asked you how you could overcome that deficiency and your solution was to coddle your feelings.
It is a metaphor.

I admit: I cannot read your mind and cannot make sense of your sloppy, ambiguous prose. And if you cannot answer questions to clear up the deficiencies in your writing, then I can't answer your questions.
 
It's a Metaphor for your frustration that's all.
I was hoping, given your login name, that you could grasp simple concepts through language.
You've already admitted you cannot parse what I have to say sensibly.
I asked you how you could overcome that deficiency and your solution was to coddle your feelings.
It is a metaphor.

I admit: I cannot read your mind and cannot make sense of your sloppy, ambiguous prose. And if you cannot answer questions to clear up the deficiencies in your writing, then I can't answer your questions.
Well take some time to read what I directed at you by name and quit denying yourself, nobody likes it when you beat yourself up
 
It's a Metaphor for your frustration that's all.
I was hoping, given your login name, that you could grasp simple concepts through language.
You've already admitted you cannot parse what I have to say sensibly.
I asked you how you could overcome that deficiency and your solution was to coddle your feelings.
It is a metaphor.

I admit: I cannot read your mind and cannot make sense of your sloppy, ambiguous prose. And if you cannot answer questions to clear up the deficiencies in your writing, then I can't answer your questions.
Well take some time to read what I directed at you by name and quit denying yourself, nobody likes it when you beat yourself up

I read it, I asked questions about it, and you cleared nothing up, at all.

You may believe you have written clearly and unambiguously, but you have not, and I'm not going to play guessing games with your 'real' meaning, only later to be accused of strawmanning.
 
Well unlike most adult children, some just don't get written words
Is that better?
 
Well unlike most adult children, some just don't get written words
Is that better?

I don't get it either, tbh. I am familiar with the puzzles, but I have no idea what you're driving at. As a brazen generality, I'd say that a puzzle where the pieces all fit in the same spot is a crappy puzzle and has a fundamental design flaw.

I'm quite certain that you intend to extrapolate that in some fashion... but I have no idea where you're going with it, nor do I have any idea at all what it has to do with this thread or how it serves as an analogy of any sort.
 
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