Usefulness of presidential pardons

[Tigers!]

Have been noticing a bit of flak about Trump's pardons and then reading up on previous presidential pardons. All presidents have received some flak, some more than others.

The possibility of corruption, malfeasance along with just plain stupidity of decisions makes me wonder if it has reached its limit.

Is there any talk of removing the presidential pardon or reducing its scope?

 

[ideologyhunter]

Wouldn't that be like saying, since Trump utterly corrupted the DOJ, no more DOJ?

 

[Keith&Co.]

Yes, Trump is morally bankrupt, doesn't mean the system serves no purpose.
But, g'head. Make a case for abolishing the power.

Or, what change would you make to fix it?

For example, I just learned you're not allowed to ask for a pardon for five years after sentencing, to ensure SOME price is paid. Which is why Roger Stone was so quick to say, "I'm not asking for a pardon, I'm praying for one." I would support all pardons HAVING to be 5 years after conviction. So Trump cannot write a pardon in 2017, to take effect in 2022. He'd have to be pres in 2022 to issue it.

 

[bilby]

Pardons are a royal prerogative from an era when kings were considered to be divinely appointed and inspired; When the non-existence of forensic science, or even a police force, meant that miscarriage of justice was commonplace; And when most crimes were capital crimes.

In such a society, it's politically expedient for the king to advertise his divinity by granting a stay of execution to a felon who may well be innocent.

Sadly for the USA, their office of president was established at a time when kings still had this power, and (as nobody really knew how to run a country without a king at that point) the President of the USA is essentially an elected king.

The monarchies of Europe largely eliminated pardons as power devolved to democratic institutions. But the executive power in the US never had to go through that process of stripping power from the executive and passing it to an elected assembly, because they thought that having an elected holder of the executive powers, with an elected legislature with the power of impeachment, would be sufficient to prevent abuse of that otherwise insanely powerful office.

It's not. Nothing good comes of giving a single individual the authority to overrule the justice system. It's a direct and obvious invitation to corruption, and the present incumbent is only the worst, and far from the sole, abuser of this outdated relic of monarchical power.

 

[southernhybrid]

A lot of people are talking about changing how pardons are done, but I'm skeptical that anything will change. The usual process includes a review by the Justice Department, and then if approved, it goes back to the president. But, Trump just pardons his cronies, while totally ignoring those who have been imprisoned for absurd prison sentences etc. The only one he pardoned who probably deserved it, was the woman who had a long prison term related to drugs. That's the one requested by one of the Kardashians. He probably did it because a celebrity asked for it.

I know a man who got a 17 year prison sentence for trying to sell a gun. He had a previous record for a non violent crime, so it was illegal of him to be in possession of a gun. He was a dumbass to do what he did, but he had obviously changed. He has a wife and young children and he used to do a lot of little jobs for my neighbor. He didn't deserve that sentence. I'd be happy to see people like him pardoned, but that's not what has happened under Trump.

What's really weird, is that the guy was awaiting sentencing for almost a year. He was trusted and didn't even have to wear an ankle bracelet. His wife and children live in my town, but he's in a federal prison in Florida, so his family can't even visit him for the most part. That seems cruel to me. Why can't non violent prisoners who have shown they've changed their behavior be given shorter sentences, community service or home confinement. We desperately need prison reform in this country. Sorry. I know I'm off topic, but it really makes me mad to see so many people sent to prison for long terms when they could be offered rehab, community service etc. I'd blame for profit prisons but they are only part of the problem.

 

[Swammerdami]

Technical questions:

Many federal crimes can also be prosecuted as state crimes in the state where they were committed, right? Or does the pardon also prevent state prosecution for those crimes?

And why can't a pardoned felon plead the Fifth Amendment, arguing testimony could incriminate him on other unpardoned or unpardonable offenses? (Can't such depositions be used as evidence by state prosecutors?)

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

The pardon is a check on government. It is being abused in this case. I'd rather a check on government be abused than not be there at all.

 

[Elixir]

The pardon is a check on government. It is being abused in this case. I'd rather a check on government be abused than not be there at all.

A tool used to DESTROY government isn't a "check". This so called "check" itself needs a check.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The pardon is a check on government. It is being abused in this case. I'd rather a check on government be abused than not be there at all.

Yup. I think there is value to the pardon, but nobody should be allowed to pardon associates.

 

[Politesse]

They're not going to pass through a constitutional amendment to limit or end a practice that benefits both Parties on a regular basis. How many crooks in Washington do you suppose are prepared to poke holes in their own golden parachute?

 

[Elixir]

The pardon is a check on government. It is being abused in this case. I'd rather a check on government be abused than not be there at all.

Yup. I think there is value to the pardon, but nobody should be allowed to pardon associates.

Very difficult to define a restriction in other than subjective ways ... "he's not an associate, your honor! He was a childhood schoolmate and an officer of a bank from which my client has taken loans, and the son of my client's former employer, but my client doesn't exactly ASSOCIATE with him!"
Or, "Your honor, this pardon is for someone whose brother was a Facebook Friend of the President's cousin's business partner - clearly an associate, and clearly corrupt!"

I don't see an easy way. We just saw what happens when the Republican Party is allowed to decide what is and is not corrupt, and what the American public is allowed to know about it. I suspect that a Unified Democratic administration would be better, as they have been in the past. But there are no guarantees.

 

[bilby]

The pardon is a check on government. It is being abused in this case. I'd rather a check on government be abused than not be there at all.

A tool used to DESTROY government isn't a "check". This so called "check" itself needs a check.

A pardon is a dictatorial power to overrule the judicial branch of government. It's a check on government in the same way that the infamous Enabling Act of 1933 was.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The pardon is a check on government. It is being abused in this case. I'd rather a check on government be abused than not be there at all.

Yup. I think there is value to the pardon, but nobody should be allowed to pardon associates.

Very difficult to define a restriction in other than subjective ways ... "he's not an associate, your honor! He was a childhood schoolmate and an officer of a bank from which my client has taken loans, and the son of my client's former employer, but my client doesn't exactly ASSOCIATE with him!"
Or, "Your honor, this pardon is for someone whose brother was a Facebook Friend of the President's cousin's business partner - clearly an associate, and clearly corrupt!"

I don't see an easy way. We just saw what happens when the Republican Party is allowed to decide what is and is not corrupt, and what the American public is allowed to know about it. I suspect that a Unified Democratic administration would be better, as they have been in the past. But there are no guarantees.

You're not going to be able to define it perfectly but denying it to anyone who takes his orders with no more than say one level in between, or anyone acting to benefit him.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

The pardon is a check on government. It is being abused in this case. I'd rather a check on government be abused than not be there at all.

A tool used to DESTROY government isn't a "check". This so called "check" itself needs a check.

I'm sorry the pardon profanes your beliefs.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

The pardon is a check on government. It is being abused in this case. I'd rather a check on government be abused than not be there at all.

A tool used to DESTROY government isn't a "check". This so called "check" itself needs a check.

A pardon is a dictatorial power to overrule the judicial branch of government. It's a check on government in the same way that the infamous Enabling Act of 1933 was.

Also, addition and subtraction are exactly the same thing.

 

[Elixir]

The pardon is a check on government. It is being abused in this case. I'd rather a check on government be abused than not be there at all.

A tool used to DESTROY government isn't a "check". This so called "check" itself needs a check.

I'm sorry the pardon profanes your beliefs.

Project ... much? I'm sorry that disallowing a corrupt President to act as a dictator offends your delicate sensibilities.
FWIW - I am definitely getting sick of winning. Hopefully January 6th can be the last time for a couple of years... if you contribute to the Trump Defense Fund you might be able to keep it going though.

 

[TomC]

They're not going to pass through a constitutional amendment to limit or end a practice that benefits both Parties on a regular basis. How many crooks in Washington do you suppose are prepared to poke holes in their own golden parachute?

Pretty much this.
There's tons of stuff I'd love to see overhauled in D.C. But the process for doing so gives huge power to the Swamp critters to modify them for their personal or partisan purposes.
Tom

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I'm sorry the pardon profanes your beliefs.

Project ... much? I'm sorry that disallowing a corrupt President to act as a dictator offends your delicate sensibilities.
FWIW - I am definitely getting sick of winning. Hopefully January 6th can be the last time for a couple of years... if you contribute to the Trump Defense Fund you might be able to keep it going though.

You want me to contribute to projects you support. Got it.

 

[Elixir]

There's tons of stuff I'd love to see overhauled in D.C. But the process for doing so gives huge power to the Swamp critters to modify them for their personal or partisan purposes.
Tom

Maybe stop voting for the Party that wants to do away with democracy and representative government.

 

[Elixir]

I'm sorry the pardon profanes your beliefs.

Project ... much? I'm sorry that disallowing a corrupt President to act as a dictator offends your delicate sensibilities.
FWIW - I am definitely getting sick of winning. Hopefully January 6th can be the last time for a couple of years... if you contribute to the Trump Defense Fund you might be able to keep it going though.

You want me to contribute to projects you support. Got it.

You know damn well that I don't support your jackass President. But being disingenuous is your only stock in trade. Welcome to the ignore list.