Vaccinations

[Angry Floof]

Measles quarantine issued at two California universities

 

[Gun Nut]

If I were going to pursue the issue I would start with CDC data not post references..

In industrialized nations with good nutrition and heath care what is the risk of death or impairment due to measles and other diseases as a child.

as to the question posed by the show I watched on the impact of multiple simultaneous vaccinations on a still developing immune system, that sounds like a good question to pursue. Unless I am mistaken this is a science forum is it not?

OK. As you sit there and read this, your body is currently battling dozens of infections and viruses. You are under constant attack... unless you are the boy in the bubble.. and your bubble is intact. "Feeling sick" is your body loosing the fight. Fortunately, most infections will not kill you... they "want" you to live to pass them on to another host. Most infections you are exposed to get their asses kicked by your immune system before they have a chance to make you feel sick at all. That little cut on your finger has allowed millions of enemies into your body.. but the worst off you have been is a little red and itchy around the wound. You are winning 99.99% of the time. You probably fought off the measles at least once in the past few years without even realizing it.

 

[thebeave]

Looks like there's a new rationale for not vaccinating:

https://www.today.com/health/brady-bunch-episode-fueling-efforts-against-measles-vaccine-t153029

Argumentum ad Brady Bunch?

 

[bilby]

Looks like there's a new rationale for not vaccinating:

https://www.today.com/health/brady-bunch-episode-fueling-efforts-against-measles-vaccine-t153029

Argumentum ad Brady Bunch?

That's not new - I heard it at least three years ago, and rolled my eyes so hard that I saw my brain.

 

[Angry Floof]

The cult of Scientology's cruise ship is infected with measles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ua2NFBEUVvk

What it's like on the Scientology measles ship right now according to former crew.

 

[RavenSky]

Why are the unvaccinated kids not also innocent?

People who vaccinate their children are unaffected by unvaccinated kids.

People who have compromised immune systems are affected by unvaccinated kids.

^^^ This. And babies still too young for vaccinations.

 

[George S]

People who have compromised immune systems are affected by unvaccinated kids.

^^^ This. And babies still too young for vaccinations.

It only takes approximately 90% vaccinated for the "halo effect" to work and protect the unvaccinated and unable to be vaccinated people. How can more than 10% have fallen for the anti-vax propaganda?

 

[Keith&Co.]

How can more than 10% have fallen for the anti-vax propaganda?

Well, it takes some effort. Years and years of laying anti-science, anti-intellectual groundwork done by conservatives, tying it to freedom (someone has to stand up to these experts), tying it to evolution...

 

[bilby]

How can more than 10% have fallen for the anti-vax propaganda?

Well, it takes some effort. Years and years of laying anti-science, anti-intellectual groundwork done by conservatives, tying it to freedom (someone has to stand up to these experts), tying it to evolution...

It also "helps" that they are not evenly distributed in society - anti-vaxxers form communities of like-minded people, just as religious and ethnic minorities do. A general population vaccination rates of 90% can easily imply a 95% rate in most towns, while a handful of enclaves have a 75% rate, or even lower.

Anti-vaxxers seem to have a significant overlap with belivers in other nonsense - crystal healing, essential oils, chiropractic, and all kinds of 'spiritual but not religious' woo.

It's a belief system for people who want to rebel against the nonsense of mainstream religions, without going to all the trouble of basing their new beliefs on facts or evidence.

ETA - the proportion of a population that needs to be vaccinated to get the benefit of herd immunity varies from disease to disease, as some are more readily transmitted than others. A disease that has a long infectious period, during which the patient is asymptomatic, coupled with a high rate of infection amongst those exposed and an ability to spread via very low volumes of airborne infectious agents (eg Measles) needs a far higher rate of immunity than a disease that spreads less readily.

The transmissibility of a disease can be summarised by the basic rate of infection, known as R₀, which is the number of people each infected person will infect, on average, during the course of their disease. If R₀<1, the disease will die out; If it is >1, the disease will spread. In unvaccinated populations, Measles has an R₀ of about 18, implying a herd immunity threshold of about 95%; By comparison, Influenza has an R₀ around 4, implying a herd immunity threshold that can be as low as 75%.

 

[George S]

Thanks for refining my approximation.

 

[steve_bank]

The media has reported a meshes epicenter being orthodox Jews in NYC.

A few years ago in the hospital I was placed in quarantine for being exposed to measles until a blood test found the antibody.
One of the aides had measles.

 

[Keith&Co.]

The media has reported a meshes epicenter being orthodox Jews in NYC.

A few years ago in the hospital I was placed in quarantine for being exposed to measles until a blood test found the antibody.
One of the aides had measles.

I was reading somewhere that a child's case of measles kept getting misdiagnosed, exactly because no one bloody gets measles these days. The docs had no experience with it and just never had cause to ask, "Hey, what if the kid has measles for no good goddamned reason?"

 

[RavenSky]

The media has reported a meshes epicenter being orthodox Jews in NYC.

A few years ago in the hospital I was placed in quarantine for being exposed to measles until a blood test found the antibody.
One of the aides had measles.

I was reading somewhere that a child's case of measles kept getting misdiagnosed, exactly because no one bloody gets measles these days. The docs had no experience with it and just never had cause to ask, "Hey, what if the kid has measles for no good goddamned reason?"

This mom wants you to know what measles did to her baby

https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/06/health/measles-baby-misdiagnosis-eprise/index.html

 

[chrisengland]

Just a quick question. I was having a debate with an anti-vaccer the other day. She said the FDA said smoking was good for you before, even though they knew it contained stuff that was bad. She said they are doing the same with vaccines. I'm not saying that is true, but is the smoking bit right?

 

[Treedbear]

Just a quick question. I was having a debate with an anti-vaccer the other day. She said the FDA said smoking was good for you before, even though they knew it contained stuff that was bad. She said they are doing the same with vaccines. I'm not saying that is true, but is the smoking bit right?

Sounds like conspiracy theorist propaganda. I couldn't find anything on google. Ask her for a reference.

 

[4321lynx]

Just a quick question. I was having a debate with an anti-vaccer the other day. She said the FDA said smoking was good for you before, even though they knew it contained stuff that was bad. She said they are doing the same with vaccines. I'm not saying that is true, but is the smoking bit right?

Sounds like conspiracy theorist propaganda. I couldn't find anything on google. Ask her for a reference.

Maybe she was thinking of Stramonium cigarettes for asthma?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2844275/

Some time in the year 1802, I received from General Gent a remedy that he had not long before brought from Madras, which, the General informed me, was used there as a specific for relieving the paroxysm of asthma, and that it was prepared from the roots of the wild purple-flowered thorn-apple (Datura ferox). The roots had been cut into slips as soon as gathered, dried in the shade, and then beat into fibres resembling coarse hemp. The mode of using it was by smoking it in a pipe at the time of the paroxysm, either by itself or mixed with tobacco.31

Having exhausted his supply of Indian Datura ferox, one of the beneficiaries of this novel treatment, a surgeon in Hackney, turned for relief to the common thorn-apple, Datura stramonium, which was also a member of the solanaceae family of plants that included henbane, deadly nightshade and mandrake and which appeared to have similar anti-spasmodic properties. Although the leaves and seeds of the thorn-apple were known to have dangerous narcotic effects, leading to its being referred to as “the Devil’s Apple” or one of the “witches’ weeds”, patient testimonies suggested that preparations of the stalks and roots were effective in relieving asthmatic paroxysms:

You are perfectly at liberty to make every use of my name respecting the stramonium you think proper, and may add, that I continue to derive increased good effects from the use of it. In truth, the asthma is destroyed! I drink beer, eat of every thing; and if my mind was as free from perplexity as my body is from asthma, I should again enjoy my existence. I never experienced torpor or any ill effect whatever; and I would rather be without life than without stramonium.32

Stramonium was enthusiastically adopted by asthmatic patients and their physicians. In promoting its use as a pain-reliever in 1816, Alexander Marcet noted that Datura stramonium was often “cultivated in some English gardens” expressly for the purpose of treating asthma.33

. Significantly, however, these factors did not entirely undermine the place of medicated cigarettes in the treatment of asthma: both clinicians and patients continued to rely on commercial powders and cigarettes containing stramonium, cubeb, lobelia, potash and eucalyptus well into the 1980s and 1990s. In addition, of course, the therapeutic principles of smoking or inhalation as a technique persisted in the form of inhalers designed to deliver bronchodilators, steroids and other active substances to diseased lungs.

 

[Gun Nut]

cigarettes were marketed as good for you because they make you feel relaxed. That was the gist of all the marketing for quite some time.

 

[ronburgundy]

Just a quick question. I was having a debate with an anti-vaccer the other day. She said the FDA said smoking was good for you before, even though they knew it contained stuff that was bad. She said they are doing the same with vaccines. I'm not saying that is true, but is the smoking bit right?

Even if the FDA had said that, it isn't relevant. The scientific community never said that. In fact, if the FDA "knew it was bad" that is because scientists were saying it was bad. She doesn't need to (and shouldn't) trust the FDA. They are a corruptable political organization that has approved unsafe, poorly tested products. Their biggest bias is to approve things, b/c they are only paid if they approve the products. So, FDA officers job security is tied to the number of products they approve.

However she should accept the science on vaccines and the overwhelming scientific consensus. In countries with free speech (another reason why it's the most important principle in modern society), there is no mechanism by which a conspiracy among all scientists could occur. Scientists make their name and thus their career by challenging what is "known" and disagreeing with other scientists, not by agreeing with each other. If there was any valid evidence that vaccines might not be generally safe or could cause autism, there would be many well established highly credible scientists making this point. There are only two ways you can get overwhelming scientific consensus on an issue: 1) The available evidence overwhelmingly supports that conclusion, or 2) Some fascist authority is using threats of violence to silence dissent among scientists.

Although Trump would likely try to silence scientific dissent on some issues (like Climate Change), it isn't plausible that even he could do so within the larger political context without very obvious overt use of force. Plus, that scientific consensus on vaccines existed long before Trump, Obama, or Bush, and exists across the world.

IOW, she doesn't really need to "trust" anyone. She just needs to apply a little rational thought when choosing between the plausibility that the worldwide scientific consensus is due to the actual evidence supporting that conclusion or some form of worldwide violent control of scientists.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

cigarettes were marketed as good for you because they make you feel relaxed. That was the gist of all the marketing for quite some time.

Cigarettes are a nicotine delivery system. Anyone who's known an addicted smoker understands how it works, how tobacco use helps them cope with stress because it gives them a slight relaxing buzz, just like alcohol does for some people. It's drug use and dependency, hardly the same thing as vaccinations.

 

[Keith&Co.]

Just a quick question. I was having a debate with an anti-vaccer the other day. She said the FDA said smoking was good for you before, even though they knew it contained stuff that was bad. She said they are doing the same with vaccines. I'm not saying that is true, but is the smoking bit right?

Citation needed. She is probably either remembering a Tobacco Company advertisement making wild claims before regulation made them stop that, or she's quoting another anti-Vacc who remembers an old TC advert.
But if you go back far enough, you find advertisements about the medical advantages of whiskey, laudanum, cocaine, and having monkey testicles sewn into a man's scrotum for extra virility. It was a medical fad for a while, there. So was mercury added to make-up.

But, quoting 'used to say' is not the same as actual modern evidence that supports faddish crazy. That's right up there with criticizing evolutionary theory using the caption under a picture in a 1909 geology textbook.