University of Otago student association gives "sportswoman of the year" award to a man.

[Loren Pechtel]

For 95+% of people, a simple division by sex in facilities like restrooms and locker/shower rooms works. And there is an option available for everyone, even if it's not their preference.

When it comes to the public's accomodations, the correct answer is (spaces for any single one), (spaces for nobody), (spaces for anyone who wishes) are acceptable. (Spaces for only some) is not 'public', at all; that is 'private'.

This kind of pontificating makes it hard to take you seriously. In a 50K seat football stadium, dividing the restrooms by sex doesn't make them "private". It's just being reasonable. You cannot just redefine words to suit your personal issues and expect the rest of us to give you special rights.
Tom

Unfortunately, whichever facility you send the trans people to there are issues.

Thus, how about a different approach? Build three facilities. Male/Female/Any. Any means any--it's not restricted to trans people. I think we would soon see that most people would regard it as a non-issue.

If you're building big facilities it's not going to make much difference--it means another door but little other costs as you still need the same amount of space and equipment. If you're building small stuff you've got what we see now--family restrooms.

 

[Emily Lake]

For me it's more that the award is intended to honor and recognize women in sport

If so, that wasn't mentioned. Like I pointed out, I don't claim to know all the details.
Tom

That was my understanding, but I could be mistaken. If it's a general award that can be granted to any person of any sex or gender, then I have no objections whatsoever.

 

[Emily Lake]

For 95+% of people, a simple division by sex in facilities like restrooms and locker/shower rooms works. And there is an option available for everyone, even if it's not their preference.

When it comes to the public's accomodations, the correct answer is (spaces for any single one), (spaces for nobody), (spaces for anyone who wishes) are acceptable. (Spaces for only some) is not 'public', at all; that is 'private'.

This kind of pontificating makes it hard to take you seriously. In a 50K seat football stadium, dividing the restrooms by sex doesn't make them "private". It's just being reasonable. You cannot just redefine words to suit your personal issues and expect the rest of us to give you special rights.
Tom

Unfortunately, whichever facility you send the trans people to there are issues.

Thus, how about a different approach? Build three facilities. Male/Female/Any. Any means any--it's not restricted to trans people. I think we would soon see that most people would regard it as a non-issue.

If you're building big facilities it's not going to make much difference--it means another door but little other costs as you still need the same amount of space and equipment. If you're building small stuff you've got what we see now--family restrooms.

Who would you place in the "Any" facility? What guidelines would you employ for housing? Would there be limitations or exclusions related to the type of crimes committed?

 

[none]

Unfortunately, whichever facility you send the trans people to there are issues.

Thus, how about a different approach? Build three facilities. Male/Female/Any. Any means any--it's not restricted to trans people. I think we would soon see that most people would regard it as a non-issue.

If you're building big facilities it's not going to make much difference--it means another door but little other costs as you still need the same amount of space and equipment. If you're building small stuff you've got what we see now--family restrooms.

Who would you place in the "Any" facility? What guidelines would you employ for housing? Would there be limitations or exclusions related to the type of crimes committed?

Geesh stranger danger, Gary Gygax paranoia..
Anything else?

 

[TomC]

For me it's more that the award is intended to honor and recognize women in sport

If so, that wasn't mentioned. Like I pointed out, I don't claim to know all the details.
Tom

That was my understanding, but I could be mistaken. If it's a general award that can be granted to any person of any sex or gender, then I have no objections whatsoever.

This is a big problem with vague global news concerning hot issues. It's hard to tell what really happened.

My interpretation was that a small school in New Zealand recognized a student for achievement. Your's seemed to be that a small school in New Zealand erased women's achievement. I doubt that those are mutually exclusive goals for the recognition. Some students wanted to recognize Hubbard for their reasons, others for other reasons. Then [MENTION=103]Metaphor[/MENTION]; started a thread on TFT.

I don't know why Obago Student Association decided to put Hubbard on the cover of their magazine. Nor do I care. It's their magazine. Why they decided to refer to Hubbard as "sportswoman" doesn't seem at all hard to understand. If Hubbard prefers being referred to as female it would be uncivilized to deny her that.
Tom

 

[Emily Lake]

Unfortunately, whichever facility you send the trans people to there are issues.

Thus, how about a different approach? Build three facilities. Male/Female/Any. Any means any--it's not restricted to trans people. I think we would soon see that most people would regard it as a non-issue.

If you're building big facilities it's not going to make much difference--it means another door but little other costs as you still need the same amount of space and equipment. If you're building small stuff you've got what we see now--family restrooms.

Who would you place in the "Any" facility? What guidelines would you employ for housing? Would there be limitations or exclusions related to the type of crimes committed?

Geesh stranger danger, Gary Gygax paranoia..
Anything else?

I genuinely have no idea at all how your post relates to this discussion, let alone the question that I asked.

 

[Metaphor]

For me it's more that the award is intended to honor and recognize women in sport

If so, that wasn't mentioned. Like I pointed out, I don't claim to know all the details.
Tom

That was my understanding, but I could be mistaken. If it's a general award that can be granted to any person of any sex or gender, then I have no objections whatsoever.

It was not a general award. Their 'sportsman' of the year also went to a biological male.

 

[Metaphor]

That was my understanding, but I could be mistaken. If it's a general award that can be granted to any person of any sex or gender, then I have no objections whatsoever.

This is a big problem with vague global news concerning hot issues. It's hard to tell what really happened.

My interpretation was that a small school in New Zealand recognized a student for achievement. Your's seemed to be that a small school in New Zealand erased women's achievement. I doubt that those are mutually exclusive goals for the recognition. Some students wanted to recognize Hubbard for their reasons, others for other reasons. Then @Metaphor; started a thread on TFT.

I don't know why Obago Student Association decided to put Hubbard on the cover of their magazine. Nor do I care. It's their magazine. Why they decided to refer to Hubbard as "sportswoman" doesn't seem at all hard to understand. If Hubbard prefers being referred to as female it would be uncivilized to deny her that.
Tom

Why would it be 'uncivilized'?

Do you think it is uncivilised to deny calling Rachel Dolezal black?

 

[Emily Lake]

That was my understanding, but I could be mistaken. If it's a general award that can be granted to any person of any sex or gender, then I have no objections whatsoever.

It was not a general award. Their 'sportsman' of the year also went to a biological male.

Let me clarify my position. If they generally give a "sportsman" and a "sportswoman" award each year, then I strongly prefer that the "sportswoman" award go to a female woman. If they give out a "sportsperson" award, and sometimes its a man sometimes its a woman, then I don't care.

I get prickly when both "sportsman" and "sportswoman" awards are going to males.

 

[Metaphor]

That was my understanding, but I could be mistaken. If it's a general award that can be granted to any person of any sex or gender, then I have no objections whatsoever.

It was not a general award. Their 'sportsman' of the year also went to a biological male.

Let me clarify my position. If they generally give a "sportsman" and a "sportswoman" award each year, then I strongly prefer that the "sportswoman" award go to a female woman. If they give out a "sportsperson" award, and sometimes its a man sometimes its a woman, then I don't care.

I get prickly when both "sportsman" and "sportswoman" awards are going to males.

I share the feeling.

 

[Emily Lake]

Let me clarify my position. If they generally give a "sportsman" and a "sportswoman" award each year, then I strongly prefer that the "sportswoman" award go to a female woman. If they give out a "sportsperson" award, and sometimes its a man sometimes its a woman, then I don't care.

I get prickly when both "sportsman" and "sportswoman" awards are going to males.

I share the feeling.

I'm waiting for a lesbian award to go to a bepenised person who is sexually attracted to vaginas. Then for a gay award to go to a vagina carrier who loves the dick.

 

[laughing dog]

That was my understanding, but I could be mistaken. If it's a general award that can be granted to any person of any sex or gender, then I have no objections whatsoever.

It was not a general award. Their 'sportsman' of the year also went to a biological male.

Let me clarify my position. If they generally give a "sportsman" and a "sportswoman" award each year, then I strongly prefer that the "sportswoman" award go to a female woman. If they give out a "sportsperson" award, and sometimes its a man sometimes its a woman, then I don't care.

I get prickly when both "sportsman" and "sportswoman" awards are going to males.

This particular award went to a person whose gender is female. "Sportwoman" can refer to gender. Why does it bother so many otherwise rational people that a "woman" can refer to sex or to gender when so many words have similar subtle but different meanings?

 

[Metaphor]

Let me clarify my position. If they generally give a "sportsman" and a "sportswoman" award each year, then I strongly prefer that the "sportswoman" award go to a female woman. If they give out a "sportsperson" award, and sometimes its a man sometimes its a woman, then I don't care.

I get prickly when both "sportsman" and "sportswoman" awards are going to males.

I share the feeling.

I'm waiting for a lesbian award to go to a bepenised person who is sexually attracted to vaginas. Then for a gay award to go to a vagina carrier who loves the dick.

You are already at least a decade too late. Trans men have been competing with men in gay subculture awards like "Mr Leather" and "Mr Gay World", and some have won. So, maybe it isn't a man's world after all.

 

[Emily Lake]

This particular award went to a person whose gender is female. "Sportwoman" can refer to gender. Why does it bother so many otherwise rational people that a "woman" can refer to sex or to gender when so many words have similar subtle but different meanings?

Because women are still not equal, still don't have full constitutional equal rights, still don't have fair representation in politics, still don't have fair representation in economics or arts or any number of other male-dominated endeavors. Because women are still treated like second class citizens in many social interactions, are talked over, expected to "be nice", and expected to shoosh and let the men drive the conversation. Because women are half the fucking population of the world, and have at best 5% of the power and authority globally. Because women are subjected to sexual harassment, sexual assault, domestic abuse, and other forms of sex-based violence at abominable rates even in developed first world nations.

So yeah, it stings a bit when men have been shitting on women for most of history, are still shitting on women today... and then men go and give one of the very few bits of recognition that we get, and they give it to a male.

Would you be so cavalier if an honor for the best black entertainer were given to a white person who identified as black? Would that seem appropriate to you?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Unfortunately, whichever facility you send the trans people to there are issues.

Thus, how about a different approach? Build three facilities. Male/Female/Any. Any means any--it's not restricted to trans people. I think we would soon see that most people would regard it as a non-issue.

If you're building big facilities it's not going to make much difference--it means another door but little other costs as you still need the same amount of space and equipment. If you're building small stuff you've got what we see now--family restrooms.

Who would you place in the "Any" facility? What guidelines would you employ for housing? Would there be limitations or exclusions related to the type of crimes committed?

Unless you're trans there's no obligation to use the any. If you're scared of opposite-sex genitals stay with the facilities of your gender.

 

[laughing dog]

This particular award went to a person whose gender is female. "Sportwoman" can refer to gender. Why does it bother so many otherwise rational people that a "woman" can refer to sex or to gender when so many words have similar subtle but different meanings?

Because women are still not equal, still don't have full constitutional equal rights, still don't have fair representation in politics, still don't have fair representation in economics or arts or any number of other male-dominated endeavors. Because women are still treated like second class citizens in many social interactions, are talked over, expected to "be nice", and expected to shoosh and let the men drive the conversation. Because women are half the fucking population of the world, and have at best 5% of the power and authority globally. Because women are subjected to sexual harassment, sexual assault, domestic abuse, and other forms of sex-based violence at abominable rates even in developed first world nations.

And that explains why using sportswoman to refer to gender by a university student club is such a crime? If this person had become a transwoman for no other reason than to get to the Olympics, I’d say your rant is a a persuasive argument. However, in this case, it appears to me from what little I have read, that Laurel Hubbard is sincere about her (yes her) gender. So, I think your rant is misplaced and unpersuasive.

Would you be so cavalier if an honor for the best black entertainer were given to a white person who identified as black? Would that seem appropriate to you?

From a student organization? As in the situation, I wouldn't even bat an eyelash.

 

[thebeave]

And that explains why using sportswoman to refer to gender by a university student club is such a crime? If this person had become a transwoman for no other reason than to get to the Olympics, I’d say your rant is a a persuasive argument. However, in this case, it appears to me from what little I have read, that Laurel Hubbard is sincere about her (yes her) gender. So, I think your rant is misplaced and unpersuasive.

Would you be so cavalier if an honor for the best black entertainer were given to a white person who identified as black? Would that seem appropriate to you?

From a student organization? As in the situation, I wouldn't even bat an eyelash.

I'm sure that would go over quite well with the African American student body, especially if the white student wore shoe polish black face and an afro wig.

Come to think of it, this is yet another example of when Woke and Racist come full circle and agree on something.

 

[Elixir]

I get prickly when both "sportsman" and "sportswoman" awards are going to males.

I share the feeling.

Maybe you ladies should set up your own awards and give them to whoever you see fit.

 

[TomC]

Unfortunately, whichever facility you send the trans people to there are issues.

Thus, how about a different approach? Build three facilities. Male/Female/Any. Any means any--it's not restricted to trans people. I think we would soon see that most people would regard it as a non-issue.

If you're building big facilities it's not going to make much difference--it means another door but little other costs as you still need the same amount of space and equipment. If you're building small stuff you've got what we see now--family restrooms.

Who would you place in the "Any" facility? What guidelines would you employ for housing? Would there be limitations or exclusions related to the type of crimes committed?

Unless you're trans there's no obligation to use the any. If you're scared of opposite-sex genitals stay with the facilities of your gender.

This was the only part of post 221 I took issue with.

Unfortunately, whichever facility you send the trans people to there are issues.

Based on my conversations with trans folks, even they don't usually have a problem. If your presentation and behavior don't attract attention, women ignore strangers about the way men do. Of course, changing/shower facilities are different, but those are relatively rare and usually not as needful as a quick pee.

Tom

 

[TomC]

Why would it be 'uncivilized'?

Do you think it is uncivilised to deny calling Rachel Dolezal black?

Based on what little I know, I thought Dolezal's treatment very shabby. Apparently, what she actually did earned her a good deal of respect amongst the politically correct. Then someone made it all about race.

So much for MLKj, and his "judged by the content of his character, not the color of his skin" bullshit. How quaintly obsolete in the modern world.
Tom