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University of Otago student association gives "sportswoman of the year" award to a man.

This fixation that some people have about finding news on trans people is kinda peculiar. Yup. Very peculiar I'd say.

I was just wondering what linked him to that too... shemale porn, maybe?

Perhaps people like you and [MENTION=236]Elixir[/MENTION]; might try to understand what is being said? Rather than just insulting Metaphor?

I realize that it's easy and fun to insult people. And since y'all are in the large majority on TFT it's also popular. But it's not particularly rational or moral to substitute insults and strawman arguments for discussion.
Tom
 
Sports are stupid... like Roman Empire colosseum level primitive and outdated.
The solution to gender issues in physical competitions against each other is obvious... Eliminate physical competitions for "sport".
Stop being a caveman - problem solved.
 
This fixation that some people have about finding news on trans people is kinda peculiar. Yup. Very peculiar I'd say.

I was just wondering what linked him to that too... shemale porn, maybe?

Perhaps people like you an @Elixir might try to understand what is being said? Rather than just insulting Metaphor?

I realize that it's easy and fun to insult people. And since y'all are in the large majority on TFT it's also popular. But it's not particularly rational or moral to substitute insults and strawman arguments for discussion.
Tom

I take that as a yes. Your hypersensitivity betrays you.
 
Sports are stupid... like Roman Empire colosseum level primitive and outdated.
The solution to gender issues in physical competitions against each other is obvious... Eliminate physical competitions for "sport".
Stop being a caveman - problem solved.

That is some spectacular all-or-nothing logic there.
 
Perhaps people like you an @Elixir might try to understand what is being said? Rather than just insulting Metaphor?

I realize that it's easy and fun to insult people. And since y'all are in the large majority on TFT it's also popular. But it's not particularly rational or moral to substitute insults and strawman arguments for discussion.
Tom

I take that as a yes. Your hypersensitivity betrays you.

Nah. Several of you guys simply HATE Metaphor. So much so that you absolutely will not grant any respect or consideration to him whatsoever. I swear, he could say that the sky is blue and that 2+2=4... and half a dozen TFT posters will crawl out of the woodworks to argue that he's wrong and an evil bigot to boot.

FFS, I have rather strong disagreements with Met on several issues. But not all issues. And at least I have the presence of mind to view his arguments and perspectives on their own merits rather than through a hate-filled haze of assumed malice.
 
Perhaps people like you an @Elixir might try to understand what is being said? Rather than just insulting Metaphor?
.

Lol! Perhaps you should succinctly express what you think lies beyond my (or GN's) understanding instead of reciting your usual whine.
It's not like Meta has some ideas that are so transcendent, so very profound that a normal person can't get what he means or where he's coming from.
Prove me wrong.

FWIW sports ARE silly. It's fun to compete, and high level sports are fun to watch. That's all.
All this gay trans cis bullshit is just stupid, except insofar as it effects the participation of individuals. Maybe allowances should also be made for people who, through no fault or choice of their own, simply suck at sports. Participation trophies for everyone.

Seriously, owners of entertainment media, including sports teams and leagues, should be allowed to hire or decline to hire whoever they want. And this case doesn't even go that deep - sorry!

As a side note, a neighbor who swims and trains at our local pool (where I swim) came back with a bronze medal from the Tokyo paralympics. She has a physical disability and has to compete against others who have mental and/or other physical disabilities that do not so directly impede their swim times... Do we scream about how unfair that is? NO. We congratulate her and celebrate with her. She has already moved on. Why don't you, @TomC ?
 
Lol! Perhaps you should succinctly express what you think lies beyond my (or GN's) understanding instead of reciting your usual whine.

The damage being done to cis females greatly outweighs the advantages being given to trans females.

Tom
 
Sports are stupid... like Roman Empire colosseum level primitive and outdated.
The solution to gender issues in physical competitions against each other is obvious... Eliminate physical competitions for "sport".
Stop being a caveman - problem solved.

Well, it would make tavern conversations easier to endure. Chubby guys with tankards of beer could be discussing opera and Manet vs. Monet.
 
Metaphor...if I may.

I don't really have a dog in this hunt; I've been following along more or less just to have something to read. I can see valid points on both sides of this debate -- if one were to say there were only two-- but on a more fundamental level, what I think is going on is this:

For years and decades and centuries past, "gender" was strictly defined as a stark, binary, black OR white box to check off, even though it isn't, wasn't, and never has been, but...that's the way you grew up with it and that's the way you're used to it being. And the world is changing faster than you're prepared to accept. That isn't an indictment of you; it's simply to say that (in my opinion) what you're doing is refusing to get on board with this emergent re-imagining, this burgeoning acceptance, of gender as being more fluid, more malleable, only because it flies in the face of the way you've always known gender and are used to thinking of it.

Do you allow for that possibility?

Define 'gender' for me, as you've used it in the above paragraph.
 
Perhaps people like you an @Elixir might try to understand what is being said? Rather than just insulting Metaphor?

I realize that it's easy and fun to insult people. And since y'all are in the large majority on TFT it's also popular. But it's not particularly rational or moral to substitute insults and strawman arguments for discussion.
Tom

I take that as a yes. Your hypersensitivity betrays you.

Nah. Several of you guys simply HATE Metaphor. So much so that you absolutely will not grant any respect or consideration to him whatsoever. I swear, he could say that the sky is blue and that 2+2=4... and half a dozen TFT posters will crawl out of the woodworks to argue that he's wrong and an evil bigot to boot.

FFS, I have rather strong disagreements with Met on several issues. But not all issues. And at least I have the presence of mind to view his arguments and perspectives on their own merits rather than through a hate-filled haze of assumed malice.

Actually no. It's obvious Metaphor has a REAL ISSUE with transgendered persons since the vast majority of posts that he starts are on the topic and derogatory.
 
Seems like this thread is mis-titled.
Should be: Metaphor disagrees with University of Otago student association’s definition of a woman. Thinks they should listen to him.

Do you feel this is an appropriate post for a mod to make?

I agree with the first sentence you wrote. The second sentence is false. When I went to university back in the stone age, I was already aware of the intractable, hard left cloud cuckoo land nature of "student unions" -- elected by less than 7 per cent of the student population that took part in elections, but nevertheless supported by compulsory student unionism and fees extracted from students.

What a student union thinks a woman is does not concern me. That strange ideas (like that some men can be women) that began in academia now have increasing public purchase does.

It makes sense that someone that went to school in the "stone age" only knows how to bang stones together when a modern university creates fire. Must be very scary for you... all these new ideas...

Thank you for your substantive and thoughtful contribution to the debate.
 
Nah. Several of you guys simply HATE Metaphor. So much so that you absolutely will not grant any respect or consideration to him whatsoever. I swear, he could say that the sky is blue and that 2+2=4... and half a dozen TFT posters will crawl out of the woodworks to argue that he's wrong and an evil bigot to boot.

FFS, I have rather strong disagreements with Met on several issues. But not all issues. And at least I have the presence of mind to view his arguments and perspectives on their own merits rather than through a hate-filled haze of assumed malice.

Actually no. It's obvious Metaphor has a REAL ISSUE with transgendered persons since the vast majority of posts that he starts are on the topic and derogatory.

I have a REAL ISSUE with being forced to utter the prayers of somebody else's faith, yes. Is that 'malice'?

EDIT: And--even if I did have a REAL ISSUE with transgendered persons--so what? That cannot change the soundness of my arguments from right to wrong or wrong to right.
 
Metaphor...if I may.

I don't really have a dog in this hunt; I've been following along more or less just to have something to read. I can see valid points on both sides of this debate -- if one were to say there were only two-- but on a more fundamental level, what I think is going on is this:

For years and decades and centuries past, "gender" was strictly defined as a stark, binary, black OR white box to check off, even though it isn't, wasn't, and never has been, but...that's the way you grew up with it and that's the way you're used to it being. And the world is changing faster than you're prepared to accept. That isn't an indictment of you; it's simply to say that (in my opinion) what you're doing is refusing to get on board with this emergent re-imagining, this burgeoning acceptance, of gender as being more fluid, more malleable, only because it flies in the face of the way you've always known gender and are used to thinking of it.

Do you allow for that possibility?

Define 'gender' for me, as you've used it in the above paragraph.

The problem with that is that the definition, along with the overarching set of expectations/characteristics of what it means to be only "male" or "female"...is changing. It is evolving--slowly--probably far too slowly for some, and yet way too uncomfortably fast for others--but, today's definition of gender would not be the same as it would have been in, oh, I dunno, 1921, let's say; a hundred years ago.

At it's simplest, I'd say that "gender" is (or, was,) more or less synonymous with "sex," as used casually to say someone is a man or a woman; a boy or a girl. But there is gradual awareness, now, that "gender" exists more as a spectrum (albeit, a fairly condensed one) than as a perfect black or white binary system in which there are ONLY, EVER, "just' men and women. Part of the issue is that "sex" more often, I think, refers to biological/genetic makeup while "gender" is more of a social construct, but, again, they tend to be used interchangeably. If a form asked me, "what's your gender?', it's not like I'm confused--I'd put "male." If someone asked me my partner's gender, I'd say, "she's a woman." (my wife.)

I think one could use "gender" to identify people as "he's a man" or "she's a woman" correctly, with confidence and appropriateness, a very high percentage of the time, since the vast majority of people happen to be born, live their lives, and die having been one or the other, a man or a woman, the whole time. Which is great; good for them, I guess.

But that doesn't account for everybody.

I hope that helps find common ground.
 
... the definition [of gender], along with the overarching set of expectations/characteristics of what it means...is changing.

From what I can gather, there is no possible definition, even within a narrow context that is specified and clarified, that will put a stop to Metaphor's perpetual quest for definitions of gender as a set response to all questions challenging his view while using the word "gender".

Good explanation, though.
 
The problem with that is that the definition, along with the overarching set of expectations/characteristics of what it means to be only "male" or "female"...is changing.

That is not helpful to me. You must have meant something when you wrote 'gender' in the above paragraph. In this thread, the very first challenge I got was to define 'woman', which I did. I am now asking people who use the term 'gender' to explain what they mean.

It is evolving--slowly--probably far too slowly for some, and yet way too uncomfortably fast for others--but, today's definition of gender would not be the same as it would have been in, oh, I dunno, 1921, let's say; a hundred years ago.

At it's simplest, I'd say that "gender" is (or, was,) more or less synonymous with "sex," as used casually to say someone is a man or a woman; a boy or a girl. But there is gradual awareness, now, that "gender" exists more as a spectrum (albeit, a fairly condensed one) than as a perfect black or white binary system in which there are ONLY, EVER, "just' men and women. Part of the issue is that "sex" more often, I think, refers to biological/genetic makeup while "gender" is more of a social construct, but, again, they tend to be used interchangeably. If a form asked me, "what's your gender?', it's not like I'm confused--I'd put "male." If someone asked me my partner's gender, I'd say, "she's a woman." (my wife.)

But you have not explained what you mean by gender. You appear to indicate it sometimes, in some situations (most situations?) means "sex". It is a "polite-sounding" synonym for sex. But what does it mean when you are not using it to mean "sex"?

Above, you say "gender" does not mean the same thing as it did 100 years ago. But you haven't explained what it meant 100 years ago. You say the term is 'evolving', but you haven't even defined it yet. You have said gender is a 'spectrum', but what is it a spectrum of? Lots of things are on a spectrum. What makes 'gender' not 'autism' or 'light'?

Please define how you have used the word 'gender', without using the term 'gender' in your definition.

I think one could use "gender" to identify people as "he's a man" or "she's a woman" correctly, with confidence and appropriateness, a very high percentage of the time, since the vast majority of people happen to be born, live their lives, and die having been one or the other, a man or a woman, the whole time. Which is great; good for them, I guess.

But that doesn't account for everybody.

I hope that helps find common ground.

Sex is a biological fact, and sex in humans is immutable. Some people do not accept that but that's okay - they are beyond help.

Now, as humans, we have sex-segregated some activities, like sports. This sex-segregation recognises the physiological advantages that human males have over human females. Okay.

So, if sports are separated by sex, why should a male, no matter their 'gender identity' - which as far as I can ascertain is a thought in their head - be competing against females? Why should a thought in their head make it okay to let them compete with females?
 
... the definition [of gender], along with the overarching set of expectations/characteristics of what it means...is changing.

From what I can gather, there is no possible definition, even within a narrow context that is specified and clarified, that will put a stop to Metaphor's perpetual quest for definitions of gender as a set response to all questions challenging his view while using the word "gender".

Good explanation, though.

Circular definitions are not good.
 
... the definition [of gender], along with the overarching set of expectations/characteristics of what it means...is changing.

From what I can gather, there is no possible definition, even within a narrow context that is specified and clarified, that will put a stop to Metaphor's perpetual quest for definitions of gender as a set response to all questions challenging his view while using the word "gender".

Good explanation, though.

Circular definitions are not good.

So the definition is everything and nothing. Therefore, meaningless.
 
Nah. Several of you guys simply HATE Metaphor. So much so that you absolutely will not grant any respect or consideration to him whatsoever. I swear, he could say that the sky is blue and that 2+2=4... and half a dozen TFT posters will crawl out of the woodworks to argue that he's wrong and an evil bigot to boot.

FFS, I have rather strong disagreements with Met on several issues. But not all issues. And at least I have the presence of mind to view his arguments and perspectives on their own merits rather than through a hate-filled haze of assumed malice.

Actually no. It's obvious Metaphor has a REAL ISSUE with transgendered persons since the vast majority of posts that he starts are on the topic and derogatory.

Nope.

What's obvious is that the politically correct purists cannot recognize that some issues don't fit into their ideology. Like this one.

The physical aspects of sex don't matter in the overwhelming majority of human endeavors. In competitive sports it does. The male physique generally has a batch of advantages, in this one thing, over the female physique. But ideological purists cannot admit that not everything is as pure as they are. So they use insults and strawman arguments and handwaving rather than arguments.
Tom
 
Nah. Several of you guys simply HATE Metaphor. So much so that you absolutely will not grant any respect or consideration to him whatsoever. I swear, he could say that the sky is blue and that 2+2=4... and half a dozen TFT posters will crawl out of the woodworks to argue that he's wrong and an evil bigot to boot.

FFS, I have rather strong disagreements with Met on several issues. But not all issues. And at least I have the presence of mind to view his arguments and perspectives on their own merits rather than through a hate-filled haze of assumed malice.

Actually no. It's obvious Metaphor has a REAL ISSUE with transgendered persons since the vast majority of posts that he starts are on the topic and derogatory.

Nope.

What's obvious is that the politically correct purists cannot recognize that some issues don't fit into their ideology. Like this one.

The physical aspects of sex don't matter in the overwhelming majority of human endeavors. In competitive sports it does. The male physique generally has a batch of advantages, in this one thing, over the female physique. But ideological purists cannot admit that not everything is as pure as they are. So they use insults and strawman arguments and handwaving rather than arguments.
Tom

No. Not even the physical aspect of who has a penis or even testicles matters. We have plenty of humans in our world now who stand tribute to that.

In reality it is the hormonal exposures that one undergoes, and continues to undergo, which are the actual chemical driver for the physiological response.

This is what it all pivots on.

But in this situation of the actual post, not even that. It pivots on whether a person acknowledged by the IOC as a "woman", their judgement to do so, exhibited sportsperson-like conduct.

And I guess the whinges of people full of impotent rage that they dare acknowledge someone as they would be, not by the color or contents of her underwear but by her conduct, life, and identity
 
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